Rafale jets are not enough to face Pakistani JF 17: Shahid Latif

[Akh1112]

It is something that would make interesting debate.
What if 4 su30s had scrambled instead of four Mig21s that day?

Today, they will take off as Su30 are actually stationed there.And I think PAF would certainty take hard look into account this possibility today as Su30 would be first responders to any PAF intrusion.

We dont know. TBH, we could see the same scenario for all we know, correct me if im wrong, the MIG-21Bis use the same RWR's as the MKI's? Though tbh this is a pointless debate, realistically, BVR isnt really the strong point of Russian weapons. Having MKI's there could just mean that the PAF would just re employ its EW tactics again, denying the MKI's of situational awareness, resulting in another of the same. TBH, the IAF has had its priorities wrong as many analysts had suggested. Focusing on platforms as opposed to the 'entire system' is where it failed them. Regardless of how amazing your asset is, it probably isnt as good as you think without its entire supporting network.

 

[Robin rone]

i think most of you over looking your enemy's capabilities, like a feb 27th skirmish PAf can hold the line give a hard time to IAF no doubt about it but in prolonged war is that same? because in a prolonged war iit will be war attrition and technology, in that case IAf have mix of 4 and 4.5 gen fighter to relay on and use them as cannon folder, if iaf loos 20% its aircraft inventory they can still hold the line do the offensive, same cant be in the case of PAf if 10-20% PAf asset loose and 40% IAF loos considered still IAF have upper hand due to numbers game, yes we can debate number is not factor its all about skills and tactics, but if you look back to the past you can see even PAf given very hard time to IAF they never stooped offensive bombing in Pakistan, so in my opinion what Pakistan have to do get a numbers parity in 4 th and 4.5 gen fighter with IAf then only PAf have a real advantage in any real long term war

 

[Robin rone]

We dont know. TBH, we could see the same scenario for all we know, correct me if im wrong, the MIG-21Bis use the same RWR's as the MKI's? Though tbh this is a pointless debate, realistically, BVR isnt really the strong point of Russian weapons. Having MKI's there could just mean that the PAF would just re employ its EW tactics again, denying the MKI's of situational awareness, resulting in another of the same. TBH, the IAF has had its priorities wrong as many analysts had suggested. Focusing on platforms as opposed to the 'entire system' is where it failed them. Regardless of how amazing your asset is, it probably isnt as good as you think without its entire supporting network.

the problem of Pakistan and Indian analyst they only look form their side of view never question the asymmetry in governmental briefing never discussed, until a totally independent source release the truth we dont know what happend on 27th both side have their own stories as a nutrel i dont believe both ,in my view IAF failed to prevent PAF offensive in daylight and PAf failed to do similar in 26th night, but i think PAF more adapted to modern tactics than IAF and utilized the resource to maximum extend where IAf simply over confident on their belif let the guard down, it is impossible go unnoticed 24 ship formation closing highly monitored airspace, people can say qrf was on the way in terms of spy sat India have upper hand and they never noticed larger scrambling form different airbases over the Pakistan or they blindly believed their awac will do that job, anyway in the end PAF tactics give IAF true surprise am not going to take sides on su30 kill and f16 kill becoz you all know it will be like digging my own grave

 

[Trailer23]

I became the target by the illiterate pakistanis---. Nothing strange---.

Is there a way you can actually make a post without insulting the integrity of the Pakistani Nation?

PDF seemed to be doing quite well these past few weeks in your absence. Stroke? One can only hope.

Don't worry - its not a threat. There is no need running to the mods by starting up a new Topic and claiming that i've threatened to kill you like you did the last time without Tagging me.

There are terms used for such individuals: Weasel - Pussy

I've seen Indian Members here with more backbone - and yes that is an indication to me referring to you as: Spineless

Insult Pakistan in any manner and that is what you'll get...جعلی گورا

 

[Akh1112]

i think most of you over looking your enemy's capabilities, like a feb 27th skirmish PAf can hold the line give a hard time to IAF no doubt about it but in prolonged war is that same? because in a prolonged war iit will be war attrition and technology, in that case IAf have mix of 4 and 4.5 gen fighter to relay on and use them as cannon folder, if iaf loos 20% its aircraft inventory they can still hold the line do the offensive, same cant be in the case of PAf if 10-20% PAf asset loose and 40% IAF loos considered still IAF have upper hand due to numbers game, yes we can debate number is not factor its all about skills and tactics, but if you look back to the past you can see even PAf given very hard time to IAF they never stooped offensive bombing in Pakistan, so in my opinion what Pakistan have to do get a numbers parity in 4 th and 4.5 gen fighter with IAf then only PAf have a real advantage in any real long term war

Thing is, tbh, PAF doesn't need to win, the ideal situation is for the PAF to deter the Indians from starting a war in the first place, heck, this is the same for the whole of the Pak Armed Forces, the goal is to deter, if we can make war costly enough for India, to the point where they decide its not worth it, that in itself is a victory. You also have to think of it in a wider sense. The IAF struggles from crippling pilot shortages, i.e in a scenario of a war, the IAF would not be able to fill every cockpit it has, of course, with attrition this number hugely fluctuates and whatnot.
I also think looking at the past isn't really a fair comparison. This is not the same PAF as it was a few decades ago. Realistically, in a larger sense, the PAF does have a qualitative advantage, they also have the advantage with technologies not very well known to the IAF, i.e dedicated EW platforms. The PAF, with the bulk of its training being NATO is highly proficient in 'smart warfare' where sure, the man plays a part, however, the machine is equally as important. You can argue the PAF's F-16/JF-17 combo, in terms of BVR would be able to handle the bulk of the IAF's fleet. Arguably, the biggest blunder was pursuing foreign platforms and not the Tejas. With the Tejas mk1a, the IAF would have had a very lethal machine, especially with its EL/M-2052 and Derby combo.

the problem of Pakistan and Indian analyst they only look form their side of view never question the asymmetry in governmental briefing never discussed, until a totally independent source release the truth we dont know what happend on 27th both side have their own stories as a nutrel i dont believe both ,in my view IAF failed to prevent PAF offensive in daylight and PAf failed to do similar in 26th night, but i think PAF more adapted to modern tactics than IAF and utilized the resource to maximum extend where IAf simply over confident on their belif let the guard down, it is impossible go unnoticed 24 ship formation closing highly monitored airspace, people can say qrf was on the way in terms of spy sat India have upper hand and they never noticed larger scrambling form different airbases over the Pakistan or they blindly believed their awac will do that job, anyway in the end PAF tactics give IAF true surprise am not going to take sides on su30 kill and f16 kill becoz you all know it will be like digging my own grave

The fact is, a 24 ship formation seems to be completely unrealistic tbh. The amount of ordnance in that strike package would be absurd, considering the PAF wanted to launch limited strikes to show their capability, i wouldn't really think they would need that much firepower for what wasn't much more than a show of force. It was an Indian claim that 24/25 aircraft had encroached into their airspace, this could very likely be just bs to save face that "look guys, we were just overwhelmed". Realistically, all we can take away from this is that the PAF employed superior tactics and made effective use of everything they had to complete the kill chain and be able to safely leave the engagement without a single loss. It showed the glaring issues with the IAF and in some way, did them a favour letting them know what gaps they need to close.

 

[The Raven]

Thing is, tbh, PAF doesn't need to win, the ideal situation is for the PAF to deter the Indians from starting a war in the first place, heck, this is the same for the whole of the Pak Armed Forces, the goal is to deter, if we can make war costly enough for India, to the point where they decide its not worth it, that in itself is a victory. You also have to think of it in a wider sense. The IAF struggles from crippling pilot shortages, i.e in a scenario of a war, the IAF would not be able to fill every cockpit it has, of course, with attrition this number hugely fluctuates and whatnot.
I also think looking at the past isn't really a fair comparison. This is not the same PAF as it was a few decades ago. Realistically, in a larger sense, the PAF does have a qualitative advantage, they also have the advantage with technologies not very well known to the IAF, i.e dedicated EW platforms. The PAF, with the bulk of its training being NATO is highly proficient in 'smart warfare' where sure, the man plays a part, however, the machine is equally as important. You can argue the PAF's F-16/JF-17 combo, in terms of BVR would be able to handle the bulk of the IAF's fleet. Arguably, the biggest blunder was pursuing foreign platforms and not the Tejas. With the Tejas mk1a, the IAF would have had a very lethal machine, especially with its EL/M-2052 and Derby combo.




The fact is, a 24 ship formation seems to be completely unrealistic tbh. The amount of ordnance in that strike package would be absurd, considering the PAF wanted to launch limited strikes to show their capability, i wouldn't really think they would need that much firepower for what wasn't much more than a show of force. It was an Indian claim that 24/25 aircraft had encroached into their airspace, this could very likely be just bs to save face that "look guys, we were just overwhelmed". Realistically, all we can take away from this is that the PAF employed superior tactics and made effective use of everything they had to complete the kill chain and be able to safely leave the engagement without a single loss. It showed the glaring issues with the IAF and in some way, did them a favour letting them know what gaps they need to close.

Brilliant post, I've been trying to get this across for some time.

 

[Pandora]

Fun fact: JF-17 can actually fit a larger radar than Rafale. Having enough T/R modules on AESA is vital for radar output as well as electronic warfare capabilities.

On the downside, there is no way for JF-17 to match Rafale's flight profile (speed, acceleration, sustained and instantaneous turn, climb rate). PAF pilots might want to keep the fight at BVR range.

Rafael doesnt really have much speed which one would expect from a twin engine jet. It can fly upto mach 1.8 which is similar to Thunder. Although super cruise does provide it an edge in close combat. Flight ceiling of thunders is much higher 54000 ft compared to 51000ft of Rafale. Range is also an issue for rafale bcz it cant fly more than 1800km radius without fuel tanks compared to 2500km for thunders. At the end of the day stats hardly matter bcz in the heat of battle quick wits and strategy play a vital role. Rafale despite all its advertisement shall remain a 4th gen jet which might provide couple of advantages but dont consider it as a top of the line jet. F-15/F-18 are much more capable and well rounded fighters in terms of technology and capability. Rafale is just a lemon for IAF which they had to induct bcz Modi lined up his pockets via that deal. French are notorious when it comes to giving kick backs. Augusta submarines scandal is the best example.

 

[Akh1112]

Brilliant post, I've been trying to get this across for some time.

Thank you

 

[The Raven]

What's interesting is that one of the major assets on 27/02/19 was the Falcon DA20 and how it was used effectively to cripple the IAF Comms and situation awareness. However, the PAF have only 2/3 of these and haven't added to their number over the years, despite their upgrades. Given the increasing number of JF-17B airframes, I think these will be used to replace the role of the Falcons. Avionics have come a long way since then Falcons were last upgraded, back in the late 90s/early 2000s I think. And with sophisticated EW pods, a few B model aircraft embedded in each squadron would provide very flexible tactical EW support.

 

[Pied Piper]

I think the PAF's pro-active aggressive training and tactics have paid dividends for it. It has always faced an adversary which has very large numbers and have had numerous sophisticated aircraft.

The IAF has large numbers of 4th plus generation combat aircraft ( 272+ SU30MKI, Mig-29s, Mirage 2000 aircrafts etc). Also a large number of Mig21 Bison (which have 4th generation technology and are BVR capable).

I have read numerous articles which gives the impression that PAF victories was due to its sophisticated combat aircrafts - which is completely incorrect as the IAF have the best calibre sophisticated aircraft. The IAF have a large Network Centric warfare capabilities with top of the line technologies from both East and West.

If the PAF had these IAF aircrafts and support structure - it would have been able to employ rapid air dominance and superiority. The fault with IAF is its training/tactics and not its combat aircraft.

The PAF needs to increase in its Electronic warfare/jamming aircraft and also increase its numbers with more BVR capable aircraft, this will ensure better deterrence and headache for the IAF.

 

[LeGenD]

Members are advised to not flamebait/insult each other and/or entire nationality. Thanks.

 

[denel]

What's interesting is that one of the major assets on 27/02/19 was the Falcon DA20 and how it was used effectively to cripple the IAF Comms and situation awareness. However, the PAF have only 2/3 of these and haven't added to their number over the years, despite their upgrades. Given the increasing number of JF-17B airframes, I think these will be used to replace the role of the Falcons. Avionics have come a long way since then Falcons were last upgraded, back in the late 90s/early 2000s I think. And with sophisticated EW pods, a few B model aircraft embedded in each squadron would provide very flexible tactical EW support.

I would disagree - at least for interimn. EW is a continuously evolving field and 10 years+ is a long time. It is time for the upgrade. JF-17B will take a long time to evolve into this role - not to mention the maturation and adoptation of various EW modules.

 

[AUz]

Lol... Political statements wont change facts on ground. May be this is for home consumption. , where does jf17 stand.

JF-17s shot down MKIs easily. That's where JFT stands

If mig 21 bison can shoot down F16

and india is a supa powa who defeated US and China at once and established its rule over the Earth

The defeated, humiliated hindus are always left with mental masturbations---while in real world...their lands are conquered, their territories broken into pieces and taken over by Muslims, and their military face humiliating defeats after defeats

Even Hindu historians have to write books like this when faced with reality

 

[AUz]

I just want IAF to succeed like it did during Kargil war, pounding enemy position without any resistance from PAF.
I don’t care what happens in smaller skirmishes like 27th Feb or Atlantique incident of 1999.

Just like in every single war, iaf was humiliated and defeated in Kargil too whenever they tried intruding into Pak air space

The only "successful missions" were carried out by iaf within indian air space....and that too, because PAF was not cleared to engage the enemy inside indian air space.

On 27th Feb, PAF was cleared to engage the enemy inside india and as expected, iaf was brutalized, humiliated, and defeated by superior PAF yet agan

 

[Trailer23]

Members are advised to not flamebait/insult each other and/or entire nationality. Thanks.

Its a tradition with this guy.

I have witnessed some Members (regardless of Nationality) get banned for much less. This individual has done it multiple times over the years and i've had just 'bout had enough of someone disrespecting our people/our Nation - especially when that someone carries the same flag.

I've already brought him down on Planet Earth once where he didn't even have the courage to respond which is a clear indication of one being weak-minded.

(If) PDF wants they can arrange for a 1-on-1 debate between the two of us without others interfering. He can trash talk* all he wants, as long as he stays within his (electric wheelchair speed-)limits as far Pakistan-bashing is concerned.

He attempts one more stunt like this and i'll go DEFCON 1 on him. I'll take the Ban like a man for the rest of Team who all know that he is nothing but a hack.

*"You kids these days...blah blah blah" and "تم تو بچے ہو".