History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam?

[Viet]

Grand historian, thank for your explanation.

I like to add that the ranking or how importance of a nation within the tributes system caused some bad blood in Vietnam. The Ming placed Vietnam in the second place behind Korea, while the Qing put Vietnam far behind Korea and other countries.

During the reign of the Nguyen, in a tribute session the Qing placed the Nguyen below Laos, a country which was viewed as barbarian by Vietnam. emperor Ming Mang threatened to quit the tributes system and leave the chinese world order, because the chinese move was considered as insult, provocation to the vietnamese court.

Such a step of Vietnam, leaving the tributes system would result to dramatic consequences.

I just wonder if China ever considered to annex Korea?

 

[SimonTagawa]

If you actually believe in Korean nationalist historiography then so be it.

Keep in mind it was you that brought up the Khitans "relationship" with the Koreans.

They typical excuse is that the Chinese of Japanese burnt the glorious history of the Koreans and trying to hide the fact that Korean were the rulers of East Asia.

No, great historians don't spend their times on pseudo history,why do you think works written on the "Black" Egyptians,Chinese discovering the Americas,or even Korean Gojoseon are scorned by the international community?

Yes, I went off topic with that post because this thread is not on Korean's history.

To confess, my family is currently living and working in South Korea. I've studied, worked and lived in many different countries, including Russia, China to Malaysia. From Spain, Egypt to Japan. I can't say that I know a lot about history, but I do know a thing or two and would discuss more on the respective subject, but it will irritate you more than be helpful to your understanding.

I do admire your strong will to defend in what you believe in. Don't let your pride turn into prejudice.

Initially, when I started this account with my son, living in today's diverse world, I was hoping that he may find/learn the cohesiveness among our Asian cultures. However, I fail to read all the post in this forum as well as in other forums regarding the similar subject when opening an account for him. This is my mistake.

I hope by the time my other kids grows older, the Vietnam/China sea dispute would be resolved.

How do we opt out from receiving emails from this site?

 

[dichoi]

It originated from China,you don't seem to understand the Chinese already had the meaning in Hanzi while the Japanese merely combined them.

Which has nothing to do with 漢 being borrowed by Vietnamese as it was exclusively used to designate Chinese culture other than some toponyms.


Come back when you can actually read classical Chinese and refute his points.


Again you can't prove he's descended from who unless you have the Y DNA of both parties you are trying to link.

All this demonstrates is you're incapable of understanding that ethnic groups are fluid and that concepts change,if you cannot grasp the concept of anachronism then I can't help you.

Let's say my great grandfather was a Manchu,despite me being a Han,it would be erroneous to label my great grandfather a Han.

The Qin never called themselves Han Chinese and had no reason to,as Hanzhong wasn't the traditional land of the Qin and didn't exhibit any special qualities.

The 3 sovereigns and 5 emperors as well as Vietnamese myths are grounded in fantasy except that Chinese don't go as far as Vietnamese and claim the entirety of Southern China as their homeland.


Where's the flaw in my logic?

Sinicized means that they follow Chinese customs/laws etc. are you going to deny this?

I'm not Mao so how should I know?

Problem here is that Vietnamese used Han Zi in official writing system in the past. Han Nom words are created by Vietnamese elites, but were not permitted to be used in offical document or history chronicle text of Kingdom.

The word or name 漢 is existed from time of Han Dynasty ( 漢朝, 206 B.C.E. – 220 C.E.), not from northern Wei 北魏, this kingdom existed in China later on, 385 to 535. As I know it's Han Zhong, Han xui, two word is existed from ancient time in China. Han Dynasty created first idea about Han people from Zhongyuan. Chinese labelled his people following to the name of the dynasty Emperor who reigned the country. In case you dont believed that Qin Shihuang is Han Chinese in origin, Han Dynasty is first Dynasty of Han people. There is a reason why to day Chinese Majority people (92 % of Chinese nationality ) claimed himself as Han Chinese. Southern Chinese claimed their ancestor came to south from North China too.

So that the word Han 漢 is used in time of Nguyen Dynasty has a anonym to the majority people in idea to make different Han and Man, majority people and minority people in ethnicity.

Đại Nam thực lục (大南實錄) is the official chronicle History book of Nguyễn Dynasty, in the same stylish of Han van 漢文, Vietnamese Kinh people as was in majority ethnic, was called as Han people 漢 人 and Chinese immigrant was called Tang ren 唐 人, Khmer krom was called Chenla people and other people on Montagnag was called Man (moi in Vietnamese) people. Does it mean that Hua people in Vietnam in Nguyen Dynasty era is not sinized ?

when you like to talking about influence òf Chinese culture in Vietnam, I would like to quote here again What is "Binh Ngo Dai Cao" stated; 南 北 之 風 俗亦 異. The costoms of North (China) and South (Vietnam) is different (Phong tục bắc nam cũng khác).

using of term 漢 人 to the majority ethnic in Vietnam is not evident for that Vietnamese Kinh people culturally is sinized.

Chinese borrowed the word for example coca cola 可口可乐 has led to 可乐 becoming the common Chinese noun for all sodas. when coca cola and sodas is different.

 

[Grand Historian]

Problem here is that Vietnamese used Han Zi in official writing system in the past. Han Nom words are created by Vietnamese elites, but were not permitted to be used in offical document or history chronicle text of Kingdom.

The word or name 漢 is existed from time of Han Dynasty ( 漢朝, 206 B.C.E. – 220 C.E.), not from northern Wei 北魏, this kingdom existed in China later on, 385 to 535. As I know it's Han Zhong, Han xui, two word is existed from ancient time in China. Han Dynasty created first idea about Han people from Zhongyuan. Chinese labelled his people following to the name of the dynasty Emperor who reigned the country. In case you dont believed that Qin Shihuang is Han Chinese in origin, Han Dynasty is first Dynasty of Han people. There is a reason why to day Chinese Majority people (92 % of Chinese nationality ) claimed himself as Han Chinese. Southern Chinese claimed their ancestor came to south from North China too.

So that the word Han 漢 is used in time of Nguyen Dynasty has a anonym to the majority people in idea to make different Han and Man, majority people and minority people in ethnicity.

Đại Nam thực lục (大南實錄) is the official chronicle History book of Nguyễn Dynasty, in the same stylish of Han van 漢文, Vietnamese Kinh people as was in majority ethnic, was called as Han people 漢 人 and Chinese immigrant was called Tang ren 唐 人, Khmer krom was called Chenla people and other people on Montagnag was called Man (moi in Vietnamese) people. Does it mean that Hua people in Vietnam in Nguyen Dynasty era is not sinized ?

when you like to talking about influence òf Chinese culture in Vietnam, I would like to quote here again What is "Binh Ngo Dai Cao" stated; 南 北 之 風 俗亦 異. The costoms of North (China) and South (Vietnam) is different (Phong tục bắc nam cũng khác).

using of term 漢 人 to the majority ethnic in Vietnam is not evident for that Vietnamese Kinh people culturally is sinized.

Chinese borrowed the word for example coca cola 可口可乐 has led to 可乐 becoming the common Chinese noun for all sodas. when coca cola and sodas is different.

I advise you to read "BECOMING ZHONGGUO, BECOMING HAN: TRACING AND RE-CONCEPTUALIZING ETHNICITY IN ANCIENT NORTH CHINA, 770 BC - AD 581",Critical Han Studies The History, Representation, and Identity of China’s Majority
8. Hushuo The Northern Other and the Naming of the Han Chinese" instead before further embarrassing yourself.

Do you or do you not understand what anachronism is?

If my descendants were ruled by Vietnamese and called themselves Kinh,that doesn't mean I thought of myself as Kinh Vietnamese,I would still be Han Chinese.

Han as an concept didn't exist in Qin Shihuang's mind of his contemporary,even the Jin called themselves 華 not 漢.

If it wasn't for nomads ruling China there would be no 漢,as the Xianbei literally thought the Han dynasty still existed therefore when they conquered Northern China the natives were labeled as 漢.

While the Xiongnu labeled their subjects 秦 after the dynasty.

The Xianbei never called themselves 漢 and tried to call themselves 華 even as going as far to call the Southern dynasties as 夷.

Which manifested in 3 ways
1.As an ethnic label for Sinitic speakers of Northern China
2.The fallen Han dynasty
3 A crude slang meaning the average man

While the Tang used 漢 as a nationality which applied to Xianbei/Han ie all the emperor's subjects while 華 was preferred.

Which manifested in 4 ways
1.The Tang as a political polity and its subjects
2.The fallen Han dynasty
3 A crude slang meaning the average man
4.The central plains as a toponym

The Khitans called themselves 契丹,the Tanguts used 番(Mi in their language).

This practice was revived by the Khitans and Tanguts who labeled the Northern/Southern Song as 漢 while Khitans referring to their own Chinese subjects as 漢 or 趙(due to the Song imperial household) and the Tanguts calling their own Chinese subjects Za which doesn't correspond with 漢.

While Northern Song had frontier soldiers referring to themselves as 漢 while literati and nobles disproved of this and Emperor Huizong even issued an edict banning referencing the Northern Song as 漢 or 唐.

While Southern Song no one retained the use of 漢, while 唐 was popular amongst the lower classes while the elite preferred 華.

While Jurchens also used 漢 for the native Sinitic speakers and for "Chinese" terms such as Chinese writing,language,customs,surnames,culture etc,while the Jurchens hated the term 番(unlike the Khitans,Tibetans and Tanguts)and flogged those who used it for them or their subjects/state.

So in reality 漢 was used as a substitute for Chinese dynasty,people and culture.

You are just a revisionist troll who seeks to underplay Chinese influence,漢 meant that the Vietnamese Sinicized,while your case of Chinese calling themselves 唐 doesn't work either as it was used exclusively for Chinese.

Why do you think terms 漢字,漢姓,漢方,漢語,漢風,漢地 all exist?

Are you seriously going to argue that 漢 isn't Chinese?

 

[Viva_China]

Hi,三泰虎

 

[Turn-Coat]

The problem here, as is with other forums is that people continues to bring up old history of rivalry which has come to past hundreds and thousand of years ago. Let them remain in the past. Vietnam has its own distinct history and culture and China has theirs. Let us not mix the two together. Surely there are some similarities through trades and commerce over centuries between neighboring countries. Rather, we should focus on the more modern, distinctively developed culture and history of the two nationality, without mentioning their past or present conflicts to keep things neutral.

As for "文化不改" (what is written can not be changed), this is simply because erasers were not invented yet at the time when the metaphor was in use. It is irrelevant to today's thinking.

If this is about the China/Vietnam sea dispute like in many other forums I have encountered, let the two country resolve this amongst themselves. A few politicians' greed in making themselves richer by making their people do the fighting for them are known as cowards behind the desk if you asked me. If these debates are about your national prides, do you still consider these countries your nation of allegiance? If your parents and ancestors left either China or Vietnam's communist regime so that you may have a better life, then, why should you care what the leaders of these two nations are disputing about now. They didn't care for your love ones' life when they drove them out. Unless you are presently living in these communist countries trying to find your own ways out, then, best of luck to you.

To quote Napoleon Bonaparte, "We are either Kings or pawns of men". Let us not be pawns for these politicians.

"In order to rally people, governments need enemies. They want us to be afraid, to hate, so we will rally behind them. And if they do not have a real enemy, they will invent one in order to mobilize us".
-Abbott Thích Nhất Hạnh

With that said, let us overseas brethren, Courageous Viet (Hùng Việt) and Good Han (好漢), join as one to learn the mistake in both our histories so that we may respect each other's enduring cultures, and in the future, we may aid with liberating our people and the people of Tibetan from these tyrants and rewrite the last part of our history in unity, for the better good of humanity.

I only signed up here in order to express myself. No need to reply.

 

[John2323]

Nan Yue Guo was conquered by Han Dynasty. United States founded by English men but became Independence State.

First, Han Dynasty did not conquered Nan Yue. Zhao Tuo, the founder and the king of Nan Yue, is a chinese, himself accepted to be ruled by Han Dynasty and also as part of Han Dynasty, without war. Because he is a chinese. 90 years later, a powerful minister, whose chinese name is Lv Jia, killed the King Zhao Xing and betrayed Han Dynasty. So, the emperor, Han Wu Di, revenged for his vassal Zhao Xing and eliminated Nan Yue usurped by Lv Jia.

Funny. Very hard to meet some thoughtful viet guys as you and Viet the poster . Most of viet guys are very angry but only angry. They do not know the history between China and Viet except what in their imagination of what the mouthpiece told them. My friend, China and Viet have natural kinship. And, publicizing the anti-China rhetoric is not a good choice for Vietnam. Because the heaven is to far for Vietnam while China is so close. If you have a powerful neighbor, you can only move out or accept the reality. Can Vietnam move out? So, learn Mexico and Canada. More hostile act only give Vietnam more hurt. Because as you know, even the Soviet Union swear to protect Viet, China still beated Vietnam in 1979, and tell me what the Soviet Union did for you? No even one country in the earth can and will fight with China for Viet. The war incited by Soviet Union made Vietnam lost the best chance to develop in 1980s. At the same time, South Korea, Taiwan, and Malaysia accept the preliminary industrialization. My opinion is that, Vietnam willlingly act as a pathetic tool of Soviet Union to aim at China hurt yourself too much. Orelse, the industrious and clever Vietnamese could build a much better country like South Korea. And as you know, South Korea provoked China and also learned something in 1950s. Still, USA can not protect it. Again, no country can protect littile state if China want to beat them. Luckly, the last 30 years, China fucosed on economicconstruction. So, From Korean War, South Korea government learned to provoke China, just as they did in most time of the last 2000 years. You need to know, Korea is the best and welcome dependency in the eyes of many Chinese Emperors in a long history.
I understand my Viet friends and also feel pity for you. But as I say, Vietnam cannot move out. You only can accept it.

 

[dichoi]

I advise you to read "BECOMING ZHONGGUO, BECOMING HAN: TRACING AND RE-CONCEPTUALIZING ETHNICITY IN ANCIENT NORTH CHINA, 770 BC - AD 581",Critical Han Studies The History, Representation, and Identity of China’s Majority
8. Hushuo The Northern Other and the Naming of the Han Chinese" instead before further embarrassing yourself.
Do you or do you not understand what anachronism is?

What do you mean about that ? this is Latin terminology. Dont try to playing with such big wording. I don't care how do you do to show of yourself. You can say simply that I have been made a mistake when I have been dating back Han Zi word from Northern Wei back to Qin Dynasty. There is my point of view, the word Han was existed like in Han Zhong in ancient time of China. There is the root of this word.

Here is forum for public discussion,not for elites.

If my descendants were ruled by Vietnamese and called themselves Kinh,that doesn't mean I thought of myself as Kinh Vietnamese,I would still be Han Chinese.
Han as an concept didn't exist in Qin Shihuang's mind of his contemporary,even the Jin called themselves 華 not 漢.

when you was Jiao Zhi (Van Lang) ren or Lou Yue ren from China, your descents are immigrated to Vietnam and they are living in Vietnam now, you are also called both as Jiao Zi ren or Kinh ren , It is the same in ethnicity group, just a different a noun that Jiao Zhi ren is ancestor of Kinh ren in Vietnam, shared a same bloodline. Like 華 and 漢.

If it wasn't for nomads ruling China there would be no 漢,as the Xianbei literally thought the Han dynasty still existed therefore when they conquered Northern China the natives were labeled as 漢.
While the Xiongnu labeled their subjects 秦 after the dynasty.
The Xianbei never called themselves 漢 and tried to call themselves 華 even as going as far to call the Southern dynasties as 夷.
Which manifested in 3 ways
1.As an ethnic label for Sinitic speakers of Northern China
2.The fallen Han dynasty
3 A crude slang meaning the average man
While the Tang used 漢 as a nationality which applied to Xianbei/Han ie all the emperor's subjects while 華 was preferred.
Which manifested in 4 ways
1.The Tang as a political polity and its subjects
2.The fallen Han dynasty
3 A crude slang meaning the average man
4.The central plains as a toponym
The Khitans called themselves 契丹,the Tanguts used 番(Mi in their language).
This practice was revived by the Khitans and Tanguts who labeled the Northern/Southern Song as 漢 while Khitans referring to their own Chinese subjects as 漢 or 趙(due to the Song imperial household) and the Tanguts calling their own Chinese subjects Za which doesn't correspond with 漢.
While Northern Song had frontier soldiers referring to themselves as 漢 while literati and nobles disproved of this and Emperor Huizong even issued an edict banning referencing the Northern Song as 漢 or 唐.
While Southern Song no one retained the use of 漢, while 唐 was popular amongst the lower classes while the elite preferred 華.
While Jurchens also used 漢 for the native Sinitic speakers and for "Chinese" terms such as Chinese writing,language,customs,surnames,culture etc,while the Jurchens hated the term 番(unlike the Khitans,Tibetans and Tanguts)and flogged those who used it for them or their subjects/state.
So in reality 漢 was used as a substitute for Chinese dynasty,people and culture.

What you said above is just approved my idea, this people you mentioned, they should been "Sinized" and became Han Chinese when they assimilated with Han Chinese and speak mandarin, including Sothern Han Chinese. Other than Tibetan, Hui, Uijgur, Zhuang... etc they are different ethnic group in China.

You are just a revisionist troll who seeks to underplay Chinese influence,漢 meant that the Vietnamese Sinicized,while your case of Chinese calling themselves 唐 doesn't work either as it was used exclusively for Chinese.
Why do you think terms 漢字,漢姓,漢方,漢語,漢風,漢地 all exist?
Are you seriously going to argue that 漢 isn't Chinese?

I would like to remind you that Confucius is living in Spring and Autumn(551–479 BC) before Qin Xihuang (260–210 BC). When you said that Han漢 Culture is Chinese culture. It was original from Spring and Autumn.There is core item or root of Chinese Culture.

I don't deny that Confucius, he was a Chinese teacher, editor, politician, and philosopher of Spring and Autumn period of Chinese history, was influenced in to Red River Delta elites from time domination of Han Dynasty 2,000 year ago, not from time of Nguyen Dynasty as western scholars said recently.

What you said about people in Northern Wei claimed themselves as Han Ren, in majority people to make distinct from Nomad rulers.it is just approved again my idea that Han Ren has another meaning to label a people were civilized, they are not barbarian. or the concept

 

[Grand Historian]

What do you mean about that ? this is Latin terminology. Dont try to playing with such big wording. I don't care how do you do to show of yourself. You can say simply that I have been made a mistake when I have been dating back Han Zi word from Northern Wei back to Qin Dynasty. There is my point of view, the word Han was existed like in Han Zhong in ancient time of China. There is the root of this word.

Here is forum for public discussion,not for elites.

It doesn't matter what your opinion is, multiple papers have shown that Northern Wei was the first time 漢 was used an ethonym.

The word anachronism is used in basic schooling if you don't understand it then your English isn't sufficient.

when you was Jiao Zhi (Van Lang) ren or Lou Yue ren from China, your descents are immigrated to Vietnam and they are living in Vietnam now, you are also called both as Jiao Zi ren or Kinh ren , It is the same in ethnicity group, just a different a noun that Jiao Zhi ren is ancestor of Kinh ren in Vietnam, shared a same bloodline. Like 華 and 漢.

How does a basic analogy elude you?

If my descendants are Vietnamese it doesn't mean I'm Vietnamese.

Except Van Lang doesn't exist and Luo Yue has more than one descendant.

What you said above is just approved my idea, this people you mentioned, they should been "Sinized" and became Han Chinese when they assimilated with Han Chinese and speak mandarin, including Sothern Han Chinese. Other than Tibetan, Hui, Uijgur, Zhuang... etc they are different ethnic group in China.

You don't seem to consider that the nomadic invader never labeled themselves 漢 while labeling the indigenous Sinitic speakers 漢.

They didn't all assimilate the Xiongnu and Jie were massacred by Ran Min,Murong Xianbei met their end by the Tuoba,also the rivalry between Khitans/Jurchens/Mongols didn't help population growth either.

While Southern Han Chinese did absorb native populations a great majority of their paternal ancestry comes from the Central Plains,otherwise you can't discount the Y haplogroup proportions between Henan and Fujian Han.

Even so all Southern Han Chinese speak a Sinitic language not Austronesian/Austro Asiatic/Tai Kadai etc.

I would like to remind you that Confucius is living in Spring and Autumn(551–479 BC) before Qin Xihuang (260–210 BC). When you said that Han漢 Culture is Chinese culture. It was original from Spring and Autumn.There is core item or root of Chinese Culture.

I don't deny that Confucius, he was a Chinese teacher, editor, politician, and philosopher of Spring and Autumn period of Chinese history, was influenced in to Red River Delta elites from time domination of Han Dynasty 2,000 year ago, not from time of Nguyen Dynasty as western scholars said recently.

What you said about people in Northern Wei claimed themselves as Han Ren, in majority people to make distinct from Nomad rulers.it is just approved again my idea that Han Ren has another meaning to label a people were civilized, they are not barbarian. or the concept

Again how can 漢 exist during the Spring and Autumn/Warring States,its anachronistic to label Confucius a 漢.

Are you serious,after all the information I had typed out you still don't understand the concept of 漢?

The Han Chinese of the Northern Wei only started calling themselves 漢 because the Xianbei started calling them that,otherwise they used 趙,晉 or 華.

If 漢 meant being civilized then it wouldn't make sense for the Xianbei to not use the term.

Rather the Xianbei used 華 which applied to all citizens of Northern Wei,essentially diluting an ethnoym into a nationality/culture.

 

[Viet]

Hi @SimonTagawa,

as you live in Korea, can you tell me some about the people and the country? how are our Viet people in Korea?

First, Han Dynasty did not conquered Nan Yue. Zhao Tuo, the founder and the king of Nan Yue, is a chinese, himself accepted to be ruled by Han Dynasty and also as part of Han Dynasty, without war. Because he is a chinese. 90 years later, a powerful minister, whose chinese name is Lv Jia, killed the King Zhao Xing and betrayed Han Dynasty. So, the emperor, Han Wu Di, revenged for his vassal Zhao Xing and eliminated Nan Yue usurped by Lv Jia.

Funny. Very hard to meet some thoughtful viet guys as you and Viet the poster . Most of viet guys are very angry but only angry. They do not know the history between China and Viet except what in their imagination of what the mouthpiece told them. My friend, China and Viet have natural kinship. And, publicizing the anti-China rhetoric is not a good choice for Vietnam. Because the heaven is to far for Vietnam while China is so close. If you have a powerful neighbor, you can only move out or accept the reality. Can Vietnam move out? So, learn Mexico and Canada. More hostile act only give Vietnam more hurt. Because as you know, even the Soviet Union swear to protect Viet, China still beated Vietnam in 1979, and tell me what the Soviet Union did for you? No even one country in the earth can and will fight with China for Viet. The war incited by Soviet Union made Vietnam lost the best chance to develop in 1980s. At the same time, South Korea, Taiwan, and Malaysia accept the preliminary industrialization. My opinion is that, Vietnam willlingly act as a pathetic tool of Soviet Union to aim at China hurt yourself too much. Orelse, the industrious and clever Vietnamese could build a much better country like South Korea. And as you know, South Korea provoked China and also learned something in 1950s. Still, USA can not protect it. Again, no country can protect littile state if China want to beat them. Luckly, the last 30 years, China fucosed on economicconstruction. So, From Korean War, South Korea government learned to provoke China, just as they did in most time of the last 2000 years. You need to know, Korea is the best and welcome dependency in the eyes of many Chinese Emperors in a long history.
I understand my Viet friends and also feel pity for you. But as I say, Vietnam cannot move out. You only can accept it.

yes, that is an undeniable fact, that we are neighbors. the second undeniable fact we both have unfortunately different views.
anyway, welcome to the forum my friend.

 

[Andrei]

Vietnamese food is of course not better than chinese food, chinese food is much much better than vietnamese food, just go around in Europe, almost all chinese Restaurant run by Vietnamese.
But vietnamese made bad chinese food. and it makes us unhappy. I am in Germany, we paid in chinese restaurant but later found it was not real chinese food.

 

[Rechoice]

First, Han Dynasty did not conquered Nan Yue. Zhao Tuo, the founder and the king of Nan Yue, is a chinese, himself accepted to be ruled by Han Dynasty and also as part of Han Dynasty, without war. Because he is a chinese. 90 years later, a powerful minister, whose chinese name is Lv Jia, killed the King Zhao Xing and betrayed Han Dynasty. So, the emperor, Han Wu Di, revenged for his vassal Zhao Xing and eliminated Nan Yue usurped by Lv Jia.

Funny. Very hard to meet some thoughtful viet guys as you and Viet the poster . Most of viet guys are very angry but only angry. They do not know the history between China and Viet except what in their imagination of what the mouthpiece told them. My friend, China and Viet have natural kinship. And, publicizing the anti-China rhetoric is not a good choice for Vietnam. Because the heaven is to far for Vietnam while China is so close. If you have a powerful neighbor, you can only move out or accept the reality. Can Vietnam move out? So, learn Mexico and Canada. More hostile act only give Vietnam more hurt. Because as you know, even the Soviet Union swear to protect Viet, China still beated Vietnam in 1979, and tell me what the Soviet Union did for you? No even one country in the earth can and will fight with China for Viet. The war incited by Soviet Union made Vietnam lost the best chance to develop in 1980s. At the same time, South Korea, Taiwan, and Malaysia accept the preliminary industrialization. My opinion is that, Vietnam willlingly act as a pathetic tool of Soviet Union to aim at China hurt yourself too much. Orelse, the industrious and clever Vietnamese could build a much better country like South Korea. And as you know, South Korea provoked China and also learned something in 1950s. Still, USA can not protect it. Again, no country can protect littile state if China want to beat them. Luckly, the last 30 years, China fucosed on economicconstruction. So, From Korean War, South Korea government learned to provoke China, just as they did in most time of the last 2000 years. You need to know, Korea is the best and welcome dependency in the eyes of many Chinese Emperors in a long history.
I understand my Viet friends and also feel pity for you. But as I say, Vietnam cannot move out. You only can accept it.

idiot chinese.

we are small nation, but we stay here to watching how chinese were enslaving by Nomat, Mongolian, Manchus in the past and white man and Japanese recently. China will be collapsed like it was in the past.

Vietnamese food is of course not better than chinese food, chinese food is much much better than vietnamese food, just go around in Europe, almost all chinese Restaurant run by Vietnamese.
But vietnamese made bad chinese food. and it makes us unhappy. I am in Germany, we paid in chinese restaurant but later found it was not real chinese food.

It is business.

 

[Turn-Coat]

Funny. Very hard to meet some thoughtful viet guys as you and Viet the poster . Most of viet guys are very angry but only angry. They do not know the history between China and Viet except what in their imagination of what the mouthpiece told them. My friend, China and Viet have natural kinship. And, publicizing the anti-China rhetoric is not a good choice for Vietnam. Because the heaven is to far for Vietnam while China is so close. If you have a powerful neighbor, you can only move out or accept the reality. Can Vietnam move out? So, learn Mexico and Canada. More hostile act only give Vietnam more hurt. Because as you know, even the Soviet Union swear to protect Viet, China still beated Vietnam in 1979, and tell me what the Soviet Union did for you? No even one country in the earth can and will fight with China for Viet. The war incited by Soviet Union made Vietnam lost the best chance to develop in 1980s. At the same time, South Korea, Taiwan, and Malaysia accept the preliminary industrialization. My opinion is that, Vietnam willlingly act as a pathetic tool of Soviet Union to aim at China hurt yourself too much. Orelse, the industrious and clever Vietnamese could build a much better country like South Korea. And as you know, South Korea provoked China and also learned something in 1950s. Still, USA can not protect it. Again, no country can protect littile state if China want to beat them. Luckly, the last 30 years, China fucosed on economicconstruction. So, From Korean War, South Korea government learned to provoke China, just as they did in most time of the last 2000 years. You need to know, Korea is the best and welcome dependency in the eyes of many Chinese Emperors in a long history.
I understand my Viet friends and also feel pity for you. But as I say, Vietnam cannot move out. You only can accept it.

Oh, hey.

I just wanted to clarify myself on my previous post. I am not telling anyone to make a martyr of themselves. Simply put it, in my own personal opinion (which is fine if you all don't agree with me), these corrupted politicians/dictators have utilized their cunning skills in speeches and in writing to manipulate the mass population in order to rise to the position they are currently in, and after doing so, they abuse the powers that is entrusted to them by their people.

As they have used their skills to rise to power, we shall use ours skills, in speech and writing, to spread their unkindly deeds to make them fall and let their people erase their names from their history, or create enough pressure on them so that they may curl their tails between their legs, in that sense. We shall force them to re-evaluate themselves to change their arrogant ways, and hopefully, reform their government to improve their citizen's welfare.

Sorry this might be a bit long.

Most of us have heard through news and other mediums or have witnessed the forceful relocation of families from their hereditary land and homes. Forcing many mainlanders into modern slavery; to compete for jobs in the city and live as low paying, low income city dwellers in under-developed housing systems or even worst, into these so-called 6'x3' "cage homes" without its own water supplying sources. There are more than 20 to 30 people sharing one restroom in these run-down buildings.

What was once a great nation with rich respectably proud history, such as China, have now succumb this insult!? Allowing ignorant tyrants to run/ruin the country? How can any of us turn a blind eye, sitting around here to discuss about great leaders and heroes of old, while this is currently go on?

I do thank you, Sir, for your forewarning and concerns. You sound like a person who wags his tails. Please relay this message back to your master.

 

[xesy]

Vietnamese food is of course not better than chinese food, chinese food is much much better than vietnamese food, just go around in Europe, almost all chinese Restaurant run by Vietnamese.
But vietnamese made bad chinese food. and it makes us unhappy. I am in Germany, we paid in chinese restaurant but later found it was not real chinese food.

Dude, it's hard to say which countries has better food. It's all based on taste. For example us Easterners think snails are grossed, but French think of it as a delicacy. Westerners then cannot understand why we eat things like cats, dog, monkey, horses, snakes, insects, etc.
I believe Chinese has a saying "Eat Chinese food, live in Western house, marry Japanese wife". I guess that is still true. China surely has an edge on cooking culture because it has such a large population to feed everyday and a rich and intact history line to record all the important cooking experience.

 

[dichoi]

It doesn't matter what your opinion is, multiple papers have shown that Northern Wei was the first time 漢 was used an ethonym.
The word anachronism is used in basic schooling if you don't understand it then your English isn't sufficient.

What is an anachronism is not secret terminology in English, bro. (Noun, something or someone that is not in its correct historical or chronological time, esp. a thing or person that belongs to an earlier time. .., object, event, etc., is assigned a date or period other than the correct one)

I copy here for you, again what I believed that this is correct: "people of Han" (漢人) is existed from time of Han Dynasty.

" As a result of the Han Dynasty's prominence, in inter-ethnic and inter-(premodern)-national matters, many Chinese began identifying themselves as "people of Han" (漢人), a name that has since been carried down"

Han Chinese - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the time of Northern Wei 北魏, (386–535) , Han people is still claimed themselves as "people of Han" (漢人) , discriminated majority people "are civilized" from minority people from Nomad tribes rulers considered "are barbarian" by Chinese scholars.

How does a basic analogy elude you?
If my descendants are Vietnamese it doesn't mean I'm Vietnamese.
Except Van Lang doesn't exist and Luo Yue has more than one descendant.

Its stranger when you did not understood my idea. Hanzu 漢 族 and Huaxia zu people 華夏族 are shared same bloodline and ethnic group.

You are Han, your descendant is ruled by Vietnamese, your descendant is Hua ren or Tang ren, or Minh Huong. Your descendanr does not shared bloodline with Vietnamese/Kinh people, so can not considered as Viet/king in ethnicity. He could have Vietnamese citizenship only.

You don't seem to consider that the nomadic invader never labeled themselves 漢 while labeling the indigenous Sinitic speakers 漢.
They didn't all assimilate the Xiongnu and Jie were massacred by Ran Min,Murong Xianbei met their end by the Tuoba,also the rivalry between Khitans/Jurchens/Mongols didn't help population growth either.
While Southern Han Chinese did absorb native populations a great majority of their paternal ancestry comes from the Central Plains,otherwise you can't discount the Y haplogroup proportions between Henan and Fujian Han.
Even so all Southern Han Chinese speak a Sinitic language not Austronesian/Austro Asiatic/Tai Kadai etc.

北魏 (386-534) annihilated the empire of 北涼 (398-439) in the far west. Except four states ( 西涼, 北燕, 前涼 and the 魏冉), all other empires, kingdoms and polities in the north were founded by Non-Chinese 漢 persons.

They came from the "five barbarian" peoples (wuhu 五胡) of the Xianbei 鮮卑, Jie 羯, Qiang 羌, Di 氐 and Xiongnu 匈奴 (including the Lushui 盧水 and Tiefu 鐵弗 tribes). They don't speak Mandarin Sino-Tibetan language. They are minority people of China.

Again how can 漢 exist during the Spring and Autumn/Warring States,its anachronistic to label Confucius a 漢.
Are you serious,after all the information I had typed out you still don't understand the concept of 漢?
The Han Chinese of the Northern Wei only started calling themselves 漢 because the Xianbei started calling them that,otherwise they used 趙,晉 or 華.
If 漢 meant being civilized then it wouldn't make sense for the Xianbei to not use the term.
Rather the Xianbei used 華 which applied to all citizens of Northern Wei,essentially diluting an ethnoym into a nationality/culture.

Xianbei people 鮮卑 is Nomad people, they speak Turk language, this people could not been Hanzu in ethnicity. The State was not considered as righteous Han dynasty though that they labelled themselves as 漢.