Hi,
I am not over or under critical of the jf 17---ADEOS AMIGO you missed the point and just made a one liner out of all what I have posted in many pages---jf 17 in itself is nothing---a nobody---but in contest with something else---in relation to something else---it becomes something. The discussion is about the m2k9----and JF 17 won't even be a match to it for surely even in the second mlu and possibly the third mlu as well---.
This goes to show that a person only wants to look at what the mind allows it to---it gets prejudiced when something goes against the grain.
Hi Mastan Khan,
First i would like to tell you that, i didn't miss the point of your post, but rather didn't completely agree to it, and that's why the one liner popped out.
Mastan you avoided my prime question in the first place. I asked you about the price, but instead of answering that, you went down the emotional road, and tried to explain it with the cost of freedom and sovereignty. I agree to that, there is no cost of freedom. But in the real world we also face an equally important issue and that is money. You know it, that every machine has an optimal cost associated with it, beyond that, it starts loosing its worth. Same is the case with M2k. its no different.
Now i tried to inquire this from you, because there has been reports rather call them speculations that these UAE mirages(which i would love to see in our inventory) are very expensive, somewhere between 40 to 50+ million. I don't know if its true or not, but if that is really the case, then the
"cost-benefit" scenario acquire more importance then ever. Don't you think by 50 million we can get a top end brand new fighter from anywhere around the world. If not by 50 surely by 60 to 65 it will be easily available a genuine 4.5 generation Ac. And again if we are able to buy for 50 million then i am sure it wont be difficult to buy for 65. your views on that.
secondly you mentioned a lot of things related to these jets, but there are loop holes in your theory. First UAE would only release these babies when they get Rafael, not before, and when they are gonna get Rafael is something we don't know.
what about the spare issues when the mirage assembly line in reality is closed.
The only good thing for us in them would be that they are battle ready and easily absorbed by our air force, not much of a problem there.
You also talked about PAF, sleeping for a good 40 years, and kept bluffing the nation for their incompetence. Well sir I don’t represent PAF here, but certainly what you said here is not totally correct either, and I beg to disagree with that.
Tell me why did we get F-16s in first place? Just because the west was interested to safe guard our sovereignty, or, they were more interested to safe guard their own vested interests? Why the west suddenly changed its attitude after cold war and fall of Soviet Union? Why the heck Presler amendments ere put in place? Why were we squeezed more after Nuclear tests in 1998? And then why the west changed its attitude suddenly after 9/11??
PAF was not sleeping, and every thing we asked was coming like cakes in our way. If sanctions didn't hit us hard in 1991, blocking the sale of F-16s, we wouldn’t have faced the situation we are facing now. It was for the first time, that we, as a nation realized we had been dodged, so it was not PAF's fault only.
It was also extremely unfortunate that we couldn’t get Mirages in 1990s. But let see what more the world had to offer, which PAF didn’t capitalize on??? In realty beyond F-16s and Mirages, there was nothing, no Gripen, Rafael, or Eurofighter, absolutely nothing.
India went on because their ally didn’t deceive them as ours, so they were lucky to procure good Air assets from Russia.
Let me also add, that Mirages are as prone to sanctions as any other western fighter. It does not mean that if U.S is not producing them, they will be completely off troubles for us. No sir, if the American mood changes again, its influence is enough on France to sanction us as they did after the nuclear tests. So no real guarantee their also.
Apart from that, lets analyze, another aspect, and that would be Money. From where the hell would PAF brought in the extra funds to buy a non US fighter? Since our funds were blocked by US, and then later they compensated us by wheat. Money is the most important aspect, if you don’t have it, then the world don’t consider you more then a piece of crap. And we are well aware of economic conditions of Pakistan during 1990s.So why to blame only PAF for our mistakes, as a whole nation??
PAF, when got the chance and things got a bit better, made 101% correct decisions, by starting indigenous or J.V, what ever you call it fighter program. It doesn’t matter if we if agree on its capabilities. It was vital and the good thing about it is, PAF is more then happy with it. This is just absurd to say, that PAF is arrogant, and makes only bold claims about the past. At the end they are going to fight the real war with it and they do know about it. So its pointless for them to deceive themselves.
Other then that you also said, PAF shouldn’t be proud of the only air force in the world to manufacture a fighter jet. Dear it’s not their fault if you don’t have an industrial base, they are forced to take this burden, same goes for the army, and they are rightfully proud of it.
Then you said something about BVR, and SD-10 weight issue, which I totally disagree with. Sd-10 is well into production phase. It may not be as good as AMRAAMs, but not bad either. BVR is the focal point which lead to the production of thunders, and now you suddenly believe its not capable enough to ingrate and use it effectively. PAF top brass is not composed of a bunch of lunatics, who are still persistent of procuring them in huge numbers.
Another thing you said about the unproven platform, which in realty is no more a point. If it is then what about Eurofighter, Rafael, Grippen, Raptor , and the list goes on and on You need to take the first step, in order to run, some where there should be a start and we by the grace of GOD, did make a start . Its over responsibility to run along the race now.
Your predictions about the later blocks of thunder equivalent to M2k9 are totally wrong and mere speculations.
Other then that, what about their decision to acquire block 52, AWACS, Il-76 refuellers, FC 20, Falco Drones, Spada for air defense etc etc, are they really sleeping??.
What about opting out of further acquisition of block-52, that was in itself a
Very smart move, for many reasons, One you got the taste of a modern fighter, secondly you got the rest of your F-16s inventory assured of being upgraded to that level, which would have been extremely difficult, if we had not purchased a batch of block 52, lastly you got a good amount of weapons, which were needed more then anything else. So in my view PAF took full advantage of the situation.
FC 20 coming by 2015 means PAF did its ground work well before hand, and that also imply that we will be getting them before any other nation. It also negates the sanction issue related to F-16s.
The bad situation we are in today is just because of` those 20 damn years of sanctions and nothing wrong on behalf of PAF.
There is a lot to talk about, but unless we speak truthfully and not because of blind love or hate. And as I said earlier, the only good point for us in these mirages would be that they are battle ready and easily absorbed by our air force, not much of a problem there, and thus they would act only as a stop gap measure and nothing more. There should be no comparison between them and JF-17 for that matter.
There are a lot of Pros and Cons related to them, and now one should use his/her grey matter to check whether Pros exceeds to Cons or vice versa. And then make a rational decision for their procurement.
BTW Mastan Sahib , I have a great respect for you and your lovely posts, but I do have a right to agree or disagree with your views.
Sorry for making it long , and hope it has compensated for the one liner.
Adios
