What do you know about killing??

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

As for income---the non coms in the marines----get paid more than the jr officers

agreed.

Also your post perfectly question the following .(dont know if its suitable or not to post the bellow. But since the topic co-relate so i am posting it.

One can understand the in a War either you have to kill or get killed if avoid killing BUT does it include the following ?


I am sure these pictures were not taken by IRAQI's and also not leaked by them also. So what drives the soldiers to pass it on??? Anyone please
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pictures Show U.S. Marines Burning Bodies of Iraqi fightersPosing for pictures with skeletons and even an enemy soldier's remains being eaten by a dog as Pentagon launches probe

The explosive photographs, reportedly taken in Fallujah in 2004, have sparked a Marine Corps investigation
However, many of the 41 shots, obtained by TMZ, are just too grisly to publish.
Two pictures show a Marine pouring gasoline on the enemy remains, another two images show the Iraqi soldiers going up in flames while a fifth picture captures the charred bodies.

U.S. Central Command, which oversees military operations in the Middle East, determined the photos had not been brought to their attention before

These soldiers ain't suffering from PTSD---they were hiding their handiwork. They executed civilians and they hid the evidence by destroying it.

They waited for their license to kill---the uniform provided them with one.

 

[Spring Onion]

Hi,

As for income---the non coms in the marines----get paid more than the jr officers


These soldiers ain't suffering from PTSD---they were hiding their handiwork. They executed civilians and they hid the evidence by destroying it.

They waited for their license to kill---the uniform provided them with one.

))) i was asking why some among them or their colleagues leaked the pictures of their actions

 

[VCheng]

Indeed selective morality aka outrage shows motives, that also applies to the idea when NATO+US try to make the world believes that they have sided with al-qaeda "liberators" as protest against atrocities in an independent country.

Why this morality is NOT shown for Somalia, Rawanda etc etc??

Why Not in case of Israel ?

The end of the story is NO none of you are siding with humanity but with your own motives. Today you are friends of al-Qaeda terrorists because you wanted to cripple Syria . So you dont have any moral right to talk about what others' motives are.

What is happening is Somalia and Rwanda is internal, but nobody is denying heir right to exist as a state. Therein lies the difference that creates the support for Israel. There is nothing selective about that.

 

[Spring Onion]

What is happening is Somalia and Rwanda is internal, but nobody is denying heir right to exist as a state. Therein lies the difference that creates the support for Israel. There is nothing selective about that.

what is going on in Syria was also an internal matter.

 

[VCheng]

what is going on in Syria was also an internal matter.

Of course, it was. The only problem is the tens of thousands of deaths and the hundreds of thousands of refugees spilling over into other countries. That makes it an international problem now.

 

[MastanKhan]

))) i was asking why some among them or their colleagues leaked the pictures of their actions

Hi,

People do strange things all the time---maybe out of sheer ignorance or stupidity. Once they find 'justification of the act' in their minds and start believing in it---then the outrageous does not stop.

For that reason you see videos of all different kinds of crimes so often.

As for leaking the video----maybe doing a one up on someone---like " hey I did a crazier video than your's "---things like that or maybe an act of conscience start hitting---it is just speculative---only the person who posted it knows the truth.

 

[Xeric]

Sir,

Allow me to disagree----.

The simple reason of PTSD is that most american troops know and acknowledge that the killings and war in afg and iraq is wrong---. They know it in their hearts and souls---so like any human with soul---these killings get to them as well---but as they are trained to do the bidding of the nation----they do it as a job. That is what the mindset is.

Vietnam vets---they had PTSD---because they knew they were in a war that was not theirs---. Thew killings got to them---but then look back at WW2 and WW1----PTSD was a rarity----

Who have PTSD----those who are conscientious----those who have a conscience----those who feel terrible at what they have done---what their govt made them do. Made themkill innocent people.

I have lived with white americans for many a years----and I tell you----they have the same joint family system as we have---. Remember---USA is not only new york or los angeles.

Fathers and mothers---mourn their dead sons and daughters who laid their lives in battle---their lives are also shattered as any pakistani or indians lives be shattered when they get the dead body of the soldier----they cry the same tears and love and cherish their pictures and other things to remember---. Large families mourn in the same manner.

American mothers and sisters and daughters have character----I have yet to see an american mother beat her chests or wail for a lost son or brother---even though inside of them they are torn apart---. The tears never go away---.

You are correct.

That's what i meant when i said: "Then, when we go to war we do it through a special kind of conviction driven by our nationalism and religion."

And dont get me wrong, i never meant to say that Americans are alien to the family culture. Just wanted to bring out the practice that we have in our part of the world; My parents have been living away from their parents. Even though they were like a 1000 KM away from them, they still took us visit our grandparents (when they were alive) atleast twice a year. To be concise, we meet our paternal, maternal grandparents, khaloos, chachas, mamoos, even the mamoos of my father atleast once a year. Not because they all happened to be at one place (they are scattered all over the country - badin, thatta, okara, bahwalpur, duniyapur, kharian, i dont even remember the names now), but we would manage to see each other. If we didnt, they would somehow come to us.

First, i thought this 'problem' of visiting is unique to our family, but after i got into practical life, i found out that most of us do the same. Our family gatherings are not restricted till grandparents that too till the time they are alive, it extends beyond that. i mean, my mother has 8 sisters, 3 brothers, i have known them when most of them were unmarried, now they have kids of their own and we know all of them by name. This alone makes 8 x districts . And that's just one side of the relation.

i remember, during my ISSB, some of my colleges were asked during interviews if they knew the name of their grandfather and grand-grandfather, and to my surprise a few of them didnt. But still, i think our family system is more elaborate, but then do the westerners maintain such a deep family system? Even though, i agree that having a family alone doesnt exempt you from falling prey to PTSD.

P.S. i have a fetish of traveling by road. You know, once i went from Karachi to Skardu on my car, and i didnt have to stay once in an Army guestroom. When/whereever i wanted to make a stop, i had some mamoo k chachay k taye ka baita waiting for me to take me home for the night. Can the westerners boast that?

 

[Xeric]

@MastanKhan

On a second thought, whereas i agree that the American do have resentment towards what they are doing outside America, but had this resentment been so strong, the public opinion should have changed their policy by now. Draw-down in Afg on one side, what they planned to do in Syria is another case in point.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

See the problem with the american public opinion is---that pakistan has not fought back through the media. paks media was ill focussed and ill informed/ They had no clue as to how to address the issue.

The u s war was against al qaeda---that was the reason given for invasion to take out the al qaeda---. Guess what---the u s conveniently let al qaeda escape through ill-planning or thru a lack of comprehension of what they would be facing or out of sheer arrogance of their military might and technology.

The problem over here is of understanding---did u s really go into afg to seek revenge---or was this war started and taken over by defence contractors and defence industry---if you know the u s---then you would know that it was started by the def industry / contractors---because there was so much to be made.

Now---I want to focus your attention on this term---"BAD GUYS"----YOU REMEMBER WHEN THIS TERM WAS COINED---mid to late 90's in computer video games---you went in and killed the bad guys and conquered the badlands.

Guess what---the u s govt took over this phraseology and ran with it. Now think for a moment what happened here---what made the justification----the justification was already pre-planted into the minds of the gaming community world over---all the kids were killing bad guys in video game without any remorse and reservation---in their minds and hearts and souls---it was all justifiable.

So---when the 9/11 perforators were given that name---there was no hesitation from the already "PREPPED" crowd---there was no resistance at all---they all jumped in feet first to kill the 'bad guys'.

The astonishing true to life visual effects of the computer screen were similar to the visual effects of the real fire fights---the mind was already prepared---consicnece had been overcome by the media blasts---.

Remember Prince Harry---the chopper pilot----he says---killing bad guys---it is like playing a video game---. He was not fibbing---but was honest in his expressions---THE REALITY OF THE VIDEO GAME SCREEN WAS NO DIFFERENT THAN THE REALITY OF REAL LIVE COMBAT ON HIS GUNSHIP HELICOPTERS VIDEO SCREEN.

That was the moment for the pak media----if they had the brains---and the paks---if they had the comprehension to understand to have fought back at this term 'bad guys'.

 

[Neptune]

I've never killed someone, the last time I had a weapon on my hand was a year ago on a RHIB.

When explaining all the situation, of course we can't hide behind the "this is war and things happen at war". If we had did, there wouldn't be anything classified as war crimes today. In fact, killing itself by any means is homicide.

Before analysing killing in combat, i'll start with the one that commits to do it.
When soldiers get trained, be it any branch. From a reserve officer at a military restaurant to a fighter pilot. All do get trained to kill. But this "kill" isn't that simple. It's the kill to follow the orders, kill to save your men, kill to complete the mission, kill to neutralise...etc. As seen, at most of them use of deadly force in combat is actually a way or it depends on how you describe it. I personally describe it as a way, a way that is taken when the other ways don't go at the top of the hill. And at a situation like war. It's usually the only way. We can't blame or congradulate @jhungary on his act of running his drive over a non-combatant. No one can except for the people that lived it. Lets say we will judge jhungary now, we will think rational now. And when people think rational over the killings in combat, even the dead of Bin Laden would be a homicide crime. In deed, I bet jhungary had flashbacks dozens of times regarding that child. There are many conspiracies to create as the event has already happened. Maybe the kid was innocent, maybe he was a suicide bomber, maybe the insurgery was using him to stop the military convoy in order to ambush it. If we keep thinking we can list a hundred of possibilities. But difference is, you can't think at most of those situations. And you have to take decisions without thinking. And a 'non-thinking soldier' (i created that) does what he's been trained to do at those situations. There are some basic doctrines like "don't think or what the DI says". They're not Americanish or sth. Be it American, Russian, Pakistani, Indian, Turk or Arabic. Whoever was on that ride, doesn't matter the soldier's nationality, would have done the same, at least I would. If you say you would not. Well than you can think and list the possibilities of your act today as it would have happened times ago. The problem is, at the moment of it, you can't think.

That's why I believe in that the reason why some soldiers having trauma over their act in combat that it resulted with the death of a native, it's because that either they thinked at that moment or they thinked aftermath. The best think to do is dealing with it, not thinking. That's my opinion.

 

[jhungary]

They paid me $60 a month when I was interning for a top...top Audit Firm & my mates, the ones who continued their 3 year mandatory internship before the got to be members of their Professional Accountancy Bodies, got paid $100 a month for 3 years !

I'd take your beat up car any day !

I got pay $7 an hour working at a restauant after i got out lol.....
I think $60 in Pakistan is not the same as $60 dollar in the US.....

 

[Armstrong]

I got pay $7 an hour working at a restauant after i got out lol.....
I think $60 in Pakistan is not the same as $60 dollar in the US.....

$60 in Pakistan would buy you a Big Mac perhaps 30 times over !

 

[jhungary]

That's why they call us humans. We are so different.
But still i guess we are better off without the drinks.


You missed the point.

Back then, a Captain of the US Army told me that she gets $ 5K net if she gets to deploy, that's tax free due to the employment in a war zone. But then the issue is not of 4, 5 or 6 K, but the fact that an American earning 4 K a month has the ability to buy 4 x laptops or anything that costs a grand with his single pay. Now compare this to a 2/Lt here, who gets like Rs 20K a month, He would require to save for 5 months to get ONE of the same laptops (if it costs $ 1000, which makes it Rs 100,000 i.e.5 x 20K). That's the difference of 'purchasing power' i am talking about. Sames goes for a car, you can by beat up car, people here cant even do that even if they save for a complete year (a stupid car here costs like Rs 0.5 million, you do the rest of the math).

But then the issue is not of comparing US dollars with Pak rupees, nor do we feel 'underpaid.' Just as it was brought up so i thought it should be taken to its logical conclusion, or else, i am sure Bill Gates might also feel that he hasnt got enough.

I think you misunderstood what she said, it should be 5 Grand basic salary (Taxable) with hazardous pay (Non-taxable) if she got deployed to combat zone...

i don't know how much value of a single dollar or rupee in Pakistan. I imagine it could not be 1 to 1 tho. I mean what kind of computer can you buy with $1000 USD in Pakistan? Compare to what kind of computer you can buy in local walmart....Then you will know the different....

For me, after i pay all my expense, i only have like 500 bucks a month left. That's not enough for 4 hours of consultation per month.....

But anyway, i don't think that's important

))))))))))))) so others can put forward the same reason for burning bodies of US soldiers in war zones?

will that be acceptable according to military SOPs? or it will come under human rights violation

actually, they did......

 

[jhungary]

Sir,

Allow me to disagree----.

The simple reason of PTSD is that most american troops know and acknowledge that the killings and war in afg and iraq is wrong---. They know it in their hearts and souls---so like any human with soul---these killings get to them as well---but as they are trained to do the bidding of the nation----they do it as a job. That is what the mindset is.

Vietnam vets---they had PTSD---because they knew they were in a war that was not theirs---. Thew killings got to them---but then look back at WW2 and WW1----PTSD was a rarity----

Who have PTSD----those who are conscientious----those who have a conscience----those who feel terrible at what they have done---what their govt made them do. Made themkill innocent people.

I have lived with white americans for many a years----and I tell you----they have the same joint family system as we have---. Remember---USA is not only new york or los angeles.

Fathers and mothers---mourn their dead sons and daughters who laid their lives in battle---their lives are also shattered as any pakistani or indians lives be shattered when they get the dead body of the soldier----they cry the same tears and love and cherish their pictures and other things to remember---. Large families mourn in the same manner.

American mothers and sisters and daughters have character----I have yet to see an american mother beat her chests or wail for a lost son or brother---even though inside of them they are torn apart---. The tears never go away---.

The problem is, killing is wrong, it's just that simple.

Fighting a just war would not make an act of killing just. Almost all modern law and civility would say killing is wrong for all level. Fighting a war, regardless if the war is just or not, make no exception on that

PTSD is a mental mechanism that's telling you, you had done a wrong thing. The human mind did not programmed someone to a mind set of killing. Human instinct are all uniformally programmed one to survive, however, when taking a life is intersecting your instinct to survive? That would be the case we are talking about.

Large amount of WWII vet would still have PTSD or some degree of Depression after the War, the problem is, the term "PTSD" is not so regonized. Hence the reported case is limited.

Some of the well known facts are there for PTSD during WW2. You can look it up by simply typing WWII and PTSD in any search engine you have.

What does these 3 marine have in common??

I've never killed someone, the last time I had a weapon on my hand was a year ago on a RHIB.

When explaining all the situation, of course we can't hide behind the "this is war and things happen at war". If we had did, there wouldn't be anything classified as war crimes today. In fact, killing itself by any means is homicide.

Before analysing killing in combat, i'll start with the one that commits to do it.
When soldiers get trained, be it any branch. From a reserve officer at a military restaurant to a fighter pilot. All do get trained to kill. But this "kill" isn't that simple. It's the kill to follow the orders, kill to save your men, kill to complete the mission, kill to neutralise...etc. As seen, at most of them use of deadly force in combat is actually a way or it depends on how you describe it. I personally describe it as a way, a way that is taken when the other ways don't go at the top of the hill. And at a situation like war. It's usually the only way. We can't blame or congradulate @jhungary on his act of running his drive over a non-combatant. No one can except for the people that lived it. Lets say we will judge jhungary now, we will think rational now. And when people think rational over the killings in combat, even the dead of Bin Laden would be a homicide crime. In deed, I bet jhungary had flashbacks dozens of times regarding that child. There are many conspiracies to create as the event has already happened. Maybe the kid was innocent, maybe he was a suicide bomber, maybe the insurgery was using him to stop the military convoy in order to ambush it. If we keep thinking we can list a hundred of possibilities. But difference is, you can't think at most of those situations. And you have to take decisions without thinking. And a 'non-thinking soldier' (i created that) does what he's been trained to do at those situations. There are some basic doctrines like "don't think or what the DI says". They're not Americanish or sth. Be it American, Russian, Pakistani, Indian, Turk or Arabic. Whoever was on that ride, doesn't matter the soldier's nationality, would have done the same, at least I would. If you say you would not. Well than you can think and list the possibilities of your act today as it would have happened times ago. The problem is, at the moment of it, you can't think.

That's why I believe in that the reason why some soldiers having trauma over their act in combat that it resulted with the death of a native, it's because that either they thinked at that moment or they thinked aftermath. The best think to do is dealing with it, not thinking. That's my opinion.

very well put.

For a long time, i don't exactly on top of my game because said incident, even talking about it give me chill...

That time, the order is simple "Do not stop and Do not deviate from the route" The supply we are escorting is vital for a forward operating base (FOB) and without our convoy get there on time, the soldier in the FOB would have fought the insurgent with stone and branch.

The order does not explicitly gave us order to kill, there are probably a millions way you can interpret the order of don't stop and don't deviate. Fact to a matter is, there was a kid stand in the middle of the road, the only carriage way and he is waving at you and ask you to stop. He may be innocent, maybe not. And you have your order not to stop, and not to take detour. As you get closer and closer, you are about 10 seconds away from running over him, the whole thing come down to what do you do about it?

Am i feel guilty about it? Yes of course, a kid died and anyone would feel guilty. Do i think i did a right thing? You bet. now, i don't know if he was innocent, or if he was instructed by the insurgent, i only know one thing, that's bring my man home alive. I did that and I have to believe all my decision i made in that war is right. There are no gap to think about it. This is how you do your job.

 

[Xeric]

I think you misunderstood what she said, it should be 5 Grand basic salary (Taxable) with hazardous pay (Non-taxable) if she got deployed to combat zone...

As i was not much interested in others salary so this what i heard; i get 5 K, whole of it if i get deployed as there's no tax to be paid then.

You figure it out and let me know what she meant.

i don't know how much value of a single dollar or rupee in Pakistan. I imagine it could not be 1 to 1 tho. I mean what kind of computer can you buy with $1000 USD in Pakistan? Compare to what kind of computer you can buy in local walmart....Then you will know the different....

These days a US dollar equals Rs 105.

Back then it was somewhere around Rs 55.

And as i have made a few purchases from walmarts or the best buyes so the comparison isnt that difficult. As we dont make laptops here so it gets imported. So here we would get the same laptop for the price of the laptop in dollars converted into rupees plus the import duty. i know that because the last laptop i bought here in Pakistan costed (approximately) the same in dollars when i checked its price online in dollars (that is when the Pakistani price of the laptop was converted into dollars). Whenever our rupee devalues, the price of imported item goes up correspondingly. It's basic economics.

So, let's say a laptop costs $ 500, it would cost here Rs 52500 (at the current rate). If an American gets lets say $ 4K, he has the "ability" to buy, what, 8 x laptops with a months salary. Now a guy getting Rs 50K a month here (which is roughly the net pay of a senior major here), he can merely buy one. That's the difference of purchasing power i wanted to point out.

This formula, though would not be applicable on things we make/grow locally.

For me, after i pay all my expense, i only have like 500 bucks a month left.

Well, i am glad that atleast we are on the same page in this case

Lastly, we dont have the facility them American soldiers have - the tax free purchases they can make at their PX or Commissaries. Here, for military nothing is (tax) free or subsidized, except the transportation concession one can get when he travels home on public transportation.

That's not enough for 4 hours of consultation per month.....

i never said that one should go for consultation. i thought the Chaplain was enough. But then thankfully we dont suffer with PTSD either.

But anyway, i don't think that's important

But as you correctly said, that's not important.