History of Vietnam or What do you want to know about Vietnam?

[Snomannen]

Did you mean wikipedia? VNese version states "No one knows exactly when the ancient Ao Dai was created and how it looked like because of the lack of historical records and no one has really done in-dept researches".

Nope, the link I posed is an official Vietnamese website.

 

[East Lake]

the designer took the idea of qipao. the result is not the same dress. qipao is more sexy, while ao dai covers more the body. ao tu than is Vietnam centuries old tradional dress. I don´t know when qipao came into existence.

I thought the Vietnamese national dress was made earlier than the Qipao?

The modern Qipao was created after the fall of the Qing Dynasty.

 

[BoQ77]

underwear

 

[EastSea]

Ao dai Vietnam from 19 century.

 

[Aepsilons]

Thank You @Viet and @xesy

 

[Grand Historian]

The story goes that during the 17th-19th century, in China, if you were to ask a non-Manchus where the king reside, they would say to the South, where the capital is at (perhaps as an act of defiance against the Qing monarchy or perhaps they felt that Viet monarchy was a much closer kin to their former Ming than the ruling Qing). Therefore, the name Kinh is still used to this day to refer to Vietnamese living in China. Nevertheless, this views may have changed as the influences of the Qing monarchy and power spread throughout China.

Ming loyalists and the Han of China never recognized Vietnamese rulers as their suzerain or their representative.

I believe the term/concept kinh did not exist when Le Loi reigned Vietnam. and there is no doubt he is vietnamese.
or do you think he is chinese?

He's the farthest thing from being a Chinese,as the region and the men that followed him were largely unsinicized.

I don't see a problem with calling him Vietnamese,what I do have a problem with is anachronistically labeling him as Kinh.

 

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

I do have a question for the Vietnamese members here: @xesy , @Viet , @dichoi , @Battle of Bach Dang River , @BoQ77 --

During Annam / Dai Viet's expansion to the south, was there a policy by the Sovreigns in Annam / Dai Viet to conquer not just Champa (Southern Vietnam), but also what is now present day Cambodia, and Laos? I wonder what were the factors that prevented the Vietnamese from completely annexing the Kingdom of Lovek (Cambodia) and the Kingdom of Lan Xang (Laos). Do you attribute this to the Siamese / Ayudhaya ?

1. Champa had allied with the chinese, it had attacked regularly Dai Viet. This made the determination of the Vietnamese to conquest of Champa. Annexing Champa that was the result of this conquest.

2. Vietnamese people had moved to the south before the Vietnamese feudal state set the control over the southern land today that is the South. During this event, without any resistance or any war with any nation. Or I missed understanding about this war?

Thank for your question @Nihonjin1051

 

[Aepsilons]

1. Champa had allied with the chinese, it had attacked regularly Dai Viet. This made the determination of the Vietnamese to conquest of Champa. Annexing Champa that was the result of this conquest.

2. Vietnamese people had moved to the south before the Vietnamese feudal state set the control over the southern land today that is the South. During this event, without any resistance or any war with any nation. Or I missed understanding about this war?

Thank for your question @Nihonjin1051

Thanks for the explanation @Battle of Bach Dang River

 

[SimonTagawa]

I don´t have the info when the term "kinh" came into existence, and still have to search a bit more to find out. kinh is most likely derived by jing in chinese: Beijing (northern capigtal), Nanjing (southern capital).

basically the vietnamese people consist of 86% of ethnic kinh as majority and 14% of the ethnics as minority (54 groups such as Tay, Tai, Hmong, Hoa, Khmer, Nung, and many others).

who are the kinh people?

yes, Kinh means capital, here Hanoi city or more precise the Red river delta. the region is the place when the first Vietnamese settled down and cultivated the land. Unlike the Kinh, many other ethnics live in mountainous regions. So the kinh distinguish themselves from others by geographic locations. the Kinh live mainly in cities and coastal regions.

apart from that, the Kinh have different cultures and custom than other ethnics. so basically Kinh are sinized people. I understand, the recent genetic study of Harvard medical school shows the Kinh´s ancestors originated from Taiwan. our forefathers came to the present day Vietnam before 5,000 years ago. according to this study, the likelyhood is extremely high, the Taiwanese came as seafather and settled down in the red river delta. so Kinh people have chinese roots.

Also, the DNA study of the hospital Saint-Louis in Paris confirmed the assumption that the Vietnamese population has evolved from the tai/Indonesian and the southern Chinese population.

some studies show a different picture. the first Vietnamese originated from austronesians. they came from the western pacific. some genetic research show the Viet people have mixed with the mongolians, who came as settlers to Vietnam.

so, we don´t know for 100 per cent. Perhaps more future researches can bring more light into this.

Yes, the people of Gin/Jing;京 is Vietnamese migrants, who came to China hundreds of year ago. they belong to one of the recognised minorities in China.

yes, you are right at the last part. "Bắc Kỳ" is northerner.

Thank you, Viet, for the in depth reply. Greatly appreciated.

 

[Brainsucker]

Hakka means guest

Well, yes. Hakka means guest.

 

[dichoi]

You've been busted already on your claims on wenhua etc,the Japanese used Chinese Hanzi with the same meaning in Chinese languages and merely combined them.

Japanese did a combination, it has a new terminology which was not existed in Chinese.

You should read "A History of the Vietnamese" ,there were regionalism tensions amongst Sinicized Red River elites and the unsincized Thanh Hoa elites. While Sun Yixian's ancestors were not treated as Zhuang and had the same culture as their neighbors.
Tell me when did Kinh even apply to Le Loi,an analogy would be calling Qin Shihuang a Han.
The modern day meaning of Han already coalesced during the Ming while the first time it was used as an ethonym was during the Northern Wei while Kinh was abandoned during the Nguyen and revived during modern times.

What does a " sinized Red River " do you mean ?

I know that Peking peopele don't like Shanghai People. Does it mean that Peking or Hanzhong people is more Manchurized than Shanghai people ?

Qin Shihuang created and united China, It was civil war. Le Loi won on Ming Dynasty Invaders and regained Independence of Vietnam from China. It is two different story.

Trolled? Meaning? I don't know about that, sorry.
西湖 is Western Lake. 东湖 is East Lake. My family come from 山东. You know a little bit Chinese? It's very good!

Oh, it is my mistake, I think East Lake is in opposite meaning of West Lake. 西湖 is very famous place for tourism destination. To be honest I dont know about 东湖 in 山东

I can speak little bit Chinese, I would like to type some Chinese characters here, for that it is not be so fast forgotten.

 

[SimonTagawa]

Ming loyalists and the Han of China never recognized Vietnamese rulers as their suzerain or their representative.

Thank you for your reply. I apologize if I may have offended you or anyone in this forum with my previous post. I am only seeking for answers.

Initially, when I heard of this, I thought perhaps there were more heirs to the Ming's throne beside 朱由崧 of Southern Ming, which might have seek refuge under the Later Le monarch and Trinh Lord's protection. This is because most members of the Ming royal family fled south.

Please correct me if I am wrong. If I remember correctly, there were several heroic resistance in southern China against the Qing after the fall of Ming in 1644 and after 朱由崧's execution in the Qing's court in 1646.

Many Ming Prince held court in Fuzhou and Guangdong protected and supported by courageously loyal Ming's Generals as the Qing army moves further south to conquer. However, without further military supports, Ming imperial family members were written out of history shortly after, there would be no records of their royal ties or claim to the Ming dynasty lineage after this calamity. Nevertheless, 朱 remains as one of the most prominent family name in China to this day.

In Vietnamese history, 朱 family name rose to fame as a notable military family employed by the Nguyen Lord in the 1700s. Most notable was 朱文接 (Châu Văn Tiếp) whom aided his lord Nguyễn Phúc Ánh to the throne.

The 朱 family name is also found in Korea, mainly in the southern part and across the globe.

May I dare ask if there are any connections?

 

[Grand Historian]

Japanese did a combination, it has a new terminology which was not existed in Chinese.

You claimed 文化 was of Japanese origin and subsequently you've been busted by 2 members,now you shift your goalposts that Japanese used a combination.

What does a " sinized Red River " do you mean ?

I know that Peking peopele don't like Shanghai People. Does it mean that Peking or Hanzhong people is more Manchurized than Shanghai people ?

Qin Shihuang created and united China, It was civil war. Le Loi won on Ming Dynasty Invaders and regained Independence of Vietnam from China. It is two different story.

Sinicized means following Chinese culture,while the Red River elites are the nobles/scholars of the Hanoi area.

Beijing and Shanghai people don't like each other but not to the point of civil war they more or less consider themselves Han (doesn't mean they consider each other kin but that's another story) and practice Chinese culture albeit a regional one.

You don't seem to understand my point,you don't just apply labels anachronistically, ie you don't label Buddha a Nepalese/Indian as those ethnicties didn't exist back then and neither do you call Qin Shihuang a Han or Le Loi a Kinh.

 

[Grand Historian]

Thank you for your reply. I apologize if I may have offended you or anyone in this forum with my previous post. I am only seeking for answers.

Initially, when I heard of this, I thought perhaps there were more heirs to the Ming's throne beside 朱由崧 of Southern Ming, which might have seek refuge under the Later Le monarch and Trinh Lord's protection. This is because most members of the Ming royal family fled south.

Please correct me if I am wrong. If I remember correctly, there were several heroic resistance in southern China against the Qing after the fall of Ming in 1644 and after 朱由崧's execution in the Qing's court in 1646.

Many Ming Prince held court in Fuzhou and Guangdong protected and supported by courageously loyal Ming's Generals as the Qing army moves further south to conquer. However, without further military supports, Ming imperial family members were written out of history shortly after, there would be no records of their royal ties or claim to the Ming dynasty lineage after this calamity. Nevertheless, 朱 remains as one of the most prominent family name in China to this day.

In Vietnamese history, 朱 family name rose to fame as a notable military family employed by the Nguyen Lord in the 1700s. Most notable was 朱文接 (Châu Văn Tiếp) whom aided his lord Nguyễn Phúc Ánh to the throne.

The 朱 family name is also found in Korea, mainly in the southern part and across the globe.

May I dare ask if there are any connections?

It would be statistically impossible for the Qing to wipe out every direct male descendant of Zhu Yuanzhang(朱元璋) and neither did every living descendant claim the imperial throne.

There's a reason why they are called Ming pretenders they were nothing more than petty warlords who sought to use the Zhu name as a rallying point,ie Liu Bei did the same thing when Eastern Han fell its not exactly uncommon.

Even common peasants such as Zhu Yigui(朱一貴) were able to use the Zhu surname to initiate a rebellion.

Zhu isn't a rare surname and it existed prior to the Ming,the Qing wouldn't have anything to gain if they massacred everyone with the surname Zhu other than the enmity of the common people.

Zhu Guozi(朱國治) and many other men that had the imperial surname, loyally served the Qing until their death.

My mother's side claims descent from Liu Bang(劉邦) out of virtue of sharing the same surname is this true?

There's no way of proving or disproving it,however my point is people like to have a prestigious lineage and common surnames such as Liu,Li,Zhao,Zhu etc are able to embellish their genealogical records.

Whatever the case Nguyen rulers had the surname Ruan so why would Ming loyalists or average Han Chinese view them as their sovereign?

 

[SimonTagawa]

They are not the only one with such obsession, remember the tales from Korea and propaganda from Japan? They are always eager to take any oppertunity to claim chinese heritages to call themselves the true "heir" or "origin". Especially when china had fallout with babarians and when some chinese citizens took refuge in their land, suddently the rest of chinese civilization were to be considered extinct, and voila we got some new heir(s). They have never realized the resilience of chinese civilization (where their own pride as nation is formed after), even if they did they would refuse to acknowledge it and continued to fool themselves.
However I see their obsession with China as compliment, although a bit annoying.

By saying "China" do you mean, an anglicized term for Cathay/Catai used by Portuguese explorers? Cathay or China is derived from the name Khitan (契丹), which was used at the time, and, was publicized by Marco Polo in his book to refer to the people of Liao Dynasty who ruled what is known today as Northern China, then, yes my friend, they are related to Go Joseon (Koreans). Both Khitan and Korean originated from Baekdu Mountain. People living south of Liao were referred by Marco Polo in his book as "Manji" (Barbarians). I am glad you are flattered by this.