Twitter Q&A on JF-17 Thunder Program with Horus & Oscar

[YeBeWarned]

The design is finalized, but the issue is allocated resources between current technologies and emerging ones.
Sort of like a new pc,the pace of development has the PAF thinking "Is this all I want or are these systems the one I want on it"- It isnt the best approach as it can lead to standardization issues.

There is a need for a HMS which is being sorted out, but the radar, ECM and other avionics are sorted out.

if the design is finalized now than it means there is some twitching in the existing designs ( B1 & B2 ) ?
second , additional ECM, and avionics means some internal fitted Pods ? and have RD-93 has enough Supply to power the AESA and new Avionics ?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Thanks. Just for clarification: are you saying they are working on a HMS?

Just a guess, but they're looking for one from plausibly available sources, e.g. Britain, France or South Africa.

It will be interesting to see if the PAF ultimately funds or co-funds an original design. Hensoldt Optronics South Africa (HOSA), which was formerly Airbus DS Optronics (which was Denel Optronics and then Cassidian), is eager to make a comeback in the optronics space. It'd be strange if a fighter HMD/S isn't in the pipeline.

 

[SQ8]

Thanks. Just for clarification: are you saying they are working on a HMS?

Working with possible vendors, some from otherwise untested(but available) sources.

 

[khanasifm]

Where can one get this report ?? Technological development in Pakistan.
http://nation.com.pk/national/31-Au...l-defense-industry-itu-study-on-jf-17-thunder

 

[MastanKhan]

The design is finalized, but the issue is allocated resources between current technologies and emerging ones.
Sort of like a new pc,the pace of development has the PAF thinking "Is this all I want or are these systems the one I want on it"- It isnt the best approach as it can lead to standardization issues.

There is a need for a HMS which is being sorted out, but the radar, ECM and other avionics are sorted out.

Hi,

It reminds me of the early 90's. The PC are changing in function & capability really fast---people are holding for the next and the next model---till the realization hits---if you don't jump on the band wagon---you will get behind---.

 

[CriticalThought]

Where can one get this report ?? Technological development in Pakistan.
http://nation.com.pk/national/31-Au...l-defense-industry-itu-study-on-jf-17-thunder

LOLS. No mention of the report on their homepages

https://itu.edu.pk/faculty-itu/dr-bashir-ahmad-khan/

https://itu.edu.pk/faculty-itu/dr-umar-saif/

Maybe write to them ask for it? Do share with us as well.

 

[Cookie Monster]

In terms of countering Rafale's EW suite, the RCS reduction due to properly designed diamond nose would help a lot. Of course, diamond node itself is nothing if other design changes aren't made as well. So let's say a stealthy design to counter Rafale.

Just a diamond nose to reduce RCS? And that too to counter EW capabilities of the enemy jet?

Yes diamond nose would reduce RCS but JF17 was never designed with stealth in mind. Either the whole airframe needs to be redesigned(which would essentially be a whole new project/jet) or not bother with a hodgepodge of frame changes for stealth purposes.

Also if somehow JF17 is made stealthy that doesn't counter EW capabilities of the enemy jet. Electronic warfare is done by jamming the radar of the enemy jet or radio communication system or targeting systems of the incoming missiles(any combination or all of these). By having AESA radar in block III the enemy would have a tough time jamming it bcuz of multiple TR modules that can change frequency. I assume this would be one part of a multi pronged approach to tackle the advanced EW capabilities of Rafales. Another possibility can be to add an IRST pod so that JF17 can detect/track/target enemy jet without having to turn its radar on.

I don't think adding a diamond nose has enough benefits to justify the cost. Stealth helps in enemy not being able to detect the aircraft using its radar...but it doesn't help with countering enemy EW attacks.

 

[SQ8]

Hi,

It reminds me of the early 90's. The PC are changing in function & capability really fast---people are holding for the next and the next model---till the realization hits---if you don't jump on the band wagon---you will get behind---.

Its a catch 22 situation; for e.g the F-22 was state of the art in the 90's with a Cray supercompter- but today a desktop has ten times that power and bandwidth; not to mention many more programmers available and it truly only got operational in the latter half of the last decade-

The same goes for the JF-17 except the people here not only do not have the deep pockets that LM and Boeing have access to, but face procurement and management issues as well.

Not to say that there arent vested interests, lobbies within the United States; but a screwup or a bit of corruption(monetary, nepotism or plain know-it-all-ism) has less of an impact with an already well established industrial base with $1 trillion budgets and established checks and balances compared to a third wold dump(hate me for it) with little in the way of checks and balances along with debt lining its back.

 

[Awan68]

Hi,

See---what is missing in your post and in your thinking is the POWER OF THE WEAPON---.

It tells me then---that as you do not have regard of that weapons as an opposing soldier should


Hi,

What is patheitc about many a pakistanis is that they keep quiet and then maybe utter a one liner and think they conquered the world---because that is what they have heard from their parents---grand parents etc--- ( intelligent person speaks less ).

The truth is that an IDIOT speaks less because of the fear of being known as one---.

So speak up on the subject matter---if you disagree---you are welcome---but THIS IS A DEFENSE FORUM----write a tactical reproach to my comments---to make your point---otherwise!!!!

and as usual you resort to abuses like most of you do....there were a million other factors at play which you choose to ignore while u act like a child accusing the paf of treason due to obvious personal bias, criticism is one thing and i am the harshest crtitic one can be....my parents raised me to worship only Allah hence i dont search for wordly gods to praise nor do i consider any politician or general beyond criticism yet accusing an institution of treason based on an analysis formed on personal evaluation is not a path tread lightly by those who have a balanced mind....

 

[MastanKhan]

and as usual you resort to abuses like most of you do....there were a million other factors at play which you choose to ignore while u act like a child accusing the paf of treason due to obvious personal bias, criticism is one thing and i am the harshest crtitic one can be....my parents raised me to worship only Allah hence i dont search for wordly gods to praise nor do i consider any politician or general beyond criticism yet accusing an institution of treason based on an analysis formed on personal evaluation is not a path tread lightly by those who have a balanced mind....

Sir,

Then cut thru the chase---and write something meaningful---. Let us find out what you have to say---.

From your post---seems like you don't have much to talk about.

So---26 years old and still living at home---.

 

[CriticalThought]

Just a diamond nose to reduce RCS? And that too to counter EW capabilities of the enemy jet?

Yes diamond nose would reduce RCS but JF17 was never designed with stealth in mind. Either the whole airframe needs to be redesigned(which would essentially be a whole new project/jet) or not bother with a hodgepodge of frame changes for stealth purposes.

Also if somehow JF17 is made stealthy that doesn't counter EW capabilities of the enemy jet. Electronic warfare is done by jamming the radar of the enemy jet or radio communication system or targeting systems of the incoming missiles(any combination or all of these). By having AESA radar in block III the enemy would have a tough time jamming it bcuz of multiple TR modules that can change frequency. I assume this would be one part of a multi pronged approach to tackle the advanced EW capabilities of Rafales. Another possibility can be to add an IRST pod so that JF17 can detect/track/target enemy jet without having to turn its radar on.

I don't think adding a diamond nose has enough benefits to justify the cost. Stealth helps in enemy not being able to detect the aircraft using its radar...but it doesn't help with countering enemy EW attacks.

First of all, you need to re-read my post.

Secondly, if you use microwaves to cause electronics to fry in a fighter jet, this is still EW. And proper EM shielding is one element of stealth design.

Educate yourself.

 

[Abu Zarrar]

The Information Technology University (ITU) Dean of the School of Business Management and Professor of Finance Dr Bashir Ahmed Khan has written first formal case study regarding a project of Pakistan’s Defense services, titled, “Pakistan aeronautical complex: JF-17 thunder and strategic technology transfer”.



ITU Vice Chancellor Dr Umar Saif said that the case study involving strategic technology transfer has made it a document of international interest. It has also underlined the major foreign relations shift in the South Asian region at a time when new alliances were emerging in the region in the backdrop of China Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC), he added.

Dr Saif further stated that it was also a concrete step towards academic linkages between the military-industrial complex and ITU, a University committed towards integrating technological change in economic activities in the country.

Although much of the material in the case is available in the public domain, the case also required the cooperation of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), and it benefitted from feedback, comments, and interviews of senior PAF officials as well as staff from PAC.

The case study focuses on technology transfer and its associated issues. The Thunder, jointly developed with the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAIC) in China, represents the acme of technological development in the domestic conventional defense industry, since it is a 4th generation multi-role fighter aircraft, designed to be the mainstay of the PAF.

The case study shows how the idea of technology transfer evolved from joint production to design collaboration; and how technologies were absorbed, assimilated, adopted, and adapted, to the extent that components from a number of countries(China, Russia, France, USA, UK, Brazil, and Pakistan) were successfully integrated into the airframe, weapons platform, and avionics.

Given its extensive combat use since its introduction into the PAF, the fact that it has evolved into multiple variants, and its export potential, both the PAC and the PAF regard the project as a major technological and business success story

Source: http://nation.com.pk/national/31-Au...l-defense-industry-itu-study-on-jf-17-thunder
Date: 31-08-2017

 

[nana41]

Such information is available for fighter like F-16. As countries such as Nigeria and Myanmar start buying it, it will only become more and more available. This means, any strategy based on keeping this secret is not going to work. You should have a better strategy.

I am sure PAF version of jf-17 will not exactly be same as of Nigeria, Myanmar or Azerbaijan.

 

[CriticalThought]

I am sure PAF version of jf-17 will not exactly be same as of Nigeria, Myanmar or Azerbaijan.

From what I can see in the pics for Myanmar's Thunder, there are no aerodynamic changes. We know, Pakistan has been working with Russia to make changes to RD-93. If they are done to entire batches by Russia, Myanmar would likely get those as well. So attributes such as turn rate, climb rate etc. will remain same. Remember, China has a stake in showing Thunder as a potent fighter to create further demand.

What will definitely not be available is our customized KLJ7 V2, and any other customizations to EW suit, integrated weapons (Ra'ad) etc. Also, PAF will utilize Thunder is a specific role and a certain environment. This is what sets Thunder apart for Pakistan.

 

[Cookie Monster]

First of all, you need to re-read my post.

Secondly, if you use microwaves to cause electronics to fry in a fighter jet, this is still EW. And proper EM shielding is one element of stealth design.

Educate yourself.

For the bold part...a fighter jet using microwaves to fry electronics in the enemy fighter jet? U mean an EMP attack? Last I checked the US is still trying to develop such a weapon.

Did u mean using microwaves for jamming things such as radar?


And as for u telling me to read ur post again...this is what u said

In terms of countering Rafale's EW suite, the RCS reduction due to properly designed diamond nose would help a lot. Of course, diamond node itself is nothing if other design changes aren't made as well. So let's say a stealthy design to counter Rafale.

To which I replied this

Just a diamond nose to reduce RCS? And that too to counter EW capabilities of the enemy jet?

Yes diamond nose would reduce RCS but JF17 was never designed with stealth in mind. Either the whole airframe needs to be redesigned(which would essentially be a whole new project/jet) or not bother with a hodgepodge of frame changes for stealth purposes.

Also if somehow JF17 is made stealthy that doesn't counter EW capabilities of the enemy jet. Electronic warfare is done by jamming the radar of the enemy jet or radio communication system or targeting systems of the incoming missiles(any combination or all of these). By having AESA radar in block III the enemy would have a tough time jamming it bcuz of multiple TR modules that can change frequency. I assume this would be one part of a multi pronged approach to tackle the advanced EW capabilities of Rafales. Another possibility can be to add an IRST pod so that JF17 can detect/track/target enemy jet without having to turn its radar on.

I don't think adding a diamond nose has enough benefits to justify the cost. Stealth helps in enemy not being able to detect the aircraft using its radar...but it doesn't help with countering enemy EW attacks.

Now tell me again how my post was uneducated.