Rafale jets are not enough to face Pakistani JF 17: Shahid Latif

[ziaulislam]

Can any conclusive doctrine be derived from 30 minutes air skirmish where there was complete mismatch in force strength on both sides??


Are MKI and M2Ks upgraded really superior to F-16 block52 armed with AMRAAM 120-C missiles?

Also they were only four in numbers compared to 24 PAF f-16s and JF17s menacing on them.

The fact is IAF had to scamble old Mig21s from Srinagar in haste as they were the closest to point of intrusion. Had Su30 were stationed in Srinagar as they currently are, situation would've been different. Of course, pakistan would have tried different strategy for it.

By the time it was over, two dozen Su30s and Mig29s had arrived in Kashmiri airspace but had to go back as there was no further attempt of intrusion by PAF.

Never understood why IAF backed down

 

[MastanKhan]

@ Mastan Khan
Only proved it for the FOOLS living in a dillusional world,
Will you clarify who is living in delusional world? Will please share what you wrote 15 years back about it for us Sir ? I have been keenly reading your dissenting views,otherwise everyone harp on the same tune. Having one's own point of view in face of bigger opposition matters more. One can not can get holistic picture without such valuable experienced professional.

Hi,

Welcome to the forum

I wrote about the future air combat at that time---the number of aircraft would not be 2 or 4 but would be in 20's and 30's and as the success of the primary raid became obvious the number of aircraft involved would even go higher for the later raids---.

Basically a swarm type strike and air dominance flights after the first successes to neutralize the enemy air assets real quick real fast---without giving it the chance to re-group---re-asses---re-organize its strategy---making the first 24 hours most intense in air combat and trying to neuter the opponent's surveillance, fighter and strike aircrafts within the first 48 to 72 hours

As well---the primary mode of the combat would be BVR and the merge would be totally FORBIDDEN---or avoided at all costs. Bvr combat would rule air to air combat---shoot and scoot would be the name of the game.

It was along those lines that I had written my piece---.

A Blitzkrieg---.

 

[Saifullah]

The latest RD-93MA has nearly 15% increased thrust over RD-93 on Block II. In addition, WS-13E is also available as an upgrade option. I don't think power is much of an issue on JF-17. There is only so many T/R modules you can pack into Rafale's small nose, regardless of power output.

I think the figure of increased thrust is around 7%.
Radar dome of both the aircrafts is pretty similar so the difference in size of radar is not going to be significant enough to make a difference while the available power is greater in Rafale which will tilt the advantage to Rafale.
The aircrafts will be detected early on from both sides because of AWACS so maximum detection range is not a biggie the quality of radar processing at the backend is the real deal.
So if we keep improving the backend processing in JF it is more than enough to handle any aircrafts in IAF.

 

[danger007]

The Rafale is a good fighter. But don’t let it take on too hard work.When it was born, its main opponents were Su-27 and MiG-29.At that time jf17 was just beginning.At that time, the Rafale was the best fighter. But 20 years have passed.JF17's new radar has reached the level of F35.

Of course, we should admit that Rafale is still better than JF17 in comprehensive capabilities.But how can only 36 planes compete with a larger number of blk3?

Level of what..are you sure??

 

[Salman876]

Thing is, tbh, PAF doesn't need to win, the ideal situation is for the PAF to deter the Indians from starting a war in the first place, heck, this is the same for the whole of the Pak Armed Forces, the goal is to deter, if we can make war costly enough for India, to the point where they decide its not worth it, that in itself is a victory. You also have to think of it in a wider sense. The IAF struggles from crippling pilot shortages, i.e in a scenario of a war, the IAF would not be able to fill every cockpit it has, of course, with attrition this number hugely fluctuates and whatnot.
I also think looking at the past isn't really a fair comparison. This is not the same PAF as it was a few decades ago. Realistically, in a larger sense, the PAF does have a qualitative advantage, they also have the advantage with technologies not very well known to the IAF, i.e dedicated EW platforms. The PAF, with the bulk of its training being NATO is highly proficient in 'smart warfare' where sure, the man plays a part, however, the machine is equally as important. You can argue the PAF's F-16/JF-17 combo, in terms of BVR would be able to handle the bulk of the IAF's fleet. Arguably, the biggest blunder was pursuing foreign platforms and not the Tejas. With the Tejas mk1a, the IAF would have had a very lethal machine, especially with its EL/M-2052 and Derby combo.




The fact is, a 24 ship formation seems to be completely unrealistic tbh. The amount of ordnance in that strike package would be absurd, considering the PAF wanted to launch limited strikes to show their capability, i wouldn't really think they would need that much firepower for what wasn't much more than a show of force. It was an Indian claim that 24/25 aircraft had encroached into their airspace, this could very likely be just bs to save face that "look guys, we were just overwhelmed". Realistically, all we can take away from this is that the PAF employed superior tactics and made effective use of everything they had to complete the kill chain and be able to safely leave the engagement without a single loss. It showed the glaring issues with the IAF and in some way, did them a favour letting them know what gaps they need to close.

The favour PAF has given them will be dangerous

 

[drunken-monke]

i admit in 30 minutes i can't make biryani...hell i cant even make it in whole day coz i cant even fry an egg...but PAF did shoot down 2 aircrafts of IAF in 30 minutes and achieved local superiority over a bigger foe. that's the only conclusion/fact.

Concrete Proof of mki shoot down does not exist.. neither it is for F16. Only confirmed downed jet was Mig 21.
At-least IAF shown radar tracks for f16 vanishing. But not even such sort of proof is there presented by PAF to claim downing of mki.

 

[redtom]

Level of what..are you sure??

KLJ-7A(JF17-blk3) VS AN/APG-81(F35)
The parameters are public and you can simply Google them

 

[Ghost 125]

Concrete Proof of mki shoot down does not exist.. neither it is for F16. Only confirmed downed jet was Mig 21.
At-least IAF shown radar tracks for f16 vanishing. But not even such sort of proof is there presented by PAF to claim downing of mki.

no they didnt they ve only shown prepared power point slides showing the location of F 16. not the actual radar picture

 

[wasileo80]

In 30 minutes you can't even make Biryani and you guys have reached to so many comforting conclusions over air skirmish lasting same period of time.If this helps you get sound sleep so be it.

How illiterate you are? 30 Min in air battle is a lot of time. You can achieve so much in 30 Min air battle, which you cant achieve may be in a week while fighting on ground. You can twist stories which suits you for saving your face. But reality cannot change even you tried spreading lies for thousand year. Truth is only one and it is visible to everyone but the lies have different version which you, your so called professional institutions and your lair media is spreading on daily basis. And really no one in the whole world give a shit to any stories spread by Indians.

 

[LeGenD]

KLJ-7A(JF17-blk3) VS AN/APG-81(F35)
The parameters are public and you can simply Google them

Much about both radar systems is not public knowledge.

Based on limited information in Public domain; AN/APG-81 is relatively bigger and more powerful radar system. This comparison should not be drawn.

Furthermore, in F-35 variants, radar system does not work in isolation but is completely fused with other electronic systems to produce a single unified picture of the environment and potential threats - almost all jets fall short in comparison.

 

[wasileo80]

It is something that would make interesting debate.
What if 4 su30s had scrambled instead of four Mig21s that day?

Today, they will take off as Su30 are actually stationed there.And I think PAF would certainty take hard look into account this possibility today as Su30 would be first responders to any PAF intrusion.

If 4 Su-30 had scrambled that day instead of 4 Mig-21s and they tried to vectored towards LOC, then surely the score aginst MKI would be 5-0 instead of 1-0.

 

[PakSword]

Concrete Proof of mki shoot down does not exist.. neither it is for F16. Only confirmed downed jet was Mig 21.
At-least IAF shown radar tracks for f16 vanishing. But not even such sort of proof is there presented by PAF to claim downing of mki.

The kind of proof that you have presented, a grade 10 student can also do that with the help of computer applications currently available.

Your forces lost credibility when they said Abhinandan fired his missiles. Your media lost it when it spread fake news of 350 people dead the previous day. Your forces further lost their remaining credibility when they told their public that Pakistani bombs didn't explode.. your media lost the objectivity when it didn't ask your government to take the journalists to the sites which PAF claimed it hit on 27th Feb.

 

[wasileo80]

Concrete Proof of mki shoot down does not exist.. neither it is for F16. Only confirmed downed jet was Mig 21.
At-least IAF shown radar tracks for f16 vanishing. But not even such sort of proof is there presented by PAF to claim downing of mki.

Yes you are right that there is no concrete proof for public only of MKI shot down. But IAF got what it deserve on 27th Feb last year. Also PAF have all proofs and it share all those proofs with friendly air forces which they acknowledged.
The real thing is PAF does not shoot down or strike your military installation in Illegaly occupied kashmir to give proof to Public but to send a message to Indian Military and Indian Govt. who were in delusion mode before 27th Feb. 2019. Now they are well in their sense. This is the only objective which PAF achieved quite successfully.

 

[The Eagle]

After watching this sort of usual stuff from Pakistan one thing comes to my mind.

I know you guys love Indian defense analysists like Praveen shahaney, Ajai Shukla or Abhijit Iyer-Mitra and they are famous on PDF for obvious reasons.

But is there anyone in Pakistan who does similar critical analysis of Pakistani military, please name one if you know.


@Windjammer @The Eagle @LeGenD @Vapnope @PanzerKiel
@masterchief_mirza
@Major Sam
@PakSword @Blacklight @Hareeb @DESERT FIGHTER @araz @Rafi @Zarvan @waz @M.AsfandYar @Basel @IceCold @crankthatskunk @airomerix
@MastanKhan @FOOLS_NIGHTMARE

May be these guys loves how the MiG & MKI were shot down during real skirmish and no one relies on some Indian Defence Analysts. The res of the media bravado is all that India does so every now & then and what anyone can do on an online Forum.

 

[The SC]

JF-17 Thunder vs Rafale Fighter Jets is a comparison that every defence expert is analysing. Indian Air Force (IAF) chief recently warned about the shortcomings of the Rafale fighter jets in a probable comparison to JF-17 Thunder. This statement came exactly a year later since Pakistan outgunned India’s top fighter jet in Balakot.


According to the Global Times and secondary research by the EurAsian Times, the latest, powered-up version of the JF-17 fighter jet reportedly features technologies from China’s high-end J-20 fighter jet that will immensely boost its combat efficiency.

According to pictures disseminated on various social media platform, the JF-17 aircraft is installed with many commercial off-the-shelf technologies from the state-owned Aviation Industry Corporation of China.

These include a new and larger holographic wide-angle head-up display and integrated cockpit display comparable to the one used by the J-20, in addition to an advanced infrared missile approach warning system used by J-20 fighter jets.

Analysts said the new additions to the JF-17 can give pilots more situational awareness, permitting them to concentrate more on combat instead of flying the aircraft. In March 2019, Yang Wei, chief designer of the fighter jet, said development and production of the JF-17 Block 3 were underway, and the third block will see the JF-17’s information-based warfare capability and weapons enhanced.

PL-15 Missiles For JF-17

The reports regarding the deployment of longer-ranged Chinese PL-15 missiles on an upgraded JF-17 jet have caused anxiety in the Indian Air Force. Global Times earlier reported that the upgraded JF-17 will host an infrared search and track system along with a cross-section radar that lessens the pseudo-stealthy airframe. The PL-15’s beyond visual range missile has reportedly also caused serious worry in the Pentagon.

The PL-15’s striking range in actual aerial engagements is definitely lower than the maximum range 300 km but is nevertheless much greater than its US’ AIM-120 AMRAAM estimated to be approximately 180 km.

US general Herbert Carlisle voiced serious concerns in 2015 when the development of the PL-15 entered the public domain: “Look at our adversaries and what they’re developing, things like the PL-15 and the range of that weapon.” General Carlisle raised the same issue in an interview with FlightGlobal: “The PL-15 and the range of that missile, we’ve got to be able to out-stick that missile.”

The PL-15 missile, which is a radar-guided weapon, is advertised as having a greater range than both US-built AMRAAM and the Russian R-77, which is in service with the Indian Air Force.
With a length of over 4metres, the PL-15 is much longer than the AMRAAM and has a powerful radar and rocket motor. Experts writing for EurAsian Times maintain that the fundamental role of the PL-15 is to demolish ‘high-value’ targets such as airborne early-warning aircraft (AWACS) and aerial refuelling aircraft, which could handicap any opponent including the US.

The PL-15 uses a conventional rocket motor, unlike the Meteor missile which will be used by the Rafale fighter jets for the IAF. The Meteor has a stated range of “well in excess of 150km” according to its manufacturers but is also smaller in length than the PL-15.

Therefore, experts talking to the EurAsian Times conclude that the PL-15 has a greater range than the Meteor on account of its higher fuel capacity and poses a serious threat to the French origin jets which will be operated by the Indian Air Force.

https://eurasiantimes.com/jf-17-vs-...serious-threat-to-indian-rafale-fighter-jets/