The Balance of Air power in Sub-continent considering latest inductions of Platforms / capabilities by PAF

[SQ8]

Begani shadi mein abdullah deewanay sums up a lot of this thread

 

[CSAW]

Begani shadi mein abdullah deewanay sums up a lot of this thread

As a senior member with great knowledge & inputs forum wide for so many years , Can you elaborate Please .

The Professional comment / input would lead to Learning & [Any] course corrections with pleasure.

“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfills the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.” Winston Churchill

If recommended - The thread could even be discontinued / closed Provided :

-it is not able to capture various news related effecting possible inductions in Pakistan's Aerial Assets in future. Potential Sources Turkiye & China in most cases
-Inductions update from India which may upset the balance

From my side - Would request Moderators / Admin to close the thread permanently as per advice of Sr member(s).

Thanks

 

[Falcon26]

THE CASE OF OZGUR F-16 UPGRADES WITHOUT SOURCE CODES

"U.B.A.S or Aircraft Independent Firing System is the Turkish workaround for not being able to upgrade or integrate local weapons with US Supplied F-16s in absence of OFP Source Codes.

Source codes = programming software that makes up the executable Operational Flight Program (OFP) in the mission computer. You cannot modify your aircraft in any way or fire certain weapons without having access to those codes.

As a simplified explaination - accesses the weapons interface using that tablet on the ICP/UFC, which is hooked up to a device on the glareshield. That enables the pilot to select a weapon and view its firing parameters.

It's a pretty ingenious solution for a complicated and sensitive problem because Turkey only has access to the source codes for their Block 30 F-16s and a few of the Block 40s that their test squadron flies that weren't upgraded under the CCIP program.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1669049372640698398

Turkish ammunition under the wings of the F-16 Fighting Falcon

Turkey has made significant progress in modernizing its F-16s with domestic resources. The project for an independent aircraft firing system is nearing its end.

bulgarianmilitary.com

How feasible is this? And could PAF benefit from it? @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD

 

[JamD]

How feasible is this? And could PAF benefit from it? @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @JamD

The Ozgur may be a Turkish program but Turkey is still a NATO member and enjoys the ability to import and use a lot of things that the US will simply block for Pakistan. With that being said I'm sure we are pushing them for an ITAR free Ozgur.

 

[VkdIndian]

@CSAW you started this thread on a promising note.

However, it has turned into Turkey thread off late. You have lost your way and that is what @SQ8 pointed out in his comment about begaani shadi………

 

[python-000]

 

[CSAW]

@CSAW you started this thread on a promising note.

However, it has been turned into Turkey thread off late. You have lost your way and that is what @SQ8 pointed out in his comment about begaani shadi………

Fair Comment by you.

In another perspective - The Aerial Prowess of Pakistan largely depends upon Imports , although GIDS has announced Projects such as FAAZ-II BVR etc. PAF has some ongoing Projects but largely the the sources would be Turkiye and China and systems of interest for Potential PAF integration would be :

- Akinci
- TB-2
- Bozdogan
- Gokhan Ram jet BVR
- KAAN or MMU
- Ozgur F-16
- AtaK - I & II
- SIPER
etc

Hence the Turkish weapons system development subjects are inter linked with the purpose of Thread.
May have gone over board with it.

On Indian side - Apart from French Rafale - M ,S-400 etc - Many related projects are indigenous on which a debate of rate of progress may be done but are announced surely and were reported / discussed.

As a case in point if this is posted

https://twitter.com/x/status/1670333673617629184

Does it have any bearing on balance of Power btw India and Pakistan or its a vague post ?

---------------------------------------------------------

Hence from my perspective - the comment was not a valid one and the 'method of commenting' could have certainly improved.
Professional forums are turned into a statement of what we as humans & society has become in general...!

At my age having passed over 3 decades Learning the trade -The involvement , advice, criticism, difference of opinion from various generations are always welcomed.

Anyway appreciate your input.

Have a nice day

 

[VkdIndian]

Hence the Turkish weapons system development subjects are inter linked with the purpose of Thread.

It’s true that Pakistan depends on imports but only those weapon systems that are likely to be imported, have a significance towards this thread. It is unlikely that Pakistan will procure each and every Turkish weapon.
I suggest that posters restrict themselves to only the weapons likely to be inducted by both the countries. It is better to have fewer comments and posts that add value to this thread rather than irrelevant posts.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The Ozgur may be a Turkish program but Turkey is still a NATO member and enjoys the ability to import and use a lot of things that the US will simply block for Pakistan. With that being said I'm sure we are pushing them for an ITAR free Ozgur.

The issue with the Ozgur is that its most crucial part is literally the F-16. So, IMO, the U.S. will put a block on upgrading those fighters via a 3rd party like Turkiye. That said, I think there might be a chance to study a JF-17 upgrade based on the Ozgur; this may be a neat way of offering the likes of Argentina, Azerbaijan and others a 'Westernized' JF-17.

 

[Falcon26]

The issue with the Ozgur is that its most crucial part is literally the F-16. So, IMO, the U.S. will put a block on upgrading those fighters via a 3rd party like Turkiye. That said, I think there might be a chance to study a JF-17 upgrade based on the Ozgur; this may be a neat way of offering the likes of Argentina, Azerbaijan and others a 'Westernized' JF-17.

Can you still put a block even if the source codes aren’t required? So basically, Pakistan doesn’t actually own these planes?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Can you still put a block even if the source codes aren’t required?

It's not so much about the technical limitations, but the political and foreign relations ramifications for both Turkiye and Pakistan. While the Turks are working to secure their supply channel, they depend on the US for trade and investment. Ditto for Pakistan, and we're in an even more sensitive spot given our total economic failure. So, neither side is willing to upset the U.S. on this matter.

That said, I don't think the U.S. will stop the PAF from upgrading the F-16s because, in the end, there isn't much to worry about.

First, I don't think the PAF would upgrade the F-16A/Bs. Those airframes are old and will reach the end of their lives by the 2040s. There's no new SLEP for those aircraft either. I think the PAF would prefer to replace them with an NGFA like the Kaan.

Second, the U.S. has likely blocked the PAF from acquiring any used F-16C/Ds (that can undergo a 6,000-hour SLEP). So, there's no runway for the PAF to suddenly add lots of advanced F-16s.

Third, any talk of upgrading the F-16s will likely be confined to the 18 Block-52+.

Letting those birds undergo the Ozgur or even F-16V upgrade isn't going to alter the balance of the region. If the U.S. approves the F-16V upgrade, it can keep PAF AHQ's doors open as opposed to being entirely shut. The U.S. has quietly approved key inputs for the PN's programs and, interestingly, even for the PAF (e.g., TPS-77).

 

[JamD]

Can you still put a block even if the source codes aren’t required? So basically, Pakistan doesn’t actually own these planes?

The thing is that Turkey operates in a very different ITAR environment than Pakistan. This means a lot of their inputs are ITAR, however innocuous. But to be able to continue to buy them for themselves, they can't get sanctioned in order to do a few Ozgurs for Pakistan. The same issue would apply to a JF17 Ozgur. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

PAF IS pushing for an ITAR free Ozgur that they can pursue. Who knows where it'll go.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

That said, I think there might be a chance to study a JF-17 upgrade based on the Ozgur; this may be a neat way of offering the likes of Argentina, Azerbaijan and others a 'Westernized' JF-17.

We should try a "Pakistanized" version of JF 17 :
JF 17 with
Taimoor ALCM for ground & sea strike
FAAZ-2 BVR
IREK series guided & longe range bombs
Possibly;
AESA radar
EW/ECM suit
Anti Radiation Missile

JF 17 with these indigenous systems/subsystems should be developed and marketed
Some of these systems/subsystems are already developed,some are needed to be developed.
It can be called JF 17 P1,
P2 ..........

The same issue would apply to a JF17 Ozgur. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

PAF IS pushing for an ITAR free Ozgur that they can pursue. Who knows where it'll go.

 

[Ali_Baba]

We should try a "Pakistanized" version of JF 17 :
JF 17 with
Taimoor ALCM for ground & sea strike
FAAZ-2 BVR
IREK series guided & longe range bombs
Possibly;
AESA radar
EW/ECM suit
Anti Radiation Missile

JF 17 with these indigenous systems/subsystems should be developed and marketed
Some of these systems/subsystems are already developed,some are needed to be developed.
It can be called JF 17 P1,
P2 ..........

Pakistan may be moving towards that on a parallel track - the only thing missing from the above list is the mission computer to tie all the systems together (but since Pakistan has the source code for the jf17 entirely - it may well feel it can paint that green and call it pakistani .. )

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The thing is that Turkey operates in a very different ITAR environment than Pakistan. This means a lot of their inputs are ITAR, however innocuous. But to be able to continue to buy them for themselves, they can't get sanctioned in order to do a few Ozgurs for Pakistan. The same issue would apply to a JF17 Ozgur. @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

PAF IS pushing for an ITAR free Ozgur that they can pursue. Who knows where it'll go.

IMO...any PAF F-16 upgrade will come from the U.S., especially for the C/Ds. ITAR-free Ozgur is probably a JF-17 thing.