UAE Mirage to PAF and SH to IAF Extract

[Rank]

i totally agree with PAFace.
-f-16
-jf-17
two 4th generation are enough and now we need a more advance partner for Fc-20

40 (Front line) 4th Gen are not good for such huge country defence in front of 4.5 Gen (huge amount of enemy Aircraft).

Point to be noted!

 

[MastanKhan]

India has been operating this platform since many years,
which implies they have had thousands of real and simulated war games on them,
This means that the Indians know every strength AND every weakness of the aircraft.

My question is why would PAF want to buy and rely on an aircraft that it's enemy knows how to bring down ?

As hard as it may seem, JF-17 and FC-20 are not known by our enemies,
and we can assume that for all near future Indians would not know about these planes. Surprise is priceless.

This is one edge that nothing can beat.
Remember all warfare is based on deception--Sun Tzu.

Sir,

Wake up and smell the roses---none of these fighters have fired a single shot in anger---none of these planes have been integrated into an operative sqdrn as of today---none of these planes are operatibve as of today---.

What is there to know about a jf 17---it is an average 2.5 gen aircraft with maybe a 3.5 gen radar and missiles---and missiles that are basically too heavy for this aircraft---the sd 10---the missile that is also not yet in full production phase yet.

What is it with my countrymen---have left all common sense out the door---don't they realize now that they have been lied to and had been had by the PAF for the 40 plus years---.

There is no secure airplane anywhere in the world except for the F 22---for every other plane, you can make a computer generated program how to defeat it if you have the right aircraft and missiles and electronics.

What does jf 17 have---a 3rd world nations pride and joy---in 2010 its radar will be still inferior to what a ten years old SU 30 has--it would still be inferior to what the MIG 21 bis has---what are the pakistanis dreaming---.

Open your minds to reality---look, listen, read and understand. Stop listening to this brain washing propaganda from the PAF---I use the term PAF and not the armed force---because the army is well settled in what its needs are and what it has on the ground---the navy is focused in what it can do with what it has---our weakest link is the only one who have been bragging that they are the strongest link.

The FC 20 coming in 2015 sounds like it the word of GOD---they won't be here in 2015---they may start to come in by that time---maybe by 2018--2020 we may have them all---and what do we have---. In year 2020 we may have a plane that is somewhat equal to mirage m2k9----wow---and here we were trying to destroy the iaf by huffing and puffing on them.

The jf 17 that we have maybe maybe maybe in its at the earliest may get close to the m2k9 will be in the 3rd upgrade---.

Those who say about the abilities of close combat by the m2k9 forget that the greek m2k's shot down the turk F 16 in close combat---so please don't get there.

It has been the front line aircraft for the french air force for many decades---it is beyond common sense to think that the french would have an interceptor that could not do a dog fight. It is just a propaganda by the opposition.

All the iaf front line 450 planes are far far superior in weaponery and elctronics and missiles than anything that pak has to offer to this day----we want to fight these 450 with our 18 blk 52 f 16's.

There is more to weaponery than what shows on the surface----if the indian bvr's range is less at lower altitude---so then would be the range of the paf missiles as well---so the difference factor would stay the same---it would still favour the opponent by the same ratio as it did at a higher altitude.

What paf is doing is trying to plug the holes in the dikes---like little Hans did with his fingers---.

The f 16 blk 52 can be in geopardy any moment---pak just has to shoot down only one u s drone or do something silly---and pooooffffff---there goes our saviour.

You got to plan what you have in your hands---so many pakistanis ask---how is pak air force rated in the world---and I have never gone into the discussion---well I want to---today's pak air force is indeed a thrid rate air force with third rate air craft with obsolete machinery. They can't shoot their way out of their own house even.

The hidden hand says that we have this and we have that and we have bvr's that we got from somewhere but never any proof or picture ever---not one picture---if they had it---they had to fly them for practise---someone would have taken some shots somewhere---.

Indeed the situation is hopeless. There is too much left at maybe's---there is too much left on fate---there is too much left on how the dice will roll and the PAF has been the best at rolling the dice for the last 40 plus years..

 

[Sinnerman108]

^^^
Most of what Mastan has said is true, pragmatic and to a very large extent it is unquestionable.

I never said that PAF should not think about procuring Mirages, it is a very capable plane indeed.

However my arguments still holds and if the decision to procure does materialize one should be aware of the attached con.

Although I have been a critic of PAF but when the final draft will be prepared I will argue to factor in at least the recent developments in Engineering and appreciate the what ever little is being done in regard modernizing our technology.

I will also argue the case of further opportunities for our engineers and our own core technology.

I think the decision has to be a balance between two factors

A need to immediate include a potent platform as Mirage
AND
A need to further strengthen indigenous technology and production capability.

None of the above two can wait, and I think we will have to pursue both in parallel.

Best Regards

 

[Telescope]

Since ridiculously low amounts were being mentioned wrt the cost of these jets, I dug out this old article.....Pl see the date too.

October 11, 2006 by LP News Team

Live Punjab News Service

New Delhi -- India is re-examining the option of buying 12 second-hand French Mirage 2000-5 fighters from Qatar after having shelved their acquisition last year over cost differences.

Get original file (4KB)

The Indian Air Force's (IAF) plans to buy the aircraft - nine single seats and three twin-seat trainers - is part of its "stopgap" plans to reinforce its depleting fighter squadrons, over which IAF chief Air Chief Marshal S.P. Tyagi had recently conveyed his concern to the government.
The Mirage 2000-5 had been cleared by the cabinet committee on security headed by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in March 2005, but quietly abandoned after India's "embarrassingly low" offer to Qatar.
"The fighters have 80-85 per cent of their operational life intact," Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee had declared last year.
Qatar acquired the French fighters in 1997 and has used them sparingly.
"Pressuring Qatar into selling the Mirage 2000-5 fighters to India appears, in the light of the IAF's low offer, to have merely been a tactic by India to stop them being sold to Pakistan three years ago," diplomatic sources said, declining to be identified. The Qataris, he added, felt India was making a mockery of the fighter purchase.
During a visit to Qatar in January 2003, then deputy prime minister L.K. Advani is believed to have told the Qatari authorities that India would be forced to "reconsider" a major gas contract if the Sheikhdom decided to sell the Mirage 2000-5s to Pakistan as it was planning.
Qatar was reportedly under pressure to "dispose of" the aircraft from the US, which had established a major base in the country for the Iraqi invasion and was averse to the presence of French technicians from servicing the fighters. Consequently, Qatar had decided to dispose them off to a Muslim nation like Pakistan.
Pakistan, for its part, was keen on the Qatari offer not only to augment its diminishing air assets but also to try and achieve parity with the IAF's Mirage-2000 fleet acquired in the late 1980s.
Thereafter, in initial talks India reportedly indicated a willingness to pay around $600 million for the fighters and a host of additional ordnance, including some 500 air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles when Qatar's Emir Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa Al-Thani visited Delhi in April 2005.
But the $375 million offer extended by the IAF delegation that visited Qatar a few months later in June 2005 led to negotiations being terminated.
The proposed Mirage 2000-5 deal could be a tripartite agreement involving manufacturers Dassault Aviation, who would be responsible for upgrading the fighters with new avionics and mission systems before delivering them to the IAF.

 

[MastanKhan]

That is very very true---we cannot forget indigenous engineering technology---and production capability---but the only that the paf has been busy is in pursuing those----it is totally blind to the NOW air defence and strike issue of the nation.

I believe that there is too much rift between the paf and army---and paf is playing it extremely arrogantly---paf is taking it like no one can speak into the matters of air force---I believe that army should be the ultimate boss---they need to dictate what the air force is going to do and paf needs to tow the line. Paf need to learn to be a part of the team---they have been popping their champagne bottle corks for their own personal victories for too long---that mentalioty needs to change---it should be all or nothing.

 

[Super Falcon]

why not navy buys these for its naval aviation use we already have Mirage III for naval avation use

 

[pakpower]

The bottom line is as long as Zardari is president we cannot get any good jet except chinnese jets and that too come as a friendly loan.

 

[Sinnerman108]

That is very very true---we cannot forget indigenous engineering technology---and production capability---but the only that the paf has been busy is in pursuing those----it is totally blind to the NOW air defence and strike issue of the nation.

I believe that there is too much rift between the paf and army---and paf is playing it extremely arrogantly---paf is taking it like no one can speak into the matters of air force---I believe that army should be the ultimate boss---they need to dictate what the air force is going to do and paf needs to tow the line. Paf need to learn to be a part of the team---they have been popping their champagne bottle corks for their own personal victories for too long---that mentalioty needs to change---it should be all or nothing.

Agreed,
I am not sure this is the right place, else I can quote specific examples.

From my experience I can say that defense establishments in Pakistan and for that matter most of the third world countries are
vendor driven, instead of user driven.

I do feel that there should be a central coordination authority charged
with smooth implementation and integration of technologies through out the armed forces.

None of the forces are any better than others,
It will take a very power leader to change all of this

 

[pak-yes]

Thereafter, in initial talks India reportedly indicated a willingness to pay around $600 million for the fighters and a host of additional ordnance, including some 500 air-to-air and air-to-surface missiles when Qatar's Emir Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa Al-Thani visited Delhi in April 2005

The proposed Mirage 2000-5 deal could be a tripartite agreement involving manufacturers Dassault Aviation, who would be responsible for upgrading the fighters with new avionics and mission systems before delivering them to the IAF.

But these 600 million also included ordnance and the up gradation cost(which can be significant).And Besides UAE is keen to sell these Air Crafts soon so they can get Rafale. we can persuade them to sell us cheap if President Zardari or especially NS uses their Influence.
Because defense deals are more than just about money.

 

[BATMAN]

The bottom line is as long as Zardari is president we cannot get any good jet except chinnese jets and that too come as a friendly loan.

Is there a possibility to excahnge those soft loans for procuring wheat? than please, inform Mr. Zardari he may award a cheque from BB income support to the informer or a job offer in PIA.

Sorry for being unserious but wheat against cash payments of F-16 will remain a bright hall mark of PPP.

On a serious note, i like the pragmistic approach presented by hon. Mastan Khan but JF-17 are better than our exisitng F-16....this means they are not that bad and can handle indian mig's quite well.
Neither UAE mirrages can be equal to F-16 blk-52 but suerly better than our F-16 due to BVR and refuling etc.
Any how, i personaly see more of lag in political will rather than PAF, in case of mirrage saga of Pakistan.

I agree to rest all but still indians have their own issues ranging from maintainence and reliability of its weapons etc.

This deal would only benifits PAF if we get it around 10 million and within one year.

In shape of JF-17 we get brand new plane for 15 million with Chinese avionics which satisfy the requirement.
SD-10 remains a heavy tool but in real war the effectiveness of indian BVR depends at which distance indians will release them.
I think it would be hard for IAF to beat SAMs if they try to cross by the time indians cross border it is WVR.

 

[jupiter2007]

The bottom line is as long as Zardari is president we cannot get any good jet except chinnese jets and that too come as a friendly loan.

Very true, Zardari is the most corrupted Politician in the history of Pakistan.

 

[shanixee]

i have got fw friends in the airforce and as far as i remember they did talked abt PAF piolets getting training on MK2 but this is 10 years old story...and when i asked them they said that maybe PAF has a plan....and even now in the start it is mentioned that Paf is 1 of the customer..i mean it might be given to pakistan or eastern europe..and i think pakistan airforce must go for MK2 as soon as possible...the reasons i belive are because in the mid of this year F16 will start upgrading and will take almost 3 years to complete.....50 JF 17 will also take another 2 to 3 years... we will be getting J10 in 2014 and 2015. so in this 6 years gap we do need to fill the space....we hve got huge experiance in maintaining mirage we have almost overhauled most of them from scrach in fact we can better handdle them then india.....so we should not let this oppertunity go...atlast we can imigietly replace our mirages wheich are not rose upgraded and are 30 to 40 years old...and UAE is our brotherly country i think they can give them to us in soft loan...rest i think PAF knows better wat they want and how they can achive their goals...but as far as i know we must get them.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

When it comes to the sales of major weapons system or anything else, there is a lots of propaganda and sales pitches and sales brochures that make claims of astronomical proportions.

A similiar claim was made against the m2k's that it is not a good in a close dog fight----well the problem is that is where the reader stops and in process of due time, the rest of the information disappears.

The m2k came out just after the F 16----there was a big competition to get the sales---indeed it may not come close to the F 16's but there were many many many planes that it could beat hands down. If the F 16 was rated a 10 on a scale of 1---10, the m2k would be somewhere a 9---9.5 and not all air forces had the F 16's.

But that part was not picked up---because as it becomes fashionable to put down the second best, the m2k got butchered. People forgot that the phantom was also a very very heavy and sluggish aircraft as compared to a mig 21 fo that era---but guess what---better equipment, weapons systems and better fighter training made it a killer aircraft with the usaf and israeli af.

The french known as very poor sales people could not do anything to save the reputation of the m2k---and the lack of interest by paf in the 80's just didn't do much for this extremely capable fighter interceptor and strike aircraft.

In capabilities, the m2k9 is pretty much the same as the Blk 52 f 16---the weapons syetms and electronics are very similiar----the indian af has nothing in store to match its performance except for the su 30 in air combat.

Reader must be aware that in the next 10 years, paf will not have any aircraft fully integrated in large quantities which could out do the m2k by a large margin. What ever we have in 2020 may barely out perform the m2k9---and there are doubts about that as well.

A prudent approach by the paf would be to get the m2k9's----reduce the number of jf 17's for the time being---jf 17 is a home grown plane---paf can go back and get more of them whenever they want---just like the f7pg's.

Ther only problem over here at this time is that the paf may feel that if it does that, then nay sayers would say---we told you the jf 17 was not good enough---and the paf would feel ashamed and embarrassed and in order to not get an egg on their faces----they would rather commit to the jf 17 rather than make ammends---and go for the m2k9's.

It needs a great courage and resource to stand up in front of the parliament and admit that we need help---we did the best to our known abilities and seemingly it is not enough---we now have an oppurtunity to make ammends.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

That is very very true---we cannot forget indigenous engineering technology---and production capability---but the only that the paf has been busy is in pursuing those----it is totally blind to the NOW air defence and strike issue of the nation.

I believe that there is too much rift between the paf and army---and paf is playing it extremely arrogantly---paf is taking it like no one can speak into the matters of air force---I believe that army should be the ultimate boss---they need to dictate what the air force is going to do and paf needs to tow the line. Paf need to learn to be a part of the team---they have been popping their champagne bottle corks for their own personal victories for too long---that mentalioty needs to change---it should be all or nothing.

MASTAN KHAN

You mean the Air strategy and the new stuff has to be approved by the Army first ?
are you sure the Army isn't gonna convert it into DHA cuz the last time i checked Army was more like a Land Mafia

 

[Sinnerman108]

A prudent approach by the paf would be to get the m2k9's----reduce the number of jf 17's for the time being---jf 17 is a home grown plane---paf can go back and get more of them whenever they want---just like the f7pg's.

That is the moral of the story.
I say get the Mirages now too.
keep producing JF17 and J-10 if possible in smaller numbers,
Wait for economy to get better
and then go full blow on home production.

Thread closed ?