Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[Armchair]

Totally fan boy stuff

We have a senior and well-respected poster on PDF who has said so. I'm sure he too would be a fanboy to you, since that's the depth of your intellect.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/introducing-jf-17-thunder-block-ii.382544/page-9#post-8427665

Here is a hint. If you do your own research, you will find the proverbial golden goose. But I don't spoon-feed people incapable of research and polite conversation.

I find it pretty hard to believe PAF has Mirages that have been rebuilt multiple times yet it has not done structural upgrades to improve performance. Only avionics and system upgrades in the form of ROSE program.

There were so many possibilities the Atar-9C (60.8kn) engines could have been updated/swapped to the much more fuel efficient, robust and easier to maintain Atar-9K50 (70.6 kN) just as the Swedish Mirage 3 Milan. The South Africans even manage to upgrade their Mirage F-1s with RD-93s. Found an old article in which Israel offered to upgrade Mirage 3/5s for customers with the GE404 engine from the F-18 and JAS-39 Gripen. Even in it's own inventory Israel is rumored to have re engined it's Mirage 3Cs with J79 engines (83.4 kN). An aircraft goes through several engines in it's life time, PAF has been operating and will continue to operate them for a considerable time so it would have saved maintenance costs by switching to a better engine.

Brazilian & Portuguese got the Mirage 3NG upgrades (also Atar 9K-50 powered) which added leading edge trailing flaps, FBW and several systems bringing it close to the Mirage-2000.
https://dave-llamaman.deviantart.com/art/Portuguese-Mirage-3NG-625544162

Swedish Mirage 3s had fixed canards added to increase lift and lower required runway lengths. Added drag sacrificed acceleration and speed which they made up with rocket boosters. They also had additional lift hook points on the aircrafts so they can be lifted by crane and moved inside their mountain shelters.

PAF had loads of options and with older parts availability an issue it could have modernized them better. R&D for the updates had already been done by the OEM. Cost wouldn't have been a major issue as they could have been carried out at rebuilds or engine replacement intervals. At least the re engining to Atar 9K-50 should have been carried out. Israel is still offering Kfir upgrades in the form of Kfir Block-60 adding a AESA radar and modernization to match modern warfare requirements. The Kfir Block-60 is in fact eyeing some of the same potential customers as PAC is working for JF-17 as an even cheaper option.

So either there was short sightedness or PAF is keeping us in he dark about the extent of upgrades on the Mirages.

Update: According to wikipedia PAF Mirages equipped with Grifo-M have been updated to carry the PL-12/SD-10.

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Very interesting and well-written post, as usual from you Shabi1. But do you have any more information on the current BVR on the Mirages? Given the number of AMRAAMs bought, it would suggest PAF may have them on the Mirages as well as the F-16s. AAMs have about a decade of shelf-life. R-Darters in that case are probably phased out by now from the Mirage fleet. Unless the missiles where rebuilt.

 

[denel]

When the PAF was looking for a lightweight fighter to complement the F-16 (late 1980s), Dassault had offered to shift the Mirage F-1 production line to PAC. Imagine if that had been there ... coupled with South Africa's work on the Cheetah and Russia's RD-93 turbofan engine...

Absolutely; that was a golden time which would have brought in a new dimension. I remember at Altas we were very keen to move forward but it never materialised. There was a lot of promise - for example, other countries would have easily come over to have their aircrafts converted over. When IAI is now refurbishing older Kfirs in Block60 from that time frame shows there is a market out there still. For example what is not generally known is all our F1s were having hms; whilst Cheetahs already did have them by default.

 

[mzeeshanfahd]

When the PAF was looking for a lightweight fighter to complement the F-16 (late 1980s), Dassault had offered to shift the Mirage F-1 production line to PAC. Imagine if that had been there ... coupled with South Africa's work on the Cheetah and Russia's RD-93 turbofan engine...

so what stopped them from shifting the line ...... there must be some alternate logic .... or was it plane treachery ..... a zardari/noora in uniform ....

 

[salman-1]

Price must have been the major factor as French are the most expensive sellers in world. Jf17 was just allocated $500 million in all for the final product. French might have asked more than that for just copy rights or licence. Production line separate in billions.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

so what stopped them from shifting the line ...... there must be some alternate logic .... or was it plane treachery ..... a zardari/noora in uniform ....

They took an alternate route ... Sabre II (aka upgraded F-7), which collapsed and resulted in CAC offering the PAF a new design in the Super-7 (i.e. JF-17).

 

[The Accountant]

We have a senior and well-respected poster on PDF who has said so. I'm sure he too would be a fanboy to you, since that's the depth of your intellect.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/introducing-jf-17-thunder-block-ii.382544/page-9#post-8427665

Here is a hint. If you do your own research, you will find the proverbial golden goose. But I don't spoon-feed people incapable of research and polite conversation.




Very interesting and well-written post, as usual from you Shabi1. But do you have any more information on the current BVR on the Mirages? Given the number of AMRAAMs bought, it would suggest PAF may have them on the Mirages as well as the F-16s. AAMs have about a decade of shelf-life. R-Darters in that case are probably phased out by now from the Mirage fleet. Unless the missiles where rebuilt.

You must be kidding ... You are claiming that an aircraft 50 years old is modified with RAM (the tech with which Pakistan haa no access) and rcs is reduced and i am supposed to believe that ... I am not a fanboy ... There is no senior professional guy that can claim such stupidity ... Mirrage specializes in low flying i.e. flying below radar horizon and thats how they avoid radar derection ... This is the role of mirrage in PAF ... I.e. low flying and sneak into enemy territory and strike ... Otherwise its radar is pathtic and way too old and short ranged too ... There is no way that you can convert that old aircraft into bvr capable as it is not even suitable to WVR fights ...

If you think i am being rude than i am sorry but telling the truth is not rudness ...

 

[Armchair]

You must be kidding ... You are claiming that an aircraft 50 years old is modified with RAM (the tech with which Pakistan haa no access) and rcs is reduced and i am supposed to believe that ... I am not a fanboy ... There is no senior professional guy that can claim such stupidity ... Mirrage specializes in low flying i.e. flying below radar horizon and thats how they avoid radar derection ... This is the role of mirrage in PAF ... I.e. low flying and sneak into enemy territory and strike ... Otherwise its radar is pathtic and way too old and short ranged too ... There is no way that you can convert that old aircraft into bvr capable as it is not even suitable to WVR fights ...

If you think i am being rude than i am sorry but telling the truth is not rudness ...

It has nothing to do with me, it has been stated by senior posters on this forum. If you think they are liars that's up to you to believe or disbelieve. Just learn to disagree in an appropriate manner. We are all here to learn. PS: looks like you didn't even bother to look at the link, judging by the reply you wrote.

They took an alternate route ... Sabre II (aka upgraded F-7), which collapsed and resulted in CAC offering the PAF a new design in the Super-7 (i.e. JF-17).

The bigger boat that PAF missed was the F-20 Tigershark. That was being given at bargain basement prices, production line and all. PAF chose the F-16s instead. F-20 was basically a JF-17. Would have given PAF the production capability in the 1980s.

 

[AMG_12]

It has nothing to do with me, it has been stated by senior posters on this forum. If you think they are liars that's up to you to believe or disbelieve. Just learn to disagree in an appropriate manner. We are all here to learn. PS: looks like you didn't even bother to look at the link, judging by the reply you wrote.


The bigger boat that PAF missed was the F-20 Tigershark. That was being given at bargain basement prices, production line and all. PAF chose the F-16s instead. F-20 was basically a JF-17. Would have given PAF the production capability in the 1980s.

Anyone can be a senior on this forum, you're promoted on the basis of numbers, not credibility..

 

[Armchair]

Anyone can be a senior on this forum, you're promoted on the basis of numbers, not credibility..

There are posters here who are considered senior not because of the automated forum ranking but because of who they are. People for instance, like Oscar who has a long history of posting and is known to have been involved in military R&D. And so many others. I'm not here to babysit you, so this will be my last response to the kids on this thread.

 

[khanasifm]

Lenardo had Grifo M5 for mirage 5 but paf never went for it not sure why ??

It’s not true that nose of mirage 5 was too small compared to mirage 3 for a decent full scan radar vs a ranging radar which most 5 version had infact M5 was larger Antena 51 cm vs 47 for M3

May be required extensive mod plus more $$$

 

[The Accountant]

It has nothing to do with me, it has been stated by senior posters on this forum. If you think they are liars that's up to you to believe or disbelieve. Just learn to disagree in an appropriate manner. We are all here to learn. PS: looks like you didn't even bother to look at the link, judging by the reply you wrote.


The bigger boat that PAF missed was the F-20 Tigershark. That was being given at bargain basement prices, production line and all. PAF chose the F-16s instead. F-20 was basically a JF-17. Would have given PAF the production capability in the 1980s.

Brother you posted about a rumour and i said its fan boy stuff ... How is it disrespectful? You can share the link of the quote stating that mirrage was ram quoted and i will enquire with that senior directly the source of info ...

Regarding the link you shared it is all about thunder and i completely agree with that post but cant agree that mirrage was RAM quoted ...

If it is about agree to disagree then same goes for you ...

 

[denel]

Lenardo had Grifo M5 for mirage 5 but paf never went for it not sure why ??

It’s not true that nose of mirage 5 was too small compared to mirage 3 for a decent full scan radar vs a ranging radar which most 5 version had infact M5 was larger Antena 51 cm vs 47 for M3

May be required extensive mod plus more $$$

View attachment 479146

The nose of Mirage 5 can and was replaced as part of the evolution from Nesher to Kfir program with a Elta's radar.

 

[araz]

It has nothing to do with me, it has been stated by senior posters on this forum. If you think they are liars that's up to you to believe or disbelieve. Just learn to disagree in an appropriate manner. We are all here to learn. PS: looks like you didn't even bother to look at the link, judging by the reply you wrote.


The bigger boat that PAF missed was the F-20 Tigershark. That was being given at bargain basement prices, production line and all. PAF chose the F-16s instead. F-20 was basically a JF-17. Would have given PAF the production capability in the 1980s.

Interesting thought but in our development cycle were we capable of adopting and integrating the technologies required for a productive outcome. Remember that at that time we chose 16s instead of the F20. Also interesting to explore what the US would actually have offered us. There was also news of the US Offering to shift the 16s assembly over to us. But again unsubstantiated. I think there has been a trust deficit in the Pak-US relationship which has not allowed us to take that step. The French were a better bet but the 1977 back down from supplying us a Nuke reprocessing plant put an end to that as well plus the french charge heavily for their products as well as spares issues. I think PAF has only gone down the route as China has improved its commodities to a sufficient level and the price vs quality equilibrium suits the Pak defence establishment plus the trust between the 2 nations.
A

 

[MastanKhan]

It has nothing to do with me, it has been stated by senior posters on this forum. If you think they are liars that's up to you to believe or disbelieve. Just learn to disagree in an appropriate manner. We are all here to learn. PS: looks like you didn't even bother to look at the link, judging by the reply you wrote.


The bigger boat that PAF missed was the F-20 Tigershark. That was being given at bargain basement prices, production line and all. PAF chose the F-16s instead. F-20 was basically a JF-17. Would have given PAF the production capability in the 1980s.

Hi,

I did not want to say it openly---but to support you---I have to say it---.

Yes it happened---.

An enemy agent would disagree vehemently to make you confirm what you stated---.

It was the F1 mirage that would be the best bang for he buck for Pakistan---.

 

[GriffinsRule]

When the PAF was looking for a lightweight fighter to complement the F-16 (late 1980s), Dassault had offered to shift the Mirage F-1 production line to PAC. Imagine if that had been there ... coupled with South Africa's work on the Cheetah and Russia's RD-93 turbofan engine...

While the Mirage F-1 would have been a better aircraft, we don't know much about the associated costs. It might have been ostentatious and hence why PAF went for the cheaper route trying to develop the Super 7 concept.

As for the upgrade akin what South Africans did with the RD-33, it would not have been possible at all since Pakistan was firmly in the US camp and in fact openly hostile to USSR.

As for the upgrade revolving around the Atar 9K-50, it would have been a lot more sensible, however, a few questions arise that should be considered first. PAC Kamra established the Atar 09C Engine Overhaul Wing in 1982, 4 years after establishing the MRF in 1978. Now, if you are in PAF, would it make sense to now try to completely change the engine across its fleet in the same decade after investing in infrastructure? That would have been scandalous to the extreme and totally inefficient use of funds.
The second question would be, are Mirage 3/5 considered under powered by the PAF for there to be a reason for an engine change to begin with? Maybe the change in thrust did not justify the extra expense?