What do you know about killing??

[Xeric]

Chicken - Kargil mein bhiii beeemar honeiii ka bhanaa banaa liyaa thaaa !

Jokes aside - How are you Xeric Bhai ?

Tujhay kitnio baar kaha hai k yawian na mara kar.

If you can tell me something that I've often wondered - Are their instances of suicide within the Pakistan Army because our soldiers can't cope with the fighting & the killing like there are in other armies around the world (those deployed in combat) ? I ask because I couldn't find any mention as such !

Once i was in this US military institution and we had this discussion on PTSD. i was surprised that the US had an elaborate system to manage soldiers' post employment problems like PTSD; till then i didnt know that there is one. Then i was even more surprised by the large number of soldiers undergoing the rehabilitation program. They said that soldiers coming back from Iraq or Afg tend to get into Domestic Violence issues (related to PTSD). But i was happy to tell them that we dont require any such program as of yet.

The reasons i told them were:
May be by being Muslims we have natural ways of 'disinfecting' ourselves through activities like Namaz etc.

Then, when we go to war we do it through a special kind of conviction driven by our nationalism and religion.

Also, we have an excellent way of 'cleansing' ourselves as we have a well-knit family system, with all those dadas, chachas, cousins and parents, we dont feel 'alone'. Actually, we dont just rely on our girl/boy friends for the purpose. Just to qualify this statement i would quote a colleague of mine in the US military who when asked what's the saddest part of not having a boy-friend, replied; "you know when you are off that carrier or the plane back from Afg or Iraq and you see other soldiers being hugged and kissed by their lovers, and no one is there to receive you, it Sucks, it sucks big time."

i mean, if my gf (hypothetically..i knw @Armstrong nay ismay say bhi mazay lainay hain) doesnt keep contact with me or isnt there when i come back from a war, i can shed away my catharsis with the help of my family, instead of killing someone or burning someones body, no?

Lastly, may be we have not been into this war for long enough, may be after another 10 years we also require to have PTSD and domestic violence solutions, but i seriously doubt that.

Any kind of ''shooting matches'' at all, against India?

Many.

 

[Abingdonboy]

A very nice read @jhungary I think it is beyond despicable that some would attack you for what you have done in WAR and I respect the way you've addressed the situation- using logic and reason.

As you rightly point out, one cannot not retrospectively look back and scrutinise every single action a soldier took during war. Especially when it is clear the intent of the solider was just doing their job and not malicious. I have very close friends and family serving/served in the military and they all tell me the same thing. A human simply isn't designed to process the kind of prolonged stress modern combat inflicts on an individual nor are we equipped with the mental facilities to factor in every single variable before taking action- we are not computers, we do not work on the balance of probability or on statistical data, we work on instinct and training. And in such extreme situations it is the training that takes over. My Uncle who is now retired from the Indian Para regmt described it to me in very similar terms as you did. He said it feels as though your body goes into autopilot, you no longer are thinking you are just doing. A threat presents itself and it is your job to engage and neutralise this threat. He served in the infantry for a number of years and he tells me that by there very nature these men are taught to kill above all else- this is literally their one role in the military. Whilst there are other specialised arms that take care of other aspects of warfare-communicaitons, maintenance, logistics, medical assistance etc the Infantry's speciality is killing and they are VERY good at it. As such it's all very well to sit back and judge you guys but this is far too simplistic and unfair to you lot.

Militaries don't exist to serve tea and coffee after all. They are the "action" arm of any Nation/Govt, they are used with very specific purpose in mind.


One really must commend you for all you did in uniform, you were a volunteer, you joined to serve your nation, you signed away God knows how many rights your peers in "civvie street" had, you sacrificed God knows how much and you didn't ask to be sent to War of that specific war. That was simply you following your orders as every good soldier does.

 

[jhungary]

How many did u kill? Ever counted.

I remember every person i killed. But i did not count how many, nor would i wanted to count them.....

There are 2 person i know i killed and i remember vividly of the last breathe they drew. That's all i can tell you.....

 

[jhungary]

agreed.

Also your post perfectly question the following .(dont know if its suitable or not to post the bellow. But since the topic co-relate so i am posting it.

One can understand the in a War either you have to kill or get killed if avoid killing BUT does it include the following ?


I am sure these pictures were not taken by IRAQI's and also not leaked by them also. So what drives the soldiers to pass it on??? Anyone please
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pictures Show U.S. Marines Burning Bodies of Iraqi fighters

Snipped below....

Well, that's came along the line with why people take selfie when they are doing something legal. And i am not talking about theft, or some prank, i am talking about murder, rape, arson and indecent assault.

Merrick McKoy: Dad Takes Selfie With Baby Then Shoots Her, Himself | News One

Ditch Killer Dennehy Took Selfie Before Attacks

Army sacking over Skype sex scandal

Many people did ask me, why people would stupid enough to take photo of the torture in Abu Grahib and then even stupid enough to distribute it. Honestly? I have no answer for it.

Different people react to traumtic stuff differently. Sometimes what seems strange may seems as a coping mechanism for you after you are doing soemthing traumatic. I cannot in my good conscious say all the Armed Force member are good and decent as they came, god only know what gone thru their head when they take a picture of charred corps and when they descreated those bodies.

People take photo for anything (Personally, I don't like to take photo at war) but when everything around you is cranage and destruction, it would literally be the same regardless of what you took. Military have a long history of mutilating enemy soldier from WW2 the story of Marine pulling out the gold teeth of dead Japanese soldier, to Vietnamese when Green Beret collect VC fingers and ears, the only incident between then and there is, you only hear about what they did, but now, you saw it.

So, you are asking what drivethe soldier to pass those photo on? I don't know? Curiousity perhaps?

 

[jhungary]

@jhungary what you explained is on a soldier level what about on a level where you dont have to see the person you have killed ,
The people who can kill thousands by just inserting a key to launch a Ballistic missile, do you think They would have the same feelings?

Well, that's remind me of a story about the Air Force going to give special medal to drone operator for the service they pay.

Down there, boots on the ground, it's hard when you are face to face and trying to kill your enemy, and the worse part is to witness the whole process.

Up there, in the air, when what you seeing is skies over skies, killing people is not an act anymore, its more or less got turn into statistic of some sort. How effective is your Bomb, any secondary explosion, estimate how many killed. For them, i don't feel they get the meaning of killing people. They are doing their job. Dropping bombs and supporting the little guy down there.
But dor us, when you look squarely on the face of a person you are about to kill, that's give you another feeling.

Then you got drone pilot getting a medal specially for killing, at that level, you don't think it's killing anymore, you only think like you are playing a computer game, you use a controller that directly comes with an XBox 360 console and you looking at a TV while you do your stuff, that's not killing, that's just some realistic video game you play...

Remember in my last article i said the top brass would only see death (Enemys and Ours) as statistic? This is how they work. On that level, you have to detach with the reality or you cannot function as an overall commander, my wife whom was in staff position once said to me. If she is going to order a soldier to his death, she would not want to know his name. And in staff position, you deal with expected casualty on both side, if you put so much care on one or all unit, you would not been able to make a sane decision.

I hope that answer your question.

@Spring Onion
i think they are supposed to burn the bodies to avoid any decomp and contamination. That's what their SOP says.

Think it is to burn it and then bury it. Dig a big hole (Or use bomb crater) and put them all in and burn them to desanitize it. And then bury them and grave will mark their location.

 

[jhungary]

Tujhay kitnio baar kaha hai k yawian na mara kar.


Once i was in this US military institution and we had this discussion on PTSD. i was surprised that the US had an elaborate system to manage soldiers' post employment problems like PTSD; till then i didnt know that there is one. Then i was even more surprised by the large number of soldiers undergoing the rehabilitation program. They said that soldiers coming back from Iraq or Afg tend to get into Domestic Violence issues (related to PTSD). But i was happy to tell them that we dont require any such program as of yet.

The reasons i told them were:
May be by being Muslims we have natural ways of 'disinfecting' ourselves through activities like Namaz etc.

Then, when we go to war we do it through a special kind of conviction driven by our nationalism and religion.

Also, we have an excellent way of 'cleansing' ourselves as we have a well-knit family system, with all those dadas, chachas, cousins and parents, we dont feel 'alone'. Actually, we dont just rely on our girl/boy friends for the purpose. Just to qualify this statement i would quote a colleague of mine in the US military who when asked what's the saddest part of not having a boy-friend, replied; "you know when you are off that carrier or the plane back from Afg or Iraq and you see other soldiers being hugged and kissed by their lovers, and no one is there to receive you, it Sucks, it sucks big time."

i mean, if my gf (hypothetically..i knw @Armstrong nay ismay say bhi mazay lainay hain) doesnt keep contact with me or isnt there when i come back from a war, i can shed away my catharsis with the help of my family, instead of killing someone or burning someones body, no?

Lastly, may be we have not been into this war for long enough, may be after another 10 years we also require to have PTSD and domestic violence solutions, but i seriously doubt that.

Many.

well, if you think not having Girl/Boy friend support while you were deployed, try getting a dear john letter when you are in the middle of an operation. That would really make you day.

First month i got back from Iraq. I think i had seen everything overthere. But what it translated is actually only the begining. Becasue i only did see how i do and what i do over there, but not the stuff that's going to change me for the rest of my life.

Started to get recurring nightmare, then you don't want to go to sleep, then elaborated into get into heavy drinking (Well, nothing to do in the middle of the night) Some will move on to drugs. Before you know it, you start checking the tires and trunks of the car that park near your house, that drive by suddently, and you started to react to sudden loud noise.

A fellow soldier from my support group told his story on how he man handle his own kids when his kid want to come up for a hug, he threw him on the ground.

You try go to an Army Strink but you started to think oh, well, maybe i will leave a permanent record on my file if i told him, or her, too much. So you decided to keep your mouth shut during those session. With nearly $4000 (I was a 2 LT back then) paycheque a month i can hardly afford any private help on the matter. Then you just keep balling up on the inside and you never speak to anyone. Cause they would just think you are a creep and they won't understand.

Then one day you just cannot build up the anger anymore, anger from people don't understand, anger from blaming yourselves, anger from stuff that went wrong and went downhill from then on, and anger that you know things went down hill because it's your own fault. Then you become more and more agressive. At some point, you exploded.

It's maybe a lot easier to write those stuff here, but when you have to experience these, man, i am telling you, it's not as fun as you may seems, and the word suicide did enter my mind a couple of time. too.

If you are lucky, you will eventually get the help you need, if not? You ended up in jail or a lot worse...

 

[Umair Nawaz]

What if his Ghost comes back or a Zombie.

I remember every person i killed. But i did not count how many, how would i wanted to count them.....

There are 2 person i know i killed and i remember vividly of the last breathe they drew. That's all i can tell you.....

yeah is a sad thing........

 

[Xeric]

well, if you think not having Girl/Boy friend support while you were deployed, try getting a dear john letter when you are in the middle of an operation. That would really make you day.

First month i got back from Iraq. I think i had seen everything overthere. But what it translated is actually only the begining. Becasue i only did see how i do and what i do over there, but not the stuff that's going to change me for the rest of my life.

Started to get recurring nightmare, then you don't want to go to sleep, then elaborated into get into heavy drinking (Well, nothing to do in the middle of the night) Some will move on to drugs. Before you know it, you start checking the tires and trunks of the car that park near your house, that drive by suddently, and you started to react to sudden loud noise.

A fellow soldier from my support group told his story on how he man handle his own kids when his kid want to come up for a hug, he threw him on the ground.

You try go to an Army Strink but you started to think oh, well, maybe i will leave a permanent record on my file if i told him, or her, too much. So you decided to keep your mouth shut during those session. With nearly $4000 (I was a 2 LT back then) paycheque a month i can hardly afford any private help on the matter. Then you just keep balling up on the inside and you never speak to anyone. Cause they would just think you are a creep and they won't understand.

Then one day you just cannot build up the anger anymore, anger from people don't understand, anger from blaming yourselves, anger from stuff that went wrong and went downhill from then on, and anger that you know things went down hill because it's your own fault. Then you become more and more agressive. At some point, you exploded.

It's maybe a lot easier to write those stuff here, but when you have to experience these, man, i am telling you, it's not as fun as you may seems, and the word suicide did enter my mind a couple of time. too.

If you are lucky, you will eventually get the help you need, if not? You ended up in jail or a lot worse...

Been there, done that.

Unfortunately, this is not how we do it in Pakistan Army:
Survivor Suicides | NBC4 Washington

Apart from that, just as have you mentioned, drinking or drugs may soothe you on the outside, but you know that it would eventually make you more bitter in the long run. That's another reason we still dont have this issue here as of yet, and we are trying hard to make it stay that way.

Oh and as for the $ 4000, you guys could buy a used car with a single pay of yours or lets say, 4 new laptops. We on the other hand cant even have a decent cell phone with our month's pay, but hey, we are not the ones having PTSD or DV issues. So we agree that money aint the solution.

On a lighter note, i must admit that post war problems are indeed a serious issue. i agree with a you 100% as i didnt carry a gun with me ever, but since i have been to that zone, i dont know why i keep it tucked in my drawer all the time; it's in my study if i am there or the bedroom if i am there. That's what war do to you!

 

[jhungary]

A very nice read @jhungary I think it is beyond despicable that some would attack you for what you have done in WAR and I respect the way you've addressed the situation- using logic and reason.

As you rightly point out, one cannot not retrospectively look back and scrutinise every single action a soldier took during war. Especially when it is clear the intent of the solider was just doing their job and not malicious. I have very close friends and family serving/served in the military and they all tell me the same thing. A human simply isn't designed to process the kind of prolonged stress modern combat inflicts on an individual nor are we equipped with the mental facilities to factor in every single variable before taking action- we are not computers, we do not work on the balance of probability or on statistical data, we work on instinct and training. And in such extreme situations it is the training that takes over. My Uncle who is now retired from the Indian Para regmt described it to me in very similar terms as you did. He said it feels as though your body goes into autopilot, you no longer are thinking you are just doing. A threat presents itself and it is your job to engage and neutralise this threat. He served in the infantry for a number of years and he tells me that by there very nature these men are taught to kill above all else- this is literally their one role in the military. Whilst there are other specialised arms that take care of other aspects of warfare-communicaitons, maintenance, logistics, medical assistance etc the Infantry's speciality is killing and they are VERY good at it. As such it's all very well to sit back and judge you guys but this is far too simplistic and unfair to you lot.

Militaries don't exist to serve tea and coffee after all. They are the "action" arm of any Nation/Govt, they are used with very specific purpose in mind.


One really must commend you for all you did in uniform, you were a volunteer, you joined to serve your nation, you signed away God knows how many rights your peers in "civvie street" had, you sacrificed God knows how much and you didn't ask to be sent to War of that specific war. That was simply you following your orders as every good soldier does.

Sorry for the skipped reply, was call away for works.

Lol thanks

People say a lot of thing to soldier, the job of a soldier is to follow order, not to have your own throught. When you kill people, it goes in an instance. You do not think, you do not pause, you just do

The problem is when you killed a person, you cannot always get the right guy. Bullet being non-discriminate, they won't care if it was hitting the person you want to hit. Accident do happen, but you don't stop when you killed someone accidentally..

That is the problem many people don't understand. If you accidentally killed someone in a traffic accident, you would stop and find out what's going on. War on the other hand, you don't stop, yes, it may seems like you don't care but the fact is, you care, you died.

Many people say the Army this and the Army that, in the end of yhe day, we are just doing our job, that's to survive

Been there, done that.

Unfortunately, this is not how we do it in Pakistan Army:
Survivor Suicides | NBC4 Washington

Apart from that, just as have you mentioned, drinking or drugs may soothe you on the outside, but you know that it would eventually make you more bitter in the long run. That's another reason we still dont have this issue here as of yet, and we are trying hard to make it stay that way.

Oh and as for the $ 4000, you guys could buy a used car with a single pay of yours or lets say, 4 new laptops. We on the other hand cant even have a decent cell phone with our month's pay, but hey, we are not the ones having PTSD or DV issues. So we agree that money aint the solution.

On a lighter note, i must admit that post war problems are indeed a serious issue. i agree with a you 100% as i didnt carry a gun with me ever, but since i have been to that zone, i dont know why i keep it tucked in my drawer all the time; it's in my study if i am there or the bedroom if i am there. That's what war do to you!

Lol I have done twice, got dump both time I was deployed...talking about bad luck or bad girl friend....

I guess how people deal with post war issue is up to the individual. Different people have any different way to deal with. I am not gonna say we all drink the problem away, but this is some of the choice.

Finally $4,000 isn't any kind of big money (Actually it's 3600) after tax you could probably can afford a beated up car, then I have to pay for a lot of stuff too my actual car payment, ma mothers medicine and my rent (I lived off base) but I know, I am already better off than many people, a Private earn $2100 a month...which is nothing...

 

[jhungary]

yeah is a sad thing........

Actually, that's not the saddest thing...

 

[Armstrong]

Finally $4,000 isn't any kind of big money (Actually it's 3600) after tax you could probably can afford a beated up car, then I have to pay for a lot of stuff too my actual car payment, ma mothers medicine and my rent (I lived off base) but I know, I am already better off than many people, a Private earn $2100 a month...which is nothing...

They paid me $60 a month when I was interning for a top...top Audit Firm & my mates, the ones who continued their 3 year mandatory internship before the got to be members of their Professional Accountancy Bodies, got paid $100 a month for 3 years !

I'd take your beat up car any day !

 

[Spring Onion]

The difference is that abuses by US forces, such as the one you posted above, are being actively investigated and will be prosecuted, while those who feign outrage at that are conspicuously silent about Asad's atrocities in Syria.

Selective outrage shows the motives rather than the morality.

Indeed selective morality aka outrage shows motives, that also applies to the idea when NATO+US try to make the world believes that they have sided with al-qaeda "liberators" as protest against atrocities in an independent country.

Why this morality is NOT shown for Somalia, Rawanda etc etc??

Why Not in case of Israel ?

The end of the story is NO none of you are siding with humanity but with your own motives. Today you are friends of al-Qaeda terrorists because you wanted to cripple Syria . So you dont have any moral right to talk about what others' motives are.

 

[Xeric]

Lol I have done twice, got dump both time I was deployed...talking about bad luck or bad girl friend....

I guess how people deal with post war issue is up to the individual. Different people have any different way to deal with. I am not gonna say we all drink the problem away, but this is some of the choice.

That's why they call us humans. We are so different.
But still i guess we are better off without the drinks.

Finally $4,000 isn't any kind of big money (Actually it's 3600) after tax you could probably can afford a beated up car, then I have to pay for a lot of stuff too my actual car payment, ma mothers medicine and my rent (I lived off base) but I know, I am already better off than many people, a Private earn $2100 a month...which is nothing...

You missed the point.

Back then, a Captain of the US Army told me that she gets $ 5K net if she gets to deploy, that's tax free due to the employment in a war zone. But then the issue is not of 4, 5 or 6 K, but the fact that an American earning 4 K a month has the ability to buy 4 x laptops or anything that costs a grand with his single pay. Now compare this to a 2/Lt here, who gets like Rs 20K a month, He would require to save for 5 months to get ONE of the same laptops (if it costs $ 1000, which makes it Rs 100,000 i.e.5 x 20K). That's the difference of 'purchasing power' i am talking about. Sames goes for a car, you can by beat up car, people here cant even do that even if they save for a complete year (a stupid car here costs like Rs 0.5 million, you do the rest of the math).

But then the issue is not of comparing US dollars with Pak rupees, nor do we feel 'underpaid.' Just as it was brought up so i thought it should be taken to its logical conclusion, or else, i am sure Bill Gates might also feel that he hasnt got enough.

 

[Spring Onion]

@Spring Onion
i think they are supposed to burn the bodies to avoid any decomp and contamination. That's what their SOP says.

))))))))))))) so others can put forward the same reason for burning bodies of US soldiers in war zones?

will that be acceptable according to military SOPs? or it will come under human rights violation

 

[MastanKhan]

Tujhay kitnio baar kaha hai k yawian na mara kar.


Once i was in this US military institution and we had this discussion on PTSD. i was surprised that the US had an elaborate system to manage soldiers' post employment problems like PTSD; till then i didnt know that there is one. Then i was even more surprised by the large number of soldiers undergoing the rehabilitation program. They said that soldiers coming back from Iraq or Afg tend to get into Domestic Violence issues (related to PTSD). But i was happy to tell them that we dont require any such program as of yet.

The reasons i told them were:
May be by being Muslims we have natural ways of 'disinfecting' ourselves through activities like Namaz etc.

Then, when we go to war we do it through a special kind of conviction driven by our nationalism and religion.

Also, we have an excellent way of 'cleansing' ourselves as we have a well-knit family system, with all those dadas, chachas, cousins and parents, we dont feel 'alone'. Actually, we dont just rely on our girl/boy friends for the purpose. Just to qualify this statement i would quote a colleague of mine in the US military who when asked what's the saddest part of not having a boy-friend, replied; "you know when you are off that carrier or the plane back from Afg or Iraq and you see other soldiers being hugged and kissed by their lovers, and no one is there to receive you, it Sucks, it sucks big time."

i mean, if my gf (hypothetically..i knw @Armstrong nay ismay say bhi mazay lainay hain) doesnt keep contact with me or isnt there when i come back from a war, i can shed away my catharsis with the help of my family, instead of killing someone or burning someones body, no?

Lastly, may be we have not been into this war for long enough, may be after another 10 years we also require to have PTSD and domestic violence solutions, but i seriously doubt that.

Many.

Sir,

Allow me to disagree----.

The simple reason of PTSD is that most american troops know and acknowledge that the killings and war in afg and iraq is wrong---. They know it in their hearts and souls---so like any human with soul---these killings get to them as well---but as they are trained to do the bidding of the nation----they do it as a job. That is what the mindset is.

Vietnam vets---they had PTSD---because they knew they were in a war that was not theirs---. Thew killings got to them---but then look back at WW2 and WW1----PTSD was a rarity----

Who have PTSD----those who are conscientious----those who have a conscience----those who feel terrible at what they have done---what their govt made them do. Made themkill innocent people.

I have lived with white americans for many a years----and I tell you----they have the same joint family system as we have---. Remember---USA is not only new york or los angeles.

Fathers and mothers---mourn their dead sons and daughters who laid their lives in battle---their lives are also shattered as any pakistani or indians lives be shattered when they get the dead body of the soldier----they cry the same tears and love and cherish their pictures and other things to remember---. Large families mourn in the same manner.

American mothers and sisters and daughters have character----I have yet to see an american mother beat her chests or wail for a lost son or brother---even though inside of them they are torn apart---. The tears never go away---.