Rafale jets are not enough to face Pakistani JF 17: Shahid Latif

[PakAlp]

Hi,

Technology is not tested in the battlefield---.

A war is a bad time to test the technology.

Technology is tested years before a conflict starts---.

Ok ill keep that in mind but don't want to see Pakistan firing blanks

 

[waz]

The size is one thing. The mastery of an AESA radar, a masterpiece in electronic system, another.
The chinese weapon system are all not combat proven. They are not bench marked in trainings against potent west counterparts. They are mainly direct derivatives of russian weapons, and the ukrainian war is not really a nice selling argument for russain an so chinese products.

And the radar is a part of a fighter weapon system. How is the rest? How potent is the electronic counter measures sytem of JF17 or J10? Is there a data fusion?

Western experts state that Chinese radar,EW etc overlook Russia years ago, and are impressive.

 

[PakAlp]

Just for correction...

Jf17 was purchased to replace the ageing A-5C, F-7P/PG, Mirage III, and Mirage V

And Hal Tejas was built to replace mig 21

Yes its correct Jf17 was inducted to replace the ageing jets but this doesn't mean its the same plane or the same capability. Jf17 replacing f7s, mirages was a dream for Pakistan and it came true. Paf built a cost effective plane with max concentration on weapons quality, they nearly replaced all 3rd generation jets with 4th and 4.5th generation fighter jet or weapons. At the moment paf has 138 jf17s and another 50 blocks will be inducted soon. We can even induct 300 Jf17s. Overall it was a successful project.

 

[arslank03]

Tejas Flying coffin?? How many Tejas crashed till date?? NOnt mention the numbers, IAF has more than 30 aircrafts flying without any incident.

How many crashes JF 17 suffered? 4 if I am not mistaken..

So, your point is invalid.

two bird strikes, one CFIT and one technical fault. A fleet of 130 aircraft.

OTOH, Tejas, total FCS failure in flight according to the IAF.

But yes, you're right, Tejas has had no crashes. Of course it cant crash if it doesnt fly. Its like me saying ive never drowned, but i dont swim. Pat yourself on the back for that achievement.

 

[Raj-Hindustani]

Yes its correct Jf17 was inducted to replace the ageing jets but this doesn't mean its the same plane or the same capability. Jf17 replacing f7s, mirages was a dream for Pakistan and it came true. Paf built a cost effective plane with max concentration on weapons quality, they nearly replaced all 3rd generation jets with 4th and 4.5th generation fighter jet or weapons. At the moment paf has 138 jf17s and another 50 blocks will be inducted soon. We can even induct 300 Jf17s. Overall it was a successful project.

The same case with HAL Tejas MK1 and MK1a, Sir.

But they (HAL Tejas MK1a or Jf 17 Block 3 ) are absolutely not comparable to Rafale, EF, or F18 super hornet. HAL Tejas Mk1a and JF17 come under the lightweight category......Both are almost equal capable aircraft.

HAL Tejas Mk1a with Astra-2 160 KM missiles and JF17 block 3 with 150 KM missiles.

Now depends on requirements:

YOu should ask, Why Chinese never Inducted JF17? Because it does not fulfill their requirements as primary fighter aircraft. ... They are having much better aircraft for forwarding and primary deployment.

The same case with India. HAL Tejas Mk1a will never be called a front-line fighter... Basically, IAF wanted an interceptor aircraft. Even being the equal capable aircraft compared to JF 17 block 3...

India's biggest threat comes from the Chinese airforce.. This is the reason that IAF wants their primary fighters should be more capable to deal with better Chinese aircraft.

India's primary fighter can never be similar capable to aircraft like HAL Tejas or JF 17 Aircraft... As per IAF requirements, HAL Tejas Mk1 and Mk1a are always a 2nd tier aircraft after better front line aircraft's in IAF

 

[MastanKhan]

Ok ill keep that in mind but don't want to see Pakistan firing blanks

Hi,

The integration process of any weapon & weapon's system is extremely realistic minus the actual death of an individual.

The weapon that will prove itself in a truthful assessment in testing will perform upto the mark in actual combat.

 

[Solidify]

Tejas Flying coffin?? How many Tejas crashed till date?? NOnt mention the numbers, IAF has more than 30 aircrafts flying without any incident.

How many crashes JF 17 suffered? 4 if I am not mistaken..

So, your point is invalid.

Give the Tejas another 2 years to drop from the skies since they JUST started flying after 40+ years of lagging behind in production capabilities.

Crashes for technical reasons happen when you're combating in Western (Afghanistan) arena of Pakistan & be prepared for Eastern arena (India), even the US air force has 12-15 crashes per year so no big deal. AND DON'T LET ME GET INITIATED ON IAF GARBAGE TRACK RECORDS OF INDIAN AIRCRAFTS CRASHES with dead PILOTS including SU30, Mig 21's just to name a few. What was the last Mig 21 crashed just last 2 weeks ago & 1 more last month.
So like I said there is NO COMPARISON of PAF record versus IAF in aircraft maintenance & safety.
Check your FACTS before uttering rubbish on a thread do your research before wasting my time!
Also PAF employs 2.5 pilots per PAF aircrafts at any given time which reflects quality of skillset available where IAF employs only 1 lousy pilot per aircraft also he is out dated under trained NOT up to date & below par with current technology updates hence reason for 27 Feb Balakot FAILURE OF IAF birds dropping from the SKY.

Yes its correct Jf17 was inducted to replace the ageing jets but this doesn't mean its the same plane or the same capability. Jf17 replacing f7s, mirages was a dream for Pakistan and it came true. Paf built a cost effective plane with max concentration on weapons quality, they nearly replaced all 3rd generation jets with 4th and 4.5th generation fighter jet or weapons. At the moment paf has 138 jf17s and another 50 blocks will be inducted soon. We can even induct 300 Jf17s. Overall it was a successful project.

Very successful project indeed Jf-17s. That would be at cost of 1/4 of western aircrafts & with total air superiority in the sky with latest trends.

 

[FuturePAF]

The size is one thing. The mastery of an AESA radar, a masterpiece in electronic system, another.
The chinese weapon system are all not combat proven. They are not bench marked in trainings against potent west counterparts. They are mainly direct derivatives of russian weapons, and the ukrainian war is not really a nice selling argument for russain an so chinese products.

No. JF17 is already a son of Mig21. Using it to make another son will be a mistake (as Boeing with the last version of B737...).
J10 is the right answer for Pak.

At a certain point, the older JF-17 will need to be replaced. If the budget grows due to a growing economy, I would agree; transitioning to the J-10 is the way to go, but if the budget stays limited the PAF may only be able to afford to keep modernizing the JF-17 to keep up.

As far as getting “combat experience” for Chinese electronics, the Chinese maybe stepping up that on their own by their increased tempo of exercises around Taiwan, but the PAF may also have to prepare custom JF-17s (with radars that only demonstrate certain waveforms and sensitive ECM equipment) for exercises with friendly nations operating planes like the Eurofighters, F-15s, F-18s and Rafale.

The same sub-systems could be put in either aircraft, but they would do the most benefit in a J-10 then the JF-17. Also, the PAF builds and can repair the JF-17 in house. Perhaps updating the design to accommodate the more powerful engine, if available, would be enough to allow it to soldier on for a few more decades as a backbone workhorse platform.

On the other hand, if the PAF transitions to J-10 local production, once the Block 3 JF-17s orders are filled, it would be the most beneficial for advancing domestic fighter production capabilities. J-10 upgrades can be applied quickly in house and after the initial 25-36 order, and a further at least 54-65 J-10 could be built partially in Pakistan.

Domestic license production of the WS-13 and WS-10 should also be a goal, so that the WS-10 could be used in PAF variants of the T-FX. Backfilling as much ToT in sub-systems should be a goal to keep maintenance as quick as possible.

I agree, transitioning to the J-10 would be a better use of resources then continuing the JF-17’s development, but maximizing the potential of the JF-17 should be looked into, considering nearly half the PAF fleet will be made up of JF-17s. The sooner this design is maxed out and build and the older planes rebuild with the upgrade, the PAF can then move on to other platforms, like the possibilities with a WS-10B3 or WS-15 equipped J-10; such as supercruise for long range naval operations, to take on the F/A-18E/F that are probably soon to be inducted by the IN.

 

[BON PLAN]

Western experts state that Chinese radar,EW etc overlook Russia years ago, and are impressive.

What kind of experts? some name please.

Western experts state that Chinese radar,EW etc overlook Russia years ago, and are impressive.

AT least it's not the case of engine : the time detween overhaul of the chinese copy of russian engine is so small... And they had to work for 20+ years and spend billions to have a ppor copy.

25 years ago a french navy officier had the opportulity to visit a brand new chinese frigate (I think it was during the visit of the ship in a french overseas harbour. Maybe new caledona, I don't remember) : he was so suprised to see that some internal partitions were made of ply wood ! So nice externaly, but shitty internaly.

Honnestly, as they struggle to have access to the best microships of the world (built in.... Taiwan !!! ), their electronic devices are unlikely to be at the top level.

 

[BON PLAN]

Yes its correct Jf17 was inducted to replace the ageing jets but this doesn't mean its the same plane or the same capability. Jf17 replacing f7s, mirages was a dream for Pakistan and it came true. Paf built a cost effective plane with max concentration on weapons quality, they nearly replaced all 3rd generation jets with 4th and 4.5th generation fighter jet or weapons. At the moment paf has 138 jf17s and another 50 blocks will be inducted soon. We can even induct 300 Jf17s. Overall it was a successful project.

JF17 is a cost effective solution to replace mig21. But it's main weakness is the same than Mig21 one : small range.
It's just impossible for a US, a russian, a french, a chinese LIGHT fighter to have the capacity of a MEDIUM or HEAVY one. JF17 is a nice LIGHT fighter, that's all.

 

[drunken-monke]

two bird strikes, one CFIT and one technical fault. A fleet of 130 aircraft.

OTOH, Tejas, total FCS failure in flight according to the IAF.

But yes, you're right, Tejas has had no crashes. Of course it cant crash if it doesnt fly. Its like me saying ive never drowned, but i dont swim. Pat yourself on the back for that achievement.

From 2016 to 2022, IAF has inducted more than 30 aircrafts which are flying at unknown bases routinely. Yes, we pat our establishment for self reliance and flawless record. We can understand your pain of losing 4 Jf aircrafts in crashes. But we can't help.. Meanwhile, keep bashing Tejas, which is futile and won't impact any of us, although it will surely satisfy your hollow sense of superiority.

 

[drunken-monke]

Give the Tejas another 2 years to drop from the skies since they JUST started flying after 40+ years of lagging behind in production capabilities.

Crashes for technical reasons happen when you're combating in Western (Afghanistan) arena of Pakistan & be prepared for Eastern arena (India), even the US air force has 12-15 crashes per year so no big deal. AND DON'T LET ME GET INITIATED ON IAF GARBAGE TRACK RECORDS OF INDIAN AIRCRAFTS CRASHES with dead PILOTS including SU30, Mig 21's just to name a few. What was the last Mig 21 crashed just last 2 weeks ago & 1 more last month.
So like I said there is NO COMPARISON of PAF record versus IAF in aircraft maintenance & safety.
Check your FACTS before uttering rubbish on a thread do your research before wasting my time!
Also PAF employs 2.5 pilots per PAF aircrafts at any given time which reflects quality of skillset available where IAF employs only 1 lousy pilot per aircraft also he is out dated under trained NOT up to date & below par with current technology updates hence reason for 27 Feb Balakot FAILURE OF IAF birds dropping from the SKY.


Very successful project indeed Jf-17s. That would be at cost of 1/4 of western aircrafts & with total air superiority in the sky with latest trends.

Another post with Bashing IAF and Tejas, and justifying the crashes while comparing with other air forces..
Yes, crashes do happen, that doesn't make IAF warriors lousy. That's a shame that you don't use civilized language for men in uniform. I won't use that kind of language for PAF pilots.. There is level which I will maintain. You are free to fall...

 

[Mav3rick]

Sir,

This video was made in a different time---years ago.

No need to insult your soldier who gave us the JF17.

Maybe you need to learn a lesson from Indians.

There is no one more qualified than AVM Latif on this topic.

You are in the " WAR ZONE ".

The JF17 BLK 3 should be coming out shortly---. A lot will be revealed then or may be not.

" yeh tau jahaz hein---inhayn settle karnay kay liay saal ha saal lagtay hein ".

Just remember that.

People like Shahid Latif are indeed aware of a lot more things than I do or many others do and hence it is even more painful to hear him belittle one of the best Jets of its generation (4.5++). Thunders would indeed be very good but if they were good enough, our Vipers would have been resting easy in Feb 2019 as opposed to them taking lead in Air Superiority roles.

Do I think our Thunders can take on Rafale, No; Do I think our Vipers can take on Rafale, No. Do you think our Thunders or even Vipers can take on Rafale in Air Superiority? The scenario is without external support from ground based or aerial EW/AWACS etc.

 

[Catalystic]

Well if they had half the guts and were confident in Rafales they would’ve already tried to get some revenge……..what are they scared of now??? After that brahmos saga they should’ve been more willing and/or brave ??

If they think they’re superior to Pak, why not bring out the rafales and test them live action??
Abhi b dertay ho kya?? Bring it on….kabhi ao idher, sari qaum intezar ker rahi ha

 

[waz]

What kind of experts? some name please.


AT least it's not the case of engine : the time detween overhaul of the chinese copy of russian engine is so small... And they had to work for 20+ years and spend billions to have a ppor copy.

25 years ago a french navy officier had the opportulity to visit a brand new chinese frigate (I think it was during the visit of the ship in a french overseas harbour. Maybe new caledona, I don't remember) : he was so suprised to see that some internal partitions were made of ply wood ! So nice externaly, but shitty internaly.

Honnestly, as they struggle to have access to the best microships of the world (built in.... Taiwan !!! ), their electronic devices are unlikely to be at the top level.

There's plenty out there, I'm surprised you question this.....

In a recent report, the UK-based think tank contends that Russia and China are on different trajectories in combat aircraft development, with China taking a clear lead in areas such as sensors, datalinks, weapons, and low-observable technology. The single area where Russia retains an edge over China is in aircraft engines

China surpassing Russia in airpower technology: RUSI

The Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) has concluded that China is well on its way to eclipsing Russia in the field of combat aircraft. In a recent report, the UK-based think tank contends that Russia and China are on different trajectories in combat aircraft development, with China taking a...

www.flightglobal.com

This was also 2 years ago now.