UAE Mirage to PAF and SH to IAF Extract

[BATMAN]

I'm convinced that PAF should try to get one or twosquardens of M2K.

At the same time i believe that next year we would have 18 blk2 F-16 and about 25 to 30 Thunders but those would merely help to replace old planes like of phantoms and F-7, No need to reduce the number of JF-17.
for obvious reasons top rated planes are required to fill the gap of next 3 years if not 10
M2K if not top rated but still closest to F-16 advance blocks.

 

[MastanKhan]

MASTAN KHAN

You mean the Air strategy and the new stuff has to be approved by the Army first ?
are you sure the Army isn't gonna convert it into DHA cuz the last time i checked Army was more like a Land Mafia

Hi,

Maybe in a way---maybe PAF needs someone from outside to look inside and tell them what is wrong with the picture. You have to look at it this way---why is one branch of the millitary is well equipped and prepared and the other one is running around in circles with no direction. Would the disparity between these two cohesive bodies not surprise an ardent observer---shouldn't the question be asked at the lowest level and then going to the highest level---why such is the case.

Why is the most important part of the equation is still operating out dated out moded equipment---isn't this a concern to any pakistanis---why after all these years, we are barely a step or two ahead of where we were in 90--91.

Isn't it a matter of concern that paf is no show at kargil---isn't it a matter of concern that iaf's mig 25's flew over pakistan whenever they pleased to---isn't it a matter of concern that even after 8 years of 9/11we got nothing substantial to show by the air force---.

Pakistanis civilians---pakistani public has let the paf off the hook for over 4 decades---pakistani people have been told lies about operational capabilities of the air force and when the time came to perform either in 1965 or in 1971,paf didnot operate at 110% of its capabilities as it was supposed to do---its effectiveness was barely 60---70 % of its capabilities and were it not for the less than lackluster performance by the iaf, we would really be in a terrible shape. There were incidences of some of the sqdrns performing great tasks, but over all, there was a lack of leadership decision making in the earlier day one and two of the war. There was no appreciation of a surprise in the initial strike missions---there was no sense of ownership of the nations defences by paf ACM when the PIA fokker pilot reported some gun boats being towed behind an indian navy ship headed for karachi port---there was no sense of ownership by the karachi af base commander when the navy atlantique took a flight mission bordering india right after kargil.

PAF has a serious serious problem of not holding accountable the officer incharge for its horrifyingly bad deeds---and lack of ownership.

Would the base commander in karachi would have been let to live---he was the base commander in any base in russia---iran---iraq---egypt---turkey---BD or any other neighbouring country---would been summarily tried and executed for the dereliction of duties---how about the famous word of air marshall Rahim about the missile boat scenario in karachi in 1971---any paf with any bit of national pride and any bit of national honour and courage would have found a way to execute that man for high treason against the state, if the state would not have done any thing.

The paf history is filled up with cases of high treason at some very decisive moments that could have changed the outcome in a more positive manner----but only for the pak public's blind following, nobody wants to ask them anything---actually most of the pakistanis didnot even have the understanding of what had happend to them. That is a sad story. When our very loved ones---the people that we looked upto and cherish and honour and praise and respect and worship like gods, they lie to us through their teeth at how good they are, when they know that they not even close to it---when they say that they had done their job well, when in actuality, they hadnot----it is a shame to be deceived by the one that we kowtowed to for the last 45 years.

For that treason---they need someone to take charge and keep an eye on what they are doing.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

Mastan Khan: Can you shed some light under Gen. Kiyani rule? ACM is seen many times with Kiyani...

Does it mean a change in the thinking of the leadership?


Regards

 

[Quwa]

With regards to used Mirage 2000-9s and F-16C/Ds. These are mature and potent aircraft, and should good deals come up, PAF will pursue them without hesitation. However, funds are limited...and a lackluster economy, feudal elite's monopoly over agriculture and its prohibition over universal education, health care, etc...as well as the elitist monopolies over business, consumer products, etc, and no system of land and wealth-tax collection, etc, will continue to keep Pakistan behind. The civilian elite is very much to blame for most of our problems.

As for the JF-17, I disagree with the notion that it is an "average 2.5 gen" fighter, it is a lightweight 4th generation fighter. Sure, there is a lot to blame on the Pakistani propaganda mill, there is no doubt about that, but to pit it to the level of F-7PG is wrong. In addition to the use of a modern turbofan engine, the JF-17's airframe also makes use of limited composites; surpasses the the F-7s in range and payload; and boasts much greater upgrade potential. Even in context of the airframe, there is still room to make improvements with regards to an even better powerplant, greater use of composites, enhance range and increase payload. In terms of electronics, radar and ECM/EW, the JF-17 hardly lacks, it uses the same contemporary systems as any other 4th and 4+ gen fighter - although not to the same standard of quality and performance. Nonetheless, it has earned a position within that generation.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Thanks mark.But i have a question reguarding euro tiger what happened about that deal with france to purchase 18 of them is it dead or delayed or what ??

 

[Adios Amigo]

With regards to used Mirage 2000-9s and F-16C/Ds. These are mature and potent aircraft, and should good deals come up, PAF will pursue them without hesitation. However, funds are limited...and a lackluster economy, feudal elite's monopoly over agriculture and its prohibition over universal education, health care, etc...as well as the elitist monopolies over business, consumer products, etc, and no system of land and wealth-tax collection, etc, will continue to keep Pakistan behind. The civilian elite is very much to blame for most of our problems.

As for the JF-17, I disagree with the notion that it is an "average 2.5 gen" fighter, it is a lightweight 4th generation fighter. Sure, there is a lot to blame on the Pakistani propaganda mill, there is no doubt about that, but to pit it to the level of F-7PG is wrong. In addition to the use of a modern turbofan engine, the JF-17's airframe also makes use of limited composites; surpasses the the F-7s in range and payload; and boasts much greater upgrade potential. Even in context of the airframe, there is still room to make improvements with regards to an even better powerplant, greater use of composites, enhance range and increase payload. In terms of electronics, radar and ECM/EW, the JF-17 hardly lacks, it uses the same contemporary systems as any other 4th and 4+ gen fighter - although not to the same standard of quality and performance. Nonetheless, it has earned a position within that generation.

Mark, i completely agree with you. I think MK is a bit over critical regarding JF-17.











regards

 

[Quwa]

Thanks mark.But i have a question reguarding euro tiger what happened about that deal with france to purchase 18 of them is it dead or delayed or what ??

I don't think there was an actual deal, but the PA did consider Tiger for its next-gen attack helicopter requirement in 2006. With the recent news about PA seeking AH-1Z via FMF and showing interest in the Turkish-Italian T-129, I'm guessing the Tiger-business is more or less dead. Not a loss though. Pakistan may think its better off strengthening its ties with Turkey and Italy, hence pursue T-129 once it's available after 2014 (once testing is complete). In addition, it may also push for AH-1Z through FMF once it too becomes available for export after 2015.

 

[Quwa]

Mark, i completely agree with you. I think MK is a bit over critical regarding JF-17.

regards

It is a good mainstay fighter, especially for its projected cost. We need to set things in perspective, and not over blow the key details. JF-17 is a contemporary 4th generation fighter that can house the same sort of systems its counterparts have, may it be in terms of ECM/EW, radar, avionics or even weapon-systems. Furthermore, it will be supported with a propery data-transfer and communication network, as well as reasonably good maintenance support base in the PAF. In service, it will see through its optimal upgrades, i.e. AESA radar, HMD/S, IRST, IFR, higher-thrust (perhaps w/TVC), next-gen BVR AAM, 5th-gen WVRAAM, precision-strike, strategic strike, etc.

To have a fleet of 200-250+ fighters capable of all of the above is not a joke...yes, maybe not all of them will be equipped to that level, but the basics will certainly be there, and will be strong. No matter what, air-to-air capacities will not be compromised.

Yes, it is not cutting-edge and amazing, but it is meant to build numbers, sustain losses and take-up the bulk of all missions and abuse (i.e. build our pilots' flight hours). The above capabilities I listed will not be available to the bulk of 3rd world air forces, the PAF will be one of the very few to adopt the optimal JF-17 as a mainstay backbone fighter. In the end, all PAF pilots will be able to operate the modern weapon-systems, incorporate network-centric tactics, sharpen their spatial awareness on a highly automated and demanding system, etc, and do it for a lot of hours...perhaps even the 180+ hours a year NATO requires.

So put it into perspective, NATO, whose experience is namely against countries like Iraq, Serbia, Sudan, etc, is going to have a walk in the park with a force like PAF? An air force where the average pilot trains 100+ hours a year with BVR, data-link, 5th-gen WVR, precision-strike, etc? Where all of these capabilities are available to practically every single fighter in the PAF's inventory, an inventory that itself stretches into 300+ aircraft?

I'm actually disappointed with how the PN was unable to at least initiate a medium-displacement frigate as well as multi-mission SSK for mainstay usage. Although to its credit, it may capture the opportunity with the Turkish TF-100 FFG, as well as cooperate with China and Turkey on a new SSK platform for the future.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

People are so interesting---they just want to protect something just for the sake of it----paf got to whwere it did in 65, 71 and through the 80 because it either had equally good fighter aircraft as their opponents or they had the sidewinder missile in 71 war I believe---. In quality of weapons wise, paf may have lacked in numbers, but the sabre F 86 was equally superior or compatible to the gnat and other fighters that iaf had---in 71 war the paf had better american air to air missiles than the indians.

That was the sole reason that paf was superior to the indians---those missiles made the ultimate difference---now---neither we have the aircraft superiority, nor do we have superior weapons system, like a better air to air missile, nor do they have a better combat radar in the air craft---tell me reader, please---who is living in ETHER. I am talking about feet on the ground and planes in the air today---not what we are going to get when we get them and except for the 18 blk 52's, there will be no magic bullets flying in the air.

Who has claimed the JF 17 as a decent 4th gen fighter---no one except for us---how about the weapons system---just about average for what is in the market.

I want you pakistanis to think a little bit---put a little efforts and put some strain on the gray matter----indian has been strangulating us for the last 7 years---slowly but surely in the initial years and tightening the noose a lot in the last two years---war may happen at any moment---just waiting for the lightening to strike the dry tinder and all will go up in flash---so what would you go to war with.

I am not over or under critical of the jf 17---ADEOS AMIGO you missed the point and just made a one liner out of all what I have posted in many pages---jf 17 in itself is nothing---a nobody---but in contest with something else---in relation to something else---it becomes something. The discussion is about the m2k9----and JF 17 won't even be a match to it for surely even in the second mlu and possibly the third mlu as well---.

This goes to show that a person only wants to look at what the mind allows it to---it gets prejudiced when something goes against the grain.

 

[Quwa]

Hi,

People are so interesting---they just want to protect something just for the sake of it----paf got to whwere it did in 65, 71 and through the 80 because it either had equally good fighter aircraft as their opponents or they had the sidewinder missile in 71 war I believe---. In quality of weapons wise, paf may have lacked in numbers, but the sabre F 86 was equally superior or compatible to the gnat and other fighters that iaf had---in 71 war the paf had better american air to air missiles than the indians.

That was the sole reason that paf was superior to the indians---those missiles made the ultimate difference---now---neither we have the aircraft superiority, nor do we have superior weapons system, like a better air to air missile, nor do they have a better combat radar in the air craft---tell me reader, please---who is living in ETHER. I am talking about feet on the ground and planes in the air today---not what we are going to get when we get them and except for the 18 blk 52's, there will be no magic bullets flying in the air.

Who has claimed the JF 17 as a decent 4th gen fighter---no one except for us---how about the weapons system---just about average for what is in the market.

I want you pakistanis to think a little bit---put a little efforts and put some strain on the gray matter----indian has been strangulating us for the last 7 years---slowly but surely in the initial years and tightening the noose a lot in the last two years---war may happen at any moment---just waiting for the lightening to strike the dry tinder and all will go up in flash---so what would you go to war with.

I am not over or under critical of the jf 17---ADEOS AMIGO you missed the point and just made a one liner out of all what I have posted in many pages---jf 17 in itself is nothing---a nobody---but in contest with something else---in relation to something else---it becomes something. The discussion is about the m2k9----and JF 17 won't even be a match to it for surely even in the second mlu and possibly the third mlu as well---.

This goes to show that a person only wants to look at what the mind allows it to---it gets prejudiced when something goes against the grain.

Before you start claiming that X "isn't a match for" Y, I would like to see specific performance parameters of both JF-17 and M2K-9 with regards to their ECM/EW, radar, etc. I am not claiming JF-17 is better than M2K-9, but to say that the former is 'nothing' is a statement that requires credence of a very detailed technical comparison. So tell me, did you sit down and closely analyze the JF-17's ECM/EW suite, radar, performance parameters, etc, against the M2K-9? Did they have a joint exercise where the M2K-9 completely wiped the floor? To say that even the upgraded JF-17 won't be anything to M2K-9 is baffling when the commercial market will only sell sub-systems that are superior to what the M2K-9 uses today?

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

The M2k9 upgrade is in direct competition with the blk 52---keeping that perspective in mind---the physical stature of the jf 17---the current and future engines available---the weapons and weapons load---it is already agreed upon that the jf 17 is no match with the blk 52---it is barley in league with the 1970 F 16---and that only the time will tell. Even the 2nd upgrade would not get it anywhere close to the BLK 52---so presumably it won't get in league with the m2k9---but even if it does after 5 years, that won't help us fight the war that is going to start tomorrow.

Even the FC 20's that we would be getting in 2015 would be straining real real hard to compete with these m2k9's---jf 17 is not even in that category to compete at all.

The issue over here in this discussion is that what if the m2k9 is available today---what then---that is where the discussion started---our issue is a now issue----what do we show up to fight with, if the war is declared tomorrow.

Please gentlemen---let us keep this argument / discussion within those parameters keeping in view the past experiences of the paf, what it had, how it fought the war and what does it have today and why----the planes that are going through weapons evaluation and integration at this point should not even qualify.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Before you start claiming that X "isn't a match for" Y, I would like to see specific performance parameters of both JF-17 and M2K-9 with regards to their ECM/EW, radar, etc. I am not claiming JF-17 is better than M2K-9, but to say that the former is 'nothing' is a statement that requires credence of a very detailed technical comparison. So tell me, did you sit down and closely analyze the JF-17's ECM/EW suite, radar, performance parameters, etc, against the M2K-9? Did they have a joint exercise where the M2K-9 completely wiped the floor? To say that even the upgraded JF-17 won't be anything to M2K-9 is baffling when the commercial market will only sell sub-systems that are superior to what the M2K-9 uses today?

JF-17 was a good project, if it would have been completed on time by 2000 (the delay costed 0.5 of a generation difference ).

First Super7 project got delayed as US left it as a partner , then money problems, 60 F-16 order failure and Earth quick made the project late.

Just Imagine If JF-17 would haven been inducted in 2002 by now PAF would have made them more mature.

PAF mistake was to put JF-17 project on and off and wasted time as technology is changing very fast. In place of F-7pg , JF-17 should have been inducted ten years ago(if project was on time).

 

[ice_man]

Our military tradition has always been setup in such a method that first rights go the the elder brother in the khaki (army)followed by the brothers in blue(airforce) & finally whatever is left on the plate goes to the youngest in white(Navy)!

for too long PAF has buried its head in the sand & prayed that all problems would disappear. Currently PAF is left a decade atleast behind compared to its rival! we are happy that SOON we will receive some BVRs making us finally step into the 21st century! we are also HOPEFUL that by the end of 2020 the JF-17 would be at par with the F-16s BLK 60s(yes i know some people on this forum think that jf's are already at par with blk 52s)!

However, by the end of this decade the enemy would be heading towards the PAKFA! inorder to not remain a decade behind the enemy it is absolutely essential that we induct the M2K now to atleast close the gap rapidly!

why does PAF always feel it is secure with barely a pass why doesn't it ever aim to ACE the competition! inducting the M2K will make us close the gap rapidly! i hope logic prevails & people's egos don't come in the way!

sometimes it really needs ba**s to admit a mistakes...i hope PAF does!

 

[SBD-3]

With regards to used Mirage 2000-9s and F-16C/Ds. These are mature and potent aircraft, and should good deals come up, PAF will pursue them without hesitation. However, funds are limited...and a lackluster economy, feudal elite's monopoly over agriculture and its prohibition over universal education, health care, etc...as well as the elitist monopolies over business, consumer products, etc, and no system of land and wealth-tax collection, etc, will continue to keep Pakistan behind. The civilian elite is very much to blame for most of our problems.

As for the JF-17, I disagree with the notion that it is an "average 2.5 gen" fighter, it is a lightweight 4th generation fighter. Sure, there is a lot to blame on the Pakistani propaganda mill, there is no doubt about that, but to pit it to the level of F-7PG is wrong. In addition to the use of a modern turbofan engine, the JF-17's airframe also makes use of limited composites; surpasses the the F-7s in range and payload; and boasts much greater upgrade potential. Even in context of the airframe, there is still room to make improvements with regards to an even better powerplant, greater use of composites, enhance range and increase payload. In terms of electronics, radar and ECM/EW, the JF-17 hardly lacks, it uses the same contemporary systems as any other 4th and 4+ gen fighter - although not to the same standard of quality and performance. Nonetheless, it has earned a position within that generation.

i agree that they are mature programs........but we must see that nearly all modern AFs around the world are concentrating on a specialized and concentrated air inventory.Here are some examples
1) USAF- F-22/F-15/F-16 (only 3 types)-----------> future F-22+F-35 only
2) IDAF F-16/F-15------------->future F-15/F-35
3) TuAF F-16/F-4/F-5-----------> Future F-16/F-35
4) Luftwaffe EF/Tornado/F-4-----------> Future EF
looking at the future of almost all the air forces.....They are developing into focused and concentrated forces......So i think with F-16 FC-20 and JF-17.....we don't need a third platform unless we decide to retire one of these

 

[TaimiKhan]

JF-17 is a crap compared to M2K-9 & F-16s, those who wish to hear that, smile now and be happy.

JF-17 is such a crap, that PAF transferred its best pilots, piloting the super duper F-16s to fly a crap like JF-17s.

JF-17 is such a crap that the best pilots having flown F-16s aren't willing to go back to F-16s from the JF-17s.

JF-17 is such a crap, that its HOTAS & HUD systems are much pilot friendlier compared to the current F-16s we have.

And sooooooooooooooooooooo many other crappy things about JF-17 to mention.

M2K and F-16s are the best.