Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[araz]

Our production rate of Block 3 is very low, we should have 35 to 50 block 3 by 2025. Replacing 5 squadrons of Mirage with JF-17 in 5 years is impossible.

Integrating squadrons into the system at such pace is not possible for PAF. Plus there is planned integration of squadrons based on when planes are due to be phased out and when infrastructure for maintenance can be setup locally. I think finances are the main reason for this although there maybe other technical glitches that we may not be aware of which is why PAC is taking it slowly with the block 3.
A

 

[Armchair]

since mirages are mainly aluminum airframes, would be interesting to do a heat treatment, then coat of copper via electrolysis and then again do a heat treatment. basically create a layer of aluminum bronze. if u did this with all the parts, the aircraft would become a little heavier but will zero hour the parts and drastically reduce erosion. Also undo past erosion with a new layer. just a thought.

 

[Nomad40]

Video's done 95% - The 5% is where I try to perfect it to the Max.
Just need to clean up as many logo's on the sides.
Titles.

Note sure about effects, will see.

Might take a Day or two.

THANKS man Mirages for life.

 

[Bossman]

since mirages are mainly aluminum airframes, would be interesting to do a heat treatment, then coat of copper via electrolysis and then again do a heat treatment. basically create a layer of aluminum bronze. if u did this with all the parts, the aircraft would become a little heavier but will zero hour the parts and drastically reduce erosion. Also undo past erosion with a new layer. just a thought.

Is not about erosion it’s about fatigue.

 

[Armchair]

Is not about erosion it’s about fatigue.

solution could possibly could solve that as well

 

[Bossman]

solution could possibly could solve that as well

If the answer was that simple why is not everyone doing it. They are better ways to protect against erosion. Remember the yellow primer all airframes have. And I am not talking about fatigue just erosion.

 

[Armchair]

If the answer was that simple why is not everyone doing it. They are better ways to protect against erosion. Remember the yellow primer all airframes have. And I am not talking about fatigue just erosion.

everyone does not have the unique problem of dealing with ALUMINUM fatigue and erosion from fighter aircraft of the 60s. u r jumping about from erosion to fatigue to erosion with nothing new or meaningful to contribute. seems its an ego issue.

do u always go around telling ppl on a discussion forum "u r wrong... becoz... duh... uhhh... if it was that simple they wud have dunnit"?

here is a gora journal saying it... now you can take it seriously...
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-48764-9_124

what was that... something about Macauley's minute on Indian education...

 

[Bossman]

everyone does not have the unique problem of dealing with ALUMINUM fatigue and erosion from fighter aircraft of the 60s. u r jumping about from erosion to fatigue to erosion with nothing new or meaningful to contribute. seems its an ego issue.

do u always go around telling ppl on a discussion forum "u r wrong... becoz... duh... uhhh... if it was that simple they wud have dunnit"?

here is a gora journal saying it... now you can take it seriously...
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-48764-9_124

what was that... something about Macauley's minute on Indian education...

No reference to bronze coating in the paper. Why I tell people that they are wrong is because people like to make big claims without doing their homework.

 

[Armchair]

thank Allah pdf has an ignore list

 

[Basel]

Current inventory has between 200 - 250 older planes.

7 Squadron Bandits Mirage III ROSE I
8 Squadron Haiders Mirage 5PA2/PA3
15 Squadron Cobras Mirage 5PA
17 Squadron Tigers F-7PG
23 Squadron Talons F-7PG
25 Squadron Eagles Mirage 5 ROSE II
27 Squadron Zarrars Mirage 5 ROSE III


if we have limited production of Jf-17 block 3, It will take 20 years to replace older planes.

It's better to buy J-10C or J1X with lease instead of any handicapped bird from west.

 

[Scorpiooo]

My question is with actual experts here, Do you really think thandar block 2 or may he block 3 will be actual replacement for role of mirage 5 in PAF ?

PG's are only 15-20 years old. Quite "young" in PAF terms. By all accounts it still has a decent radar and turning ability, coupled with AIM-9L/M its almost BVR capable and can act as a decent gap filler and point defence aircraft. Also I know in PAF it's valued as a lead in trainer and DACM aircraft. The two Sqds we have are at based at Peshawar and Samunguli, so facing Iran and Afghanistan for routine air patrol duties. For that role they are more then enough as we do not expect armed confrontation in the air from these two in the future. I don't see the F-7PG leaving service for at least another 10 years.

Mirages are another story. Even the ROSE upgrade now is dated. PAF were very clever in obtaining a stock of relatively low hour airframes from all over the Middle East, France and Australia. Reserve is such we can just get any spare part we want from airframes in stock, no need to even go to manufacturer and where we do need to make something basic PAC has been doing for years. Essentially PAC could make a brand new Mirage from scratch if you asked them. This has made operating Mirage easy and cheap. Unlike issue India has with Jaguar which is same age. They have big fleet but no major spares reserve or spare air frames HAL has to produce every new part they need, also Jaguar is very under powered (they cancelled new engines over cost), Mirage was verlucky in having powerful ATAR engine. Not only had this enabled it to carry heavy loads like RAAD and H2/H4 but also provide enough surplus power for new equipment (Grifo radar, EW etc). This is why PAF love this plane.

Issue now is cost of upgrading this plane (replacing ATAR engine, AESA radar, ECM kit, new cockpit, HMD etc) is simply not worth it anymore. Add to that maintenece hours that increase for every flight hour due to age, training pilots to fly this plane. All of this is not worth it when we are churning out JF-17s at a relatively low cost and JF-17 has more capability. Only issue is we have simply so many Mirage Sqds that it will take at least another 5 years to fully replace all the fleet.

As you said "Essentially PAC could make a brand new Mirage from scratch if you asked them"
Then why dont PAC go for its local copy witj same delta wings change any component if thay want with thandar part. Like Chinese are doings for year coping others jets as it is.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

It's better to buy J-10C or J1X with lease instead of any handicapped bird from west.

If the option is available, I'd rather roll AZM into the J-35 with an ironclad agreement with the Chinese to source 33%+ of that fighter from Pakistan in perpetuity.

Should a PLAAF and PLAN order of 1,000 come through, it would mean a lot of jobs, work and hard/foreign-currency returns for Pakistan. It would allow PAC to invest the proceeds back into R&D and building out its pool of experts, special projects, etc.

You can set-up a tender: The PAF will co-invest in an FGFA provided the principal or main partner agrees to our workshare and technology/R&D sharing requirements. It's the most realistic avenue for getting a FGFA earlier than later.

I don't know if the Chinese will agree to intentionally create a potential fault in their supply chain by relying on Pakistan. However, I don't think it's impossible: with deft and skillful diplomacy (like convincing China that it's stature in the world is tied to its integration into regional powers -- ala US and Japan/ROK), it's doable.

We can't do much about the engineering and industrial limitations in so little time, but the foreign relations and diplomacy domain is another ballgame. The latter can affect the former, and it's never too late to do a good job at it.

@Deino @aziqbal @JamD

 

[aziqbal]

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) I have said all along that Azm will be FC-31 project tailored for PAF

but too many fanboys on this forum are dreaming about Pakistan building from scratch a 5 generation fighter and apparently we can also make the stealth engine and a 6th generation air to air missile for it too, ridiculous as they come

the Azm project will be in some form the J-31 it cannot be anything else, not even Turkish project too far out we cannot pull the Turks in

Yes China and FC-31 defiantly has a chance and even that we will be more like assembling and NOT building from scratch a true indigenous 5th generation fighter

now I will wait for some members to take the bait on this

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) I have said all along that Azm will be FC-31 project tailored for PAF

but too many fanboys on this forum are dreaming about Pakistan building from scratch a 5 generation fighter and apparently we can also make the stealth engine and a 6th generation air to air missile for it too, ridiculous as they come

the Azm project will be in some form the J-31 it cannot be anything else, not even Turkish project too far out we cannot pull the Turks in

Yes China and FC-31 defiantly has a chance and even that we will be more like assembling and NOT building from scratch a true indigenous 5th generation fighter

now I will wait for some members to take the bait on this

The key is getting a decent % of the total manufacturing work. The rest is all for show, but if we are the source of 33%+ of the fighter -- i.e., landing gear, wings, canopy and tail -- that would be good enough. Entering the PLAAF/PLAN's supply chain would be a game changer, and a natural next step.

 

[Scorpiooo]

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) I have said all along that Azm will be FC-31 project tailored for PAF

but too many fanboys on this forum are dreaming about Pakistan building from scratch a 5 generation fighter and apparently we can also make the stealth engine and a 6th generation air to air missile for it too, ridiculous as they come

the Azm project will be in some form the J-31 it cannot be anything else, not even Turkish project too far out we cannot pull the Turks in

Yes China and FC-31 defiantly has a chance and even that we will be more like assembling and NOT building from scratch a true indigenous 5th generation fighter

now I will wait for some members to take the bait on this

Solid point, most probably thing like thundar program but instead of open partnership of 60/40 it will hidden partnership
Its quite clear china is not going for FC31 for its Airforce just its naval cousin version j35. That support another cousin version can outcome of project azm with minor differences or enhancements as per Pakistan need