UAE Mirage to PAF and SH to IAF Extract

[MaXimMaRz]

This is in responce to Mastan Khan's Doubts about 65 war

Analysis of 1965 Air ops

Being three times smaller than IAF, whatever PAF achieved was certainly exceptional. On analyses we find that following 04 factors were the major aspects resulting in the difference of performance between the two air forces.

1. Offensive Strategy. PAF’s offensive oriented strategy enabled it to achieve the desired degree of control of air just in two days of the war. It wrested the initiative and maintained the psychological edge through out. IAF offensive action was restricted only to the places where it was not challenged in the skies. IAF actions appeared reactive and despite being numerically superior, did not give any impression of following an offensive philosophy. IAF failed to pre-empt, a decision criticized by their own analysis till today. Why they failed to do so, is a question that still preoccupies them and we can find internet flooded with reasons for this but none is convincing. They project the idea that it was a deliberate policy adopted by their superiors. If it was so,
then they were at fault, because they missed the opportunity of their life time of achieving glories. This is where leadership counts.

2. Leadership. “He was a formidable fellow, and I was glad that he was a Pakistani and not Egyptian”, wrote the Israeli C-in-C. Nur Khan was a bold person having lot of initiative. Leading from the front he provided a bold and offensive strategy to the PAF which he thought was the only recipe for a small but potent air force against a numerically superior enemy. This helped PAF gain the superiority in the air. On the other hand, despite numerical superiority, IAF leadership lacked this cohesiveness of purpose and theiraction portrayed uncertain mind set.

3. PAF morale, motivation and the spirit to fight and sacrifice was at its peak. Daytime Recce of airfields by F-104, time spent over target despite presence of AAA, launching of SSG personnel into certain death mission, initiative by C-130 personnel and carrying 1000 Lbs on F-86s and similar other instances speak volumes of high state of morale of the PAF personnel. Though it is not right to assume that enemy had any less of this actor, however, similar zeal and enthusiasm was not so prominent on the other side. Many a time IAF pilots were seen dispensing weapons short of the target or making one hurried pass. Most likely, couple of incidents such as shooting down of four vampires on 01st Sept before commencement of proper war and high attrition encountered by IAF during the opening round had resulted into cautious employment of IAF by its political and military leaders.

This is post is only in connection to to a previous post, i hope no one starts trolling over this..

 

[MaXimMaRz]

Kill ratio of 1965 war up next

 

[iioal malik]

Agree with mastan khan..... More then 8 Billion dollars aid was given to pakistan after 911 during musharraf government not single aircarft is bought today after 10 years paf still useing 3 decades old machines without any upgards to it's f16 which is surly a worries but u can't only put fingers on civilian governets for that sake...corruption every where in pakistan army navey airforce whether it's man with unifrom or without the uniform Mr.Musharaff who use to say sab say pelay pakistan seating at his 7star condo in london the Common Man's perspective can't even afford it to live there.hopeing against the hope pakistan will make some good decisions in near future for paf n it's ppl

 

[Quwa]

Hi,

The M2k9 upgrade is in direct competition with the blk 52---keeping that perspective in mind---the physical stature of the jf 17---the current and future engines available---the weapons and weapons load---it is already agreed upon that the jf 17 is no match with the blk 52---it is barley in league with the 1970 F 16---and that only the time will tell. Even the 2nd upgrade would not get it anywhere close to the BLK 52---so presumably it won't get in league with the m2k9---but even if it does after 5 years, that won't help us fight the war that is going to start tomorrow.

Even the FC 20's that we would be getting in 2015 would be straining real real hard to compete with these m2k9's---jf 17 is not even in that category to compete at all.

The issue over here in this discussion is that what if the m2k9 is available today---what then---that is where the discussion started---our issue is a now issue----what do we show up to fight with, if the war is declared tomorrow.

Please gentlemen---let us keep this argument / discussion within those parameters keeping in view the past experiences of the paf, what it had, how it fought the war and what does it have today and why----the planes that are going through weapons evaluation and integration at this point should not even qualify.

You're not giving us any specific measuring points.

Sure, JF-17's range and payload isn't as good as M2K-9 and Block-52+, that will affect its strike capabilities, but what about A2A? It has a similar number of usable weapon-stations, can utilize the same standard of ECM/EW, same standard of radar and weapon-systems...all of these things are on the commercial market. Sure, price and size will limit the actual performance of the JF-17, but this does not make the JF-17 a hopeless hen. Quality of fighters is one aspect, but effectiveness is quite another matter, and in the latter aspect, JF-17 can hold its own against M2K-9 and Blk-52.

As for FC-20 and M2K-9, this is even more baffling. How can FC-20 have a tough time competing when all of its interior subsystems are drawn from technology used in 4.5 and 5th gen fighters?

 

[MaXimMaRz]

Lets not predetermine the IQ of a Baby that is still an infant.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

Agree with mastan khan..... More then 8 Billion dollars aid was given to pakistan after 911 during musharraf government not single aircarft is bought today after 10 years paf still useing 3 decades old machines without any upgards to it's f16 which is surly a worries but u can't only put fingers on civilian governets for that sake...corruption every where in pakistan army navey airforce whether it's man with unifrom or without the uniform Mr.Musharaff who use to say sab say pelay pakistan seating at his 7star condo in london the Common Man's perspective can't even afford it to live there.hopeing against the hope pakistan will make some good decisions in near future for paf n it's ppl

You mean if the money is with government, and no one is interested to sell you Aircraft, its PAF fault...right on my friend...you leave no room for discussion

 

[Super Falcon]

friends let the JF 17 talk on its thread we are discussing uae mirages kindly back on topic

 

[iioal malik]

You mean if the money is with government, and no one is interested to sell you Aircraft, its PAF fault...right on my friend...you leave no room for discussion

It's not necessary for u to agree with me but not digesting the truth is another thing that we lack.Hiding our self n a cage of dreamworld should be over. your guess is good as mine paf have never went on record to say if some country is not interested to sell Aircrafts to pakistan....

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

First of all the specifics of the m2k9's are posted onthe irst or second page of this thread---.

Secondly the question about the price----that was also discussed in the first and second page clearly----what is the price of parity---15--20--30 mil----whatever. What does the price has to do with parity with the enemy.

What are you gonna do---at time of war---sit on your haunches and say no I am not going to pay 1000 dollars for a 155 mm howitzer shell---because in peace time it was 500 dollars.

This is a time of war---just because two armies are not guins blazing at each other does not mean such.

Some want specs from me---some want price from me---some are emotionally attached to what don't have---.

PAF was never deceived by the u s over the F 16's regarding the sanctions----everyone knew that the sanctions were coming---in mid 80's---PAF didnot want to believe that it won't happen---I have talked aboput it a thousand times over here to what transpired and still members come up with this sanction issue.

Let me start again----Pressler and Solariz would put forward to put sanctions on pakistan right around the mid 80's----Reagan---who had the political clout would veto it down---it is known that he would ask his advisors if they knew that pak has something that has written on the side atom bomb---when they replied no---reagan would veto it. It is a long story, but itn the end it is the PAF who is to blame for the fiasco----because in the end if it happens on your watch, guess what---you get the blame.

Just because PAF has put its top pilots into a project doesnot mean that they are right---you know why---precedence---in past all the projects have been a failure---going back 25---30 years---a continuous streak of failures.

PAF cannot put the blame on anyone else except for themselves---this grave that they have fallen into, was dug by their own hands.

When I talk about the army---I am not comparing the building of a tank to the building of an aircraft---but rather the procurement of the right weapons system.

I agree with the poster about what paf did in 1965----but that performance was not a 110% of the capability that the PAF had---that astounding result was closer to 60--70 % of their abilitity in the first wo days of the war.

They seriously missed out on the strike missions right in the begining of hostilities by being late---thus the missions were failures---from a great performance---it would have become an extraordinary performance---the suggestions of strike missions over agra / dehli air force bases by F 104 was not even entertained seriously by the base commander at sargodha---something that would have wreaked havoc in the psyche of the opponent at that time.

Then the fiasco of the missile boat attack on karachi harbour---not acting in time was high treason---PAF heiracrhy intentionally let the strike progress by not acting and leaving the navy on its own---the statements of ACM Rahim " it happen old boy ' was disgusting if he ever said that---it is more disgusting that none of the air force warriors had any courage to execute that man---some body could have pulled a gun on him blown his brains out.

Letting the atlantique fly on its own after kargil was another act of high treason---you see the PAF wants to claim victory when it wants to---but the baggage of failures that it carries along come to show as well.

The issue over here as it started, was the availability of the m2k9's to pak now---in comparison to what Pak has today. Most of the young posters have no concept about what kind of threats that we face today and what do we have to do to overcome those threats in a timely fashion.

Today's paf is at 50 % parity with the iaf---which means---lambs are out to be slaughtered by hte wolves----not one aircraft in paks inventory that can go against iaf one on one---not a single aircraft.

Pakistanis only understand when their house is on fire and when their own relatives and their own children and dear ones are being killed, that is when my brethren open their eyes.

Right now all the aircraft in our inventory are comparable to a shotgun that is in the house to protect against the invaders---shotgun meaning that its weapons have a very short kill range---now personally I have seen people pay exorbitant sums of money many years ago to put their hands on a used AK 47 in interior sindh and punjab and that at a time when AK's were very few---did anyone of you ask your DAD or your uncle or your grandfather---sir why are you paying so much for this measely weapon---the answer would be to perotect you and the rest of the family. Cost was never an issue to the head of the house hold---your life and welbeing was.

When someone bought their brother in uniform a semi automatic pistol for his protection---was cost ever a factor in the mind of the father and his brothers---I doubt it very much--it was the love of the family to find every which way to protect their son now---give him something to strike back now---keeping that in mind---that is how pakistanis should look at pakistan.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

It's not necessary for u to agree with me but not digesting the truth is another thing that we lack.Hiding our self n a cage of dreamworld should be over. your guess is good as mine paf have never went on record to say if some country is not interested to sell Aircrafts to pakistan....

as i said earlier, there isn't anything left to discuss. You really seem to know so much about PAF that i dont stand a chance to prove my point...

 

[pak-yes]

It's a shame that our Brethren just don't accept the shortsightedness and somewhat incompetency of the higher command of PAF.PAF just seem to think that they can shoot down whatever Aircraft with their JF-17.

Deals like this mirage deal are extremely rare chances and by leaving this deal inspite of every favorable aspect(including Money)PAF is going to lose a lot.

ALLAH save Pakistani skies.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

Hi,

First of all the specifics of the m2k9's are posted onthe irst or second page of this thread---.

Secondly the question about the price----that was also discussed in the first and second page clearly----what is the price of parity---15--20--30 mil----whatever. What does the price has to do with parity with the enemy.

What are you gonna do---at time of war---sit on your haunches and say no I am not going to pay 1000 dollars for a 155 mm howitzer shell---because in peace time it was 500 dollars.

This is a time of war---just because two armies are not guins blazing at each other does not mean such.

Some want specs from me---some want price from me---some are emotionally attached to what don't have---.

PAF was never deceived by the u s over the F 16's regarding the sanctions----everyone knew that the sanctions were coming---in mid 80's---PAF didnot want to believe that it won't happen---I have talked aboput it a thousand times over here to what transpired and still members come up with this sanction issue.

Let me start again----Pressler and Solariz would put forward to put sanctions on pakistan right around the mid 80's----Reagan---who had the political clout would veto it down---it is known that he would ask his advisors if they knew that pak has something that has written on the side atom bomb---when they replied no---reagan would veto it. It is a long story, but itn the end it is the PAF who is to blame for the fiasco----because in the end if it happens on your watch, guess what---you get the blame.

Just because PAF has put its top pilots into a project doesnot mean that they are right---you know why---precedence---in past all the projects have been a failure---going back 25---30 years---a continuous streak of failures.

PAF cannot put the blame on anyone else except for themselves---this grave that they have fallen into, was dug by their own hands.

When I talk about the army---I am not comparing the building of a tank to the building of an aircraft---but rather the procurement of the right weapons system.

I agree with the poster about what paf did in 1965----but that performance was not a 110% of the capability that the PAF had---that astounding result was closer to 60--70 % of their abilitity in the first wo days of the war.

They seriously missed out on the strike missions right in the begining of hostilities by being late---thus the missions were failures---from a great performance---it would have become an extraordinary performance---the suggestions of strike missions over agra / dehli air force bases by F 104 was not even entertained seriously by the base commander at sargodha---something that would have wreaked havoc in the psyche of the opponent at that time.

Then the fiasco of the missile boat attack on karachi harbour---not acting in time was high treason---PAF heiracrhy intentionally let the strike progress by not acting and leaving the navy on its own---the statements of ACM Rahim " it happen old boy ' was disgusting if he ever said that---it is more disgusting that none of the air force warriors had any courage to execute that man---some body could have pulled a gun on him blown his brains out.

Letting the atlantique fly on its own after kargil was another act of high treason---you see the PAF wants to claim victory when it wants to---but the baggage of failures that it carries along come to show as well.

The issue over here as it started, was the availability of the m2k9's to pak now---in comparison to what Pak has today. Most of the young posters have no concept about what kind of threats that we face today and what do we have to do to overcome those threats in a timely fashion.

Today's paf is at 50 % parity with the iaf---which means---lambs are out to be slaughtered by hte wolves----not one aircraft in paks inventory that can go against iaf one on one---not a single aircraft.

Pakistanis only understand when their house is on fire and when their own relatives and their own children and dear ones are being killed, that is when my brethren open their eyes.

Right now all the aircraft in our inventory are comparable to a shotgun that is in the house to protect against the invaders---shotgun meaning that its weapons have a very short kill range---now personally I have seen people pay exorbitant sums of money many years ago to put their hands on a used AK 47 in interior sindh and punjab and that at a time when AK's were very few---did anyone of you ask your DAD or your uncle or your grandfather---sir why are you paying so much for this measely weapon---the answer would be to perotect you and the rest of the family. Cost was never an issue to the head of the house hold---your life and welbeing was.

When someone bought their brother in uniform a semi automatic pistol for his protection---was cost ever a factor in the mind of the father and his brothers---I doubt it very much--it was the love of the family to find every which way to protect their son now---give him something to strike back now---keeping that in mind---that is how pakistanis should look at pakistan.

1965 WAR (1 SEP – 23 SEP)
COMBAT- RELATED AIRCRAFT LOSSES
PAF IAF
7 Air Combat 17
3 Enemy AAA 9
2 Own AAA -
1 Destroyed on Ground 39
3 Accidents – Combat Related 1
16 OVERALL ATTRITION 66
2,279 TOTAL COMBAT SORTIES 3,937
0.7% ATTRITION RATE 1.67%
​

If this isnt a 110% for you then what is it ? just look at the sortie generation rate !
Do you know that the USAF failed in Afghanistan....Imagine more then 200 sorties per day against only minor ground targets ...with the best weapon and yet they failed.....try to compare it the 65 results.
The PN Atlantic case again ! Every one here please remember that if the navy is having aircraft and pilots then they dont require baby sitters !!! no one is going to bring you home from across the border till the time you are serious about being a pro.....ask them now They follow the SOPs and are doing very good.
Money was never an issue , then why didn't PAF get those Grippens (they had the money in their pocket) sweden didnt gave it to us, Why?
right now we dont have matching numbers and quality like IAF...but do you know that the Indian Navy has more Budget then our combined defense budget. how about comparing the budget first...cuz you said money isn't an issue...right?
the real threat today isnt India, Its ERF (Extra regional forces) who have gathered around us and they have bought our government. The whole Gulf dosnt want Gawadar port to be established, and leading them all is Iran !!! the Iranians are trying their best to keep chaos in the balochistan.

You criticize PAF performance but you dont see that there isnt any better result form other forces
you like to count and compare Own aircraft with the Indians but you dont compare the budgets. Yet you say money isnt an Issue !!!
Since you said that young posters dont know the real threat...i would like to ask you tell us What is the real threat ?

 

[Kinshuk]

Is j 17 BVR capable in future? And will it be so in the first batch itself? Or in the second or the third upgrade. If it gets BVR capability before 2015 it is going to be a good one.

But I am not aware if J 17 is for point defence or I mean for deep enemy territory strike or to counter the enemy aircraft in Pak aerospace?

Thanks in advance.

 

[notorious_eagle]

It's a shame that our Brethren just don't accept the shortsightedness and somewhat incompetency of the higher command of PAF.PAF just seem to think that they can shoot down whatever Aircraft with their JF-17.

Deals like this mirage deal are extremely rare chances and by leaving this deal inspite of every favorable aspect(including Money)PAF is going to lose a lot.

ALLAH save Pakistani skies.

Instead of posting this bull sh** like a fanboy, why dont you go over the specs that JF17 lacks that M2K-9 has. PAF is run by professionals who have done their homework, before a platform is purchased dozens of technical and feasability studies are done. If PAF is going for JF17 over the M2K's, there is a good reason for that.

You still have not proved how is JF17 a sitting duck infront of the M2K-9, maybe you are forgetting that our JF17's will be backed by force multipliers which will neutralize many advantages that M2K-9 has. Even besides that the JF17 is a very agile and manuverable plane with excellent avionics, radar and EW capabilities. The only weakness that JF17 has is its engine, but PAF is working to solve this issue.

Gone are those days when aircrafts used to engage each other one on one, your forgetting that Electronic Warfare is the name of the game today. The argument your putting forward is the same Indian fanboys put forward; that MKI has Western avionics, Israeli radar blah blah blah blah that is why its undefeatable.

 

[MaXimMaRz]

Is j 17 BVR capable in future? And will it be so in the first batch itself? Or in the second or the third upgrade. If it gets BVR capability before 2015 it is going to be a good one.

But I am not aware if J 17 is for point defence or I mean for deep enemy territory strike or to counter the enemy aircraft in Pak aerospace?

Thanks in advance.

it will be capable of carrying both SD-10 and AMRAAM