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UAE Mirage to PAF and SH to IAF Extract

I do not understand why some of the nations like Vietnam/Indonesia/morocco/Algeria have getting their hands on some serious good stuff they have ease in procuring platforms oh include Thailand too while what in the hell with the PAF in procuring a right platform why is our policy narrow and short term? I've asked this question with no satisfactory answer to why PAF doesn't have a long term plan in procuring a right fight platform true multirole to get over with once and for all atleast for 2 decades in good number.

Just a wild guess..

a) I believe PAF doctorine is defensive i.e. you want to deny your enemy(read india) air superiority in your air-space. There is no way PAF can have offensive posture against IAF...period
b) PAF has always been cash starved and did loose a decade of modernization in 90's...Famous F16 saga...
c) This one to me is the most important - Since your economy is in bad shape it is very important for you to spend every penny very wisely especially when your adversary is enjoying a booming economy and people lining up to sell state of art weapons...Your concentration is more on how to counter India's superiority and deny IAF any significance over your Air Space...I might be wrong but instead of Mirages(to me their main role is attack) concentration is on Jf-17 which will play the role of interceptor(defence)....This program is very important(because of obvious reasons) for PAF and thus the top priority...



We must enter serious discussions with Russia even if we have to apologize for Soviet war!

The same reason we will not choose F-16's PAF would not like to have similar Aircrafts that IAF is using for decades...Secondly even if we keep our close relations with russia aside and just look at it purely from economics russia cannot loose a far more lucrative defence market over Pakistan....We always try our level best to deny you modernization wherever we can so just imagine how much noise we will create if russia chooses to provide you state-of-art weapons which are only intented to be used against us...

I believe your best bet is China with slowly and surely moving towards being indegenous... Thus to me JF-17 makes perfect sense...Now if you are saying that PAF can afford both JF-17 and Mirages and they are not then surely something to worry about...
 
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defensive doctrine doesn't mean you keep those dacade 2 dacades old platforms against a superior new platforms..mirages are our need but in long term we are gravely in need of Rafale/J-11 These F-16s will be good for the next 8 years so will be those Mirage 3/5 in long run what is there for PAF aside from J-10 we need a good western multirole platform either Rafale or J-11 with western avionics...or either go back to the drawing boards amend the JF-17 thunder design reborn another F-16 like medium fighter i would be glad to hear F-16 got copied once again.
 
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defensive doctrine doesn't mean you keep those dacade 2 dacades old platforms against a superior new platforms..mirages are our need but in long term we are gravely in need of Rafale/J-11 These F-16s will be good for the next 8 years so will be those Mirage 3/5 in long run what is there for PAF aside from J-10 we need a good western multirole platform either Rafale or J-11 with western avionics...or either go back to the drawing boards amend the JF-17 thunder design reborn another F-16 like medium fighter i would be glad to hear F-16 got copied once again.

Very valid statement...However understand the dilemna(again this is my guess - so you would know better than me)....F-16's have definitely given PAF lot of edge however it has also done lot of harm to you....when you say western avionics and platform who knows you are once again falling in the trap... I can very confidently say that russia is not going to impose any sanctions on us even during war...How confident are you about western platform and avionics???...Secondly what number you think can make you confortable against IAF??? We already have over 100 MKI's and the number is increasing....So i believe PAF wants a much more reliable platform which is sanction free..cheap(for mass production) and still do the job....
 
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IAF is no more interested in mirage 2000-9
 
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Mirage 2000 is a multi-role combat fighter from Dassault Aviation of France. It has been operational with the French Air Force since 1984, and has been selected by Abu Dhabi, Egypt, Greece, India, Peru, Qatar, Taiwan and the United Arab Emirates.

Mirage 2000 fighters in operation with the French Air Force are: Mirage 2000C/B single seater and two seater for air defence; Mirage 2000N, two seater, designed for all weather nuclear penetration at low altitude and very high speed; Mirage 2000D, an upgraded version of the Mirage 2000N, for automated bombing using conventional and laser guided munitions; and Mirage 2000-5, incorporating advanced avionics, new multiple target air-to-ground and air-to-air firing procedures using the RDY radar and new sensor and control systems.

Orders for 110 Mirage 2000-5 have been placed by the air forces of France (37), Taiwan (60 aircraft), Qatar (12) and Greece.

"Mirage 2000 is a multi-role combat fighter."Greece acquired 15 Mirage 2000-5 mk2 and upgraded ten of its Mirage 2000 to the same standard. The first entered service in September 2004 and deliveries concluded in November 2007. The United Arab Emirates ordered 32 2000-9 aircraft, a customised version of the 2000-5, delivered between 2003 and 2007.

In July 2005, the Government of Brazil agreed to purchase 12 ex-French Air Force Mirage 2000C aircraft. Deliveries began in September 2006.

Dassault has received a contract to upgrade the French Air Force's Mirage 2000N to K3 standard. The K3 upgrade includes the operation of the MBDA ASMPA nuclear stand-off missile and a new Thales Optronics Reco NG reconnaissance pod.

In October 2008, three French Air Force Mirage 2000D aircraft were deployed to Kandahar in Afghanistan in support of the Nato International Security Assistance Force (ISAF).

Cockpit

Mirage 2000-5 is available as a single-seater or two-seater multi-role fighter. The aircraft has hands-on throttle and stick (HOTAS) control. Mirage 2000-5 incorporates the Thales VEH 3020 head-up display and five cathode ray tube multifunction advanced pilot systems interface (APSI) displays.

The combined head-up / head-level display is collimated at infinity, and presents data relating to flight control, navigation, target engagement and weapon firing. Sensor and system management data is presented on two coloured lateral displays.

Weapons

Mirage 2000 has nine hardpoints for carrying weapon system payloads: five on the fuselage and two on each wing. The single-seat version is also armed with two internally mounted, high-firing-rate 30mm guns.

Air-to-air weapons include the MICA multi-target air-to-air intercept and combat missiles, and the Magic 2 combat missiles, both from MBDA (formed out of a merger between Matra BAe Dynamics, EADS Aerospatiale and Alenia Marconi Systems). The aircraft can carry four MICA missiles, two Magic missiles and three drop tanks simultaneously. The Mirage 2000-5 can fire the MBDA Super 530D missile or the MBDA Sky Flash air-to-air missile as an alternative to the MICA missile.

"Mirage 2000 is equipped to carry a range of air-to-surface missiles."Mirage 2000 is also equipped to carry a range of air-to-surface missiles and weapons including laser-guided bombs.

These include the MBDA BGL 1000 laser-guided bomb, MBDA AS30L, MBDA Armat anti-radar missile, MBDA AM39 Exocet anti-ship missile, MBDA rocket launchers, MBDA Apache stand-off weapon, and the stealthy cruise missile, SCALP.

The Mirage 2000-9 aircraft ordered by the United Arab Emirates carries the Black Shahine missile being developed by MBDA. The MBDA Storm Shadow / Scalp EG stand-off cruise missile will arm French AF Mirage 2000D, Greek Mirage 2000-5 and UAE Mirage 2000-9 aircraft. Storm Shadow was first deployed on UK RAF Tornado aircraft during Operation Iraqi Freedom in March 2003. Scalp EG entered service on French AF Mirage 2000D in December 2003.

MBDA has been awarded a contract in October 2003 to integrate the ASMPA medium-range air-to-ground missile on the French Air Force's new Mirage 2000NK3 aircraft. ASMPA has a tactical nuclear warhead and will replace the ASMP missile in service on the Mirage 2000N since 1988.

Targeting

Mirage 2000 has an upgraded digital weapon delivery and navigation system (WDNS). The aircraft can be fitted with a TV/CT CLDP laser designation pod from Thales Thales Optronics, which provides the capability to fire laser-guided weapons by day and night. A number of French Air Force Mirage 2000D aircraft are being fitted with the Damocles laser designation pod with thermal imaging camera, also from Thales Optronics, under a contract awarded in July 2008.

Mirage 2000-5 is equipped with a multi-mode Thales RDY doppler radar which provides multi-targeting capability in the air defence role and the radar also has look down / shoot down mode of operation. The radar can simultaneously detect up to 24 targets and carry out track while scan on the eight highest priority threats.

Countermeasures

The aircraft is equipped with a self-protection suite installed internally. Mirage 2000-5 carries the ICMS mk2 automated integrated countermeasures system from Thales.

"The aircraft is equipped with a self-protection suite installed internally."ICMS mk2 incorporates a receiver and associated signal processing system in the nose section for the detection of missile command data links.

The system can be interfaced to a new programmable mission planning and a post-mission analysis ground system.

Engines

Mirage 2000 is equipped with an SNECMA M53-P2 turbofan engine, which provides 64kN thrust and 98kN with afterburn. The air intakes are fitted with an adjustable half-cone-shaped centre body, which provides an inclined shock of air pressure for highly efficient air input
 
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PAF current fleet of Mirage 3 & 5 ROSE UPGRADED are cannon fodder to SU30MKI and mig29m/mirage2000 EVEN MIG21 BISON BVR equipped fighters.

The reason quite simply they are subsoinc and cannot run or hide from a mach3 BVR missle.

If they get locked on they can hardly achieve MACH 1 and will be caught out by mach3 missles like matra530 R27 & R77 bvrs

Thats why the mirage2000 on the cheap from a SO CALLED FRIENDLY ISLAMIC friend UAE is so good an opportunity.

IAF is will not get these they will get MMRCA as the guy states these will be frm USA
 
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PAF current fleet of Mirage 3 & 5 ROSE UPGRADED are cannon fodder to SU30MKI and mig29m/mirage2000 EVEN MIG21 BISON BVR equipped fighters.

The reason quite simply they are subsoinc and cannot run or hide from a mach3 BVR missle.


If they get locked on they can hardly achieve MACH 1 and will be caught out by mach3 missles like matra530 R27 & R77 bvrs

Thats why the mirage2000 on the cheap from a SO CALLED FRIENDLY ISLAMIC friend UAE is so good an opportunity.

IAF is will not get these they will get MMRCA as the guy states these will be frm USA

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Its always good to research before making a false and dumb statement like that, my suggestion is to research the capabilites of Rose Upgraded Mirages
 
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PAF current fleet of Mirage 3 & 5 ROSE UPGRADED are cannon fodder to SU30MKI and mig29m/mirage2000 EVEN MIG21 BISON BVR equipped fighters.

The reason quite simply they are subsoinc and cannot run or hide from a mach3 BVR missle.

If they get locked on they can hardly achieve MACH 1 and will be caught out by mach3 missles like matra530 R27 & R77 bvrs

Thats why the mirage2000 on the cheap from a SO CALLED FRIENDLY ISLAMIC friend UAE is so good an opportunity.

IAF is will not get these they will get MMRCA as the guy states these will be frm USA

My Friend you can never out run a missile. In any case, any air to air missile you can not out run it.

Avoiding BVR is a complete subject that is taught on all levels. Anti BVR tactics mainly focuses on reducing the closer rate or delta mach. these days the two most in fashion anti BVR tactics are hight split with chaffs and a notch or 90 deg turn to the enemy. the more aggressive version is the "Meeting the notch concept". in this tactic you keep on closing on to the enemy aircraft and breaking his lock periodical by very small degree of sharp turns. In the end its a close combat , back to IR missiles, I don't mean it happens every time but most of the time its close combat that decides the winner.
One more thing BVR is a bit over rated threat, there success rate isn't much thats why the rich air forces fire two missiles at one target. A semi active BVR can and will become a liability to a pilot who isn't good enough with radar work and believe me once the lock is broken for the first time a semi active BVR guy exits out of the fight most of the time.
As far as the ranges of BVR are concerned, they reduce rapidly with decrease in altitude and clouser rate or aspect angle, so its not like that you buy BVR and then you can fly with a redbull in one hand and the stick in the other. :pop:
 
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what ever if they are coming at cheaper rate why not make navy avation more powerfull remeber these mirages have edge over all indian naval fighter jets
 
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NYT had accused Zardari of taking commission in Mirage 2000-5 deal
Monday, January 25, 2010
By Sabir Shah

LAHORE: While a leading French newspaper ‘Liberation’ has very recently alleged President Asif Ali Zardari of receiving kickbacks from a Paris-based naval defense firm Messrs DCN International in September 1994, it was 12 years ago in January 1998 that the New York Times accused him of seeking commissions during the same year from another French company Messrs Dassault in the sale of Mirage fighter planes.

A peek into the New York Times story, “Bhutto clan leaves trail of corruption in Pakistan,” reveals that it was actually the ‘mysterious’ burglary at the Geneva offices of the Bhutto family’s Swiss lawyer Jens Schllegelmilch in 1997 that had led to the surfacing of a string of corruption allegations against late premier Benazir Bhutto and her spouse Asif Zardari, consequently lying the foundation of cases against the duo in Switzerland.

These documents stolen from Swiss Attorney Schllegelmilch’s offices then formed the base of this New York Times story of January 9, 1998, after they were publicised by a US investigative company Messrs Jules Kroll Associates, which was hired shortly before the 1997 polls by the caretaker regime of one of PPP’s founding fathers Malik Meraj Khalid to look for corruption evidence against Benazir Bhutto and Zardari in Europe.

Hired by late Premier Meraj Khalid, under directives from the then President and PPP’s ‘Brutus’ Farooq Leghari, Messrs Jules Kroll Associates then followed the money trail and its findings later helped the second Nawaz Sharif regime to get Benazir and Zardari convicted in Swiss money-laundering cases between 1997 and 1999, though an appeal to set aside the punishment was later accepted by the Swiss court and helped the duo save its blushes.

The New York Times reporter John Burns in his report under review had stated, “Potentially, the most lucrative deal uncovered by these documents involved the effort by Dassault Aviation, the French military contractor, to sell 32 Mirage fighter planes to Pakistan. These were to replace two squadrons of American F-16s whose purchase was blocked when the Bush administration determined in 1990 that Pakistan was covertly developing nuclear weapons.”

John Burns had gone on to write, “In April 1995, Dassault found itself in arm’s length negotiations with Zardari and Amir, a Paris-based lawyer who had lived for years in the United States, working among other things as an executive of the now-defunct Bank of Commerce and Credit International (BCCI).”

The New York Times had further written, “Schlegelmilch, the Geneva lawyer, wrote a memo for his files describing his talks at Dassault’s headquarters on the Champs-Elysees in Paris. According to the memo, the company’s executives offered a “remuneration” of 5 per cent to Marleton Business SA, an offshore company controlled by Zardari. The memo indicated that in addition to Dassault, the payoff would be made by two companies involved in the manufacture of the Mirages: Snecma, an engine manufacturer, and Thomson-CSF, a maker of aviation electronics.

The story further read, “The documents offered intriguing insights into the anxieties that the deal aroused. In a letter faxed to Geneva, the Dassault executives — Jean-Claude Carrayrou, Dassault’s Legal Affairs Director, and Pierre Chouzenoux, International Sales Manager — wrote that “for reasons of confidentiality,” there would be only one copy of the contract guaranteeing the payoff. It would be kept at Dassault’s Paris office, available to Schlegelmilch only during working hours.”

John Burns further wrote, “The deal reached with Schlegelmilch reflected concerns about French corruption laws, which forbid bribery of French officials but permit payoffs to foreign officials, and even make the payoffs tax-deductible in France. The Swiss and the French have resisted American pressures to sign a worldwide treaty that would hold all businesses to the ethical standards of American law, which sets criminal penalties for bribing foreign officials.”

According to the New York Times, the documents publicized by Jules Kroll also offered intriguing insights into the anxieties that the Cotecna/SGS deal and the ARY Gold Import case had aroused.

The newspaper had gone on to write, “Officials leading the inquiry in Pakistan say that the $100 million they have identified so far is only a small part of a much larger windfall from corrupt activities. They maintain that an inquiry begun in Islamabad immediately after Bhutto’s dismissal in 1996 found evidence that her family and associates generated more than $1.5 billion in illicit profits through kickbacks in virtually every sphere of government activity.”

On the documents stolen from the offices of Bhutto family’s lawyer in Geneva, the New York Times wrote, “The Pakistani officials say their key break came summer of 1997 when an informer offered to sell documents that appeared to have been taken from the Geneva office of Jens Schlegelmilch, whom Bhutto described as the family’s attorney for more than 20 years. The Pakistani investigators have confirmed that the original asking price for the documents was $10 million. Eventually the seller traveled to London and concluded the deal for $1 million in cash.”

Interestingly, many of the facts narrated by The New York Times in its afore-quoted article of January 9, 1998, were also mentioned by Robert Dougal Watt, the Auditor of the European Court of Auditors at Luxembourg, in his September 2002 letter addressed to the European Ombudsman and Members of the European Parliament.

In his letter, Dougal Watt had stated, “Between 1994 and 1996, executives of both SGS and Cotecna bribed Benazir Bhutto, the then premier of Pakistan, in return for customs collection contracts. In 1997, the office of the Bhutto’s Swiss lawyer was burgled and documents incriminating SGS, Cotecna and Bhuttos were stolen. These documents were subsequently publicized by the private investigation firm, Jules Kroll Associates.”
 
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Thank you MastanKhan for giving us the picture of today's PAF..
I do not understand why some of the nations like Vietnam/Indonesia/morocco/Algeria have getting their hands on some serious good stuff they have ease in procuring platforms oh include Thailand too while what in the hell with the PAF in procuring a right platform why is our policy narrow and short term? I've asked this question with no satisfactory answer to why PAF doesn't have a long term plan in procuring a right fight platform true multirole to get over with once and for all atleast for 2 decades in good number.


Hi,

Thankyou very much for taking the discussion to the next level. You know those nations did what they did---because they don't strut around like PAF pilots and talk the talk---they keep their heads low---do their jobs---think ahead for the welfare of the nation and get the right equipment.

What do you hear from a PAF pilot everytime they open their mouth----only self praise---how good and cocky they are---you know what---GOOD is known to be the enemy of the best. Self praise destroys what ever good there was left.

PAF has nothing today---F7PG is 2nd gen plane---mirage 3-5 rose upgrades are 3rd gen---the F 16's that pak has---the original ones---are barely 3rd gen---so what does paf has that they are so arrogant about---except for what we are going to get---they will be here some day.

They claim top be the only air force who has made a fighter----you know why----because other airforces have established industries to make one---current and retd air force officials are a part of the team manufacturing fighter aircraft---paf is making such a big deal about it----wake up---it is your job to have an the right aircraft in your inventory---how you get it is not the problem of the civilians---and we are tired of your bragging all the time---put the money where the mouth is today.

We are tired of all these **** and bull---.
 
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Thank you MastanKhan for giving us the picture of today's PAF..
I do not understand why some of the nations like Vietnam/Indonesia/morocco/Algeria have getting their hands on some serious good stuff they have ease in procuring platforms oh include Thailand too while what in the hell with the PAF in procuring a right platform why is our policy narrow and short term? I've asked this question with no satisfactory answer to why PAF doesn't have a long term plan in procuring a right fight platform true multirole to get over with once and for all atleast for 2 decades in good number.


Hi,

Thankyou very much for taking the discussion to the next level. You know those nations did what they did---because they don't strut around like PAF pilots and talk the talk---they keep their heads low---do their jobs---think ahead for the welfare of the nation and get the right equipment.

What do you hear from a PAF pilot everytime they open their mouth----only self praise---how good and cocky they are---you know what---GOOD is known to be the enemy of the best. Self praise destroys what ever good there was left.

PAF has nothing today---F7PG is 2nd gen plane---mirage 3-5 rose upgrades are 3rd gen---the F 16's that pak has---the original ones---are barely 3rd gen---so what does paf has that they are so arrogant about---except for what we are going to get---they will be here some day.

They claim top be the only air force who has made a fighter----you know why----because other airforces have established industries to make one---current and retd air force officials are a part of the team manufacturing fighter aircraft---paf is making such a big deal about it----wake up---it is your job to have an the right aircraft in your inventory---how you get it is not the problem of the civilians---and we are tired of your bragging all the time---put the money where the mouth is today.

We are tired of all these **** and bull---.


100% agreed..very good post..

I think if we take 63 years of our history into account than the conclusion points towards the civilians...
We always blamed politicians/army for everything but we never stood up..(practical)

If we stood up than Pakistan would have been a better place..
Blaming others is easy..

One day we "have" to stand up until than watch Lahori badmash---
 
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India has been operating this platform since many years,
which implies they have had thousands of real and simulated war games on them,
This means that the Indians know every strength AND every weakness of the aircraft.

My question is why would PAF want to buy and rely on an aircraft that it's enemy knows how to bring down ?

As hard as it may seem, JF-17 and FC-20 are not known by our enemies,
and we can assume that for all near future Indians would not know about these planes. Surprise is priceless.

This is one edge that nothing can beat.
Remember all warfare is based on deception--Sun Tzu.
 
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