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What do you know about killing??

T
very well put.

For a long time, i don't exactly on top of my game because said incident, even talking about it give me chill...

That time, the order is simple "Do not stop and Do not deviate from the route" The supply we are escorting is vital for a forward operating base (FOB) and without our convoy get there on time, the soldier in the FOB would have fought the insurgent with stone and branch.

The order does not explicitly gave us order to kill, there are probably a millions way you can interpret the order of don't stop and don't deviate. Fact to a matter is, there was a kid stand in the middle of the road, the only carriage way and he is waving at you and ask you to stop. He may be innocent, maybe not. And you have your order not to stop, and not to take detour. As you get closer and closer, you are about 10 seconds away from running over him, the whole thing come down to what do you do about it?

Am i feel guilty about it? Yes of course, a kid died and anyone would feel guilty. Do i think i did a right thing? You bet. now, i don't know if he was innocent, or if he was instructed by the insurgent, i only know one thing, that's bring my man home alive. I did that and I have to believe all my decision i made in that war is right. There are no gap to think about it. This is how you do your job.
Nicely written.

Just a few differences. Giving an order like "Do not stop and Do not deviate from the route" is like giving a very broad and vague order. If the commander truly knows the area he is operating in, he would invariably know that the convoy may encounter civilians enroute. So, instead of such a order he must give out clear ROE.

i mean, i understand, specific orders for each and every situation cant be given and much have to be left for the local commander or to the soldier's initiative/judgment. i think, giving such orders especially if one is operating in COIN is detrimental and thus results into the heavy handedness the world complains of the yanks.

i mean, whereas the heli cover for the convoy when we know the route is dangerous. Was the route cleared by someone before this convoy was moved? Did someone check for the likely ambush sites? What was the say about the residents along the routes; friendly, hostile or neutral? What did the intelligence say about "today" when the convoy was to be moved - whats the likelihood of the convoy being attacked? etc etc.

i mean, that's how our convoys move and thus you dont see shooting everything that moves on the road.

If the commander knows these things i mentioned above, only then he is in the position of giving a 'correct' order, or else, "Do not stop and Do not deviate from the route" is a fine order. Just chop up anything that moves enroute and then try justifying it when you go back home, and then they complain they have PTSD outburst.
 
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Xeric,

You have to look at it this way---pak troops fighting in their locale are familiar with the sights and sounds---.

Foreign troops like the americans, australians, europeans, are totally out of their realm---. The topography is different, people are different, land, approach, aperance, mud housing, dress, LANGUAGE, SUICIDE BOMBERS, IED'S etc etc etc----so basically it is shoot first ask questions later.

Well that kind of mentality has saved a lots of troops---otoh the 'conscientious' approach of the pak troops have caused a lots of loss for the military personale as well---otherwise also known as ISLAMI BHAI approach has seen many a pak troops slaughtered by the enemy.

The u s law is very clear on any security issue---regardless if it is military or a police officer facing a threat.

You cannot approach a police officer in a threatening manner within 10 feet of the officer---he will shoot to kill---no questions asked---. Now this is against unarmed civilian. For armed---it is any distance.

Now take the case of the Ranger in karachi charged with murder---it is clear in the video that he has asked the victim multiple times to lay down---the victim refuse and grabs the ranger's rifle ---the ranger shoots and kills---now he has recieved a death sentence.

Now why do pak troops do not have PTSD---because muslims have always slaughtered the minorities in india at a whim without discretion---non muslims are filth and beneath human beings---kafirs---the justification of religion is behind the acts of brutality and when religion is made to justify things----then the soul is cleansed of any and all sins----thus no PTSD. So either you are a ghazi or a shaheed---in either case you have a religious benevolent right for killing without remorse.

Now otoh---trhe fundamental hindus and sikh don't have any problem and any remorse in killing of muslims---muslims are usurpers---they are murderers---they are outsiders---so there will be no issues of PTSD in the hindus and sikhs----. The warring hindus and sikh have a similar dislike for the muslims and will kill them with pleasure and gusto. No heartaches no pains---just pure pleasure and ecstasy. Does Modi have any PTSD---.

Similarly----for the born again christians in the u s military----they also kill in the name of god---they are also killing heathens----they are showing that their god is stronger than Allah---there will be a minimal number of PTSD candidates amongst their ranks---.

PTSD is all in the mind----kinder gentle middle of the line people---who are just doing the bidding of a nation state---following the orders---they have PTSD----others have enjoyed their deployment in afg and iraq---.

You thin the u s soldier who lit those bodies on fire---he will have PTSD---heck no----he will enjoys telling that story a thousand times over a six pack of beer.

JHUNGARY----you may not agree with me but there are BORN KILLERS ----it is just what triggers them to do what they do---that is critical---. This I am talking from first hand experience.

About a month ago---it was a big item of new here in u s---this guy who tracks serial killer and has written books and advised law enfrocemtn----just took a personality test---to his surprise---it came out positive for a serial killer---this man has not hurt anyone---he was surprised but some of his colleagues were not.
 
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Of course, it was. The only problem is the tens of thousands of deaths and the hundreds of thousands of refugees spilling over into other countries. That makes it an international problem now.

:)))) so tens of thousands of refugees give you right to join hands with al-Qaeda and launch attack on Syria along with these al-qaeda terrorists.

Thank you for putting forward this excuse.
 
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:)))) so tens of thousands of refugees give you right to join hands with al-Qaeda and launch attack on Syria along with these al-qaeda terrorists.

Thank you for putting forward this excuse.

No body has attacked Syria. It is an internal civil war.
 
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US and allies provided support, money and weapons to AL-QAEDA terrorists for fueling internal civil war rather started it.


Thank you for admitting that it is an internal civil war. Now that we agree on that, let us talk about the causes thereof. It is the gradual breakdown of law and order and failures of governance that lay down the foundations for the outbreak of civil war. Law and order and governance are purely internal matters of a country and their failures cannot be ascribed to any foreign forces. And if you think that these statements could also apply to Pakistan, you would be absolutely correct too.
 
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Xeric,

You have to look at it this way---pak troops fighting in their locale are familiar with the sights and sounds---.

Foreign troops like the americans, australians, europeans, are totally out of their realm---. The topography is different, people are different, land, approach, aperance, mud housing, dress, LANGUAGE, SUICIDE BOMBERS, IED'S etc etc etc
Well, if that be the case then who asks them to finger every hole that's out there? :D

On a serious note, i think they are quite experienced when it comes to an 'Expeditionary Force'. They have been doing it even before we existed and they plan to do it even better in the future too. Atleast that's what Gen Martin wants: Gen. Martin Dempsey's Wise Words on the Military Profession - World Report (usnews.com)

In my experience of working along them, i would say they are very thorough and exactly know what they are doing. At times i have found them to be even more knowledgeable than any local force operating there. So, the question is not f if they dont know how to do it, but if they want to do it right.
----so basically it is shoot first ask questions later.
Works very well if it had been the Crusades.


Well that kind of mentality has saved a lots of troops---otoh the 'conscientious' approach of the pak troops have caused a lots of loss for the military personale as well---otherwise also known as ISLAMI BHAI approach has seen many a pak troops slaughtered by the enemy.

Dil tu mera bhi yehe karta tha when i was there, but then what would differentiate you from the terrorist?

The u s law is very clear on any security issue---regardless if it is military or a police officer facing a threat.

You cannot approach a police officer in a threatening manner within 10 feet of the officer---he will shoot to kill---no questions asked---. Now this is against unarmed civilian. For armed---it is any distance.

i wish we too had such a law, but then our LEAs would have bent the law for their use too. Anyhow, i think we have moved into the right direction with the 'Protection of Pakistan Ordinance - 2013': Pakistan Tightens Detention Law for Terror Suspects ‹ Newsweek Pakistan

Now take the case of the Ranger in karachi charged with murder---it is clear in the video that he has asked the victim multiple times to lay down---the victim refuse and grabs the ranger's rifle ---the ranger shoots and kills---now he has recieved a death sentence.
That's how it is in Pakistan. i wont comment on it, unless both our police and population reach that level of education where they can behave sensibly. BTW, one should watch CSI Season 6 Episode 7 A Bullet Runs Through It (1) gives a guud insight on how the Americans avoid abuse of its 'free-to-kill-pass'. We are a long way from that.

Now why do pak troops do not have PTSD---because muslims have always slaughtered the minorities in india at a whim without discretion---non muslims are filth and beneath human beings---kafirs---the justification of religion is behind the acts of brutality and when religion is made to justify things----then the soul is cleansed of any and all sins----thus no PTSD. So either you are a ghazi or a shaheed---in either case you have a religious benevolent right for killing without remorse.

Now otoh---trhe fundamental hindus and sikh don't have any problem and any remorse in killing of muslims---muslims are usurpers---they are murderers---they are outsiders---so there will be no issues of PTSD in the hindus and sikhs----. The warring hindus and sikh have a similar dislike for the muslims and will kill them with pleasure and gusto. No heartaches no pains---just pure pleasure and ecstasy. Does Modi have any PTSD---.

Similarly----for the born again christians in the u s military----they also kill in the name of god---they are also killing heathens----they are showing that their god is stronger than Allah---there will be a minimal number of PTSD candidates amongst their ranks---.

Killing, of whatever form has to be justified, that's how it works.

PTSD is all in the mind----kinder gentle middle of the line people---who are just doing the bidding of a nation state---following the orders---they have PTSD----others have enjoyed their deployment in afg and iraq---.

You thin the u s soldier who lit those bodies on fire---he will have PTSD---heck no----he will enjoys telling that story a thousand times over a six pack of beer.
Agree.

About a month ago---it was a big item of new here in u s---this guy who tracks serial killer and has written books and advised law enfrocemtn----just took a personality test---to his surprise---it came out positive for a serial killer---this man has not hurt anyone---he was surprised but some of his colleagues were not.
i read some book once where the top 100 criminal on our time were discussed. They concluded, that being a serial killer is kinda hereditary or like, it's in the genes. Same goes for violence, may be PTSD too have a similar issue?
 
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Do u respect the person you killed for the reason that he was just a pawn like you following the order and if it would have been slightly off the reality- you would have been sleeping in his place?

Is it as easy killing for your country as it would have been to kill for survival of your family?
 
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When bullets whiz by you and make that very distinct sound or even graze you or worse -emotions run high and that has most powerful effect on how a person sees things......when you see people you are close to get killed, that also changes things

but quite frankly this is a subject liek virgins talking about sex....you understand the mechanics and processes but when youre actually in the situation its a whole other story

eventually you get used to it and dont think much but the first time you lose the 'virginity' with your rifle you will have thoughts in your head....it gets easier over time

i'm assuming we are talking about war here and not dakkoos in Karachi or sectarian/religious whackos who dont even aim or know who they are killing

i've never met anyone who was 'excited' about killing someone....but war is war and that's just what happens, what can you do

How are gun laws in Turkiye, is it a right to bear arms there?

northeast Turkiye (black sea region) is like their version of KPK/FATA except maybe more developed. That's where a lot of their small arms are manufactured and everyone and their brother has a pistol.

People can own arms if they have a license. They are much more disciplined over there than we are in Pakistan - which quite frankly - a lot of guns are in the hands of people who shouldnt be having them. You need laws ...that are enforced




p.s. My Zigana 9mm was made in Trabzon
 
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Nicely written.

Just a few differences. Giving an order like "Do not stop and Do not deviate from the route" is like giving a very broad and vague order. If the commander truly knows the area he is operating in, he would invariably know that the convoy may encounter civilians enroute. So, instead of such a order he must give out clear ROE.

i mean, i understand, specific orders for each and every situation cant be given and much have to be left for the local commander or to the soldier's initiative/judgment. i think, giving such orders especially if one is operating in COIN is detrimental and thus results into the heavy handedness the world complains of the yanks.

i mean, whereas the heli cover for the convoy when we know the route is dangerous. Was the route cleared by someone before this convoy was moved? Did someone check for the likely ambush sites? What was the say about the residents along the routes; friendly, hostile or neutral? What did the intelligence say about "today" when the convoy was to be moved - whats the likelihood of the convoy being attacked? etc etc.

i mean, that's how our convoys move and thus you dont see shooting everything that moves on the road.

If the commander knows these things i mentioned above, only then he is in the position of giving a 'correct' order, or else, "Do not stop and Do not deviate from the route" is a fine order. Just chop up anything that moves enroute and then try justifying it when you go back home, and then they complain they have PTSD outburst.

lol, i was just a middle man back then, i don't get to determine how and what order was to give.

Problem is, as usual, intelligence is lacking on site. If i remember correctly, those intel supplied was already 12 hours old. The situation on that FOB is critical as they are underfire. And IIRC, the route were ambush twice in the last 24 hours.

I would have no general objection if i have to gone in all gun blazing, giving the information i have at that time, but the problem is, things does not always like its seems.

Of course if you have time to gather more information the result would have been different and the order may get changed, but to that effect , that was not how it was at that day, and all i got is the indication that the shipment is urgent (As marked so) and there were enemy activities and it's vital that we get there.

I think they know there are civvies movement on route, the reason they give out an unclear order is they don't want to explicitly order to kill, hence they don't want to get into trouble and if it all go down hill, they can distant themselve from the responsibility. Which is quite common overthere.
 
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Do u respect the person you killed for the reason that he was just a pawn like you following the order and if it would have been slightly off the reality- you would have been sleeping in his place?

Is it as easy killing for your country as it would have been to kill for survival of your family?

Hi,

The easiest kill is for pleasure and thrill. Because then taking a life is like a game.

There is no respect for dead enemy in war---.

Abou,

You know the virgins can never take the last step. They just wake up.
 
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Hi,

The easiest kill is for pleasure and thrill. Because then taking a life is like a game.

There is no respect for dead enemy in war---.

Abou,

You know the virgins can never take the last step. They just wake up.
Hello dear sir,
Long time hope you are doing fine
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I never liked the idea of hunting for fun. So when ever I did kill an animal we ate it. But once a leopard attacked us during holidays in India around utarpradesh. One of our friend mr David during the attack got injured not by leopard but by his act.
I shot the leopard and his canine is still key ring to my SUV.
I cherished it but when my baby was born I kind of felt hesitant to pick up the key because may be I was wrong to enter his territory even though what I did was right to survive.
But for start I shouldn't be there.

So does it happen once the war is over and you realise the orders weren't right but u followed to fulfil the duty. But during your retirement when u get time to introspect you regret some decision.
 
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Hi,

The easiest kill is for pleasure and thrill. Because then taking a life is like a game.

There is no respect for dead enemy in war---.

Abou,

You know the virgins can never take the last step. They just wake up.


im not entirely inclined to agree with you on the first part, sir
 
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