Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[denel]

While the Mirage F-1 would have been a better aircraft, we don't know much about the associated costs. It might have been ostentatious and hence why PAF went for the cheaper route trying to develop the Super 7 concept.

As for the upgrade akin what South Africans did with the RD-33, it would not have been possible at all since Pakistan was firmly in the US camp and in fact openly hostile to USSR.

As for the upgrade revolving around the Atar 9K-50, it would have been a lot more sensible, however, a few questions arise that should be considered first. PAC Kamra established the Atar 09C Engine Overhaul Wing in 1982, 4 years after establishing the MRF in 1978. Now, if you are in PAF, would it make sense to now try to completely change the engine across its fleet in the same decade after investing in infrastructure? That would have been scandalous to the extreme and totally inefficient use of funds.
The second question would be, are Mirage 3/5 considered under powered by the PAF for there to be a reason for an engine change to begin with? Maybe the change in thrust did not justify the extra expense?

I do recall reports that Mr Mushraf was looking to procure 2nd hand F1s during his tenure as well; I dont know what changed but it would have easily replaced a lot of the older Mirage 3s.
Anyway an entire decade was wasted by indecision and vested interests.

 

[MastanKhan]

so what stopped them from shifting the line ...... there must be some alternate logic .... or was it plane treachery ..... a zardari/noora in uniform ....

Hi,

You should get it by now---the treachery was not from the politicians----it was from the PAF---.

The F16 provided lucrative jobs in the 'present of that time' and future for the Paf officers---. Many got attached to GD / Lockmart---.

One of our most respectable member here was also a ------ ---. He ---- pakistan for his personal benefit---.

Mirage F1 would not have provided any foreign jobs for the Paf retiree officers---as did the F16's. Not many countries flew F1---.

God has given you people brains---use it---think about it---France is a super power---standing alone---developing its war machine on its own---.

It Mirage 3 / 5 were tier 1 aircraft of their time---then why would this country produce a lesser aircraft---.

The F1 was an extremely superior aircraft---just because the Mirage 2000 came into being did not mean that Mirage F1 had no value---those who say that are lying topakistan.

Our current aircraft the JF17 BLK is of the same capability as the Mirage F1 was---.

The more I look deeper into it---the more I believe---that the Paf never had any intentions of becoming a strong air force to challenge the indian air force---after the 1965 war---.

Paf heirarchy learnt to just trundle along and find ways to make money---.

 

[Armchair]

Hi,

You should get it by now---the treachery was not from the politicians----it was from the PAF---.

The F16 provided lucrative jobs in the 'present of that time' and future for the Paf officers---. Many got attached to GD / Lockmart---.

One of our most respectable member here was also a ------ ---. He ---- pakistan for his personal benefit---.

Mirage F1 would not have provided any foreign jobs for the Paf retiree officers---as did the F16's. Not many countries flew F1---.

God has given you people brains---use it---think about it---France is a super power---standing alone---developing its war machine on its own---.

It Mirage 3 / 5 were tier 1 aircraft of their time---then why would this country produce a lesser aircraft---.

The F1 was an extremely superior aircraft---just because the Mirage 2000 came into being did not mean that Mirage F1 had no value---those who say that are lying topakistan.

Our current aircraft the JF17 BLK is of the same capability as the Mirage F1 was---.

The more I look deeper into it---the more I believe---that the Paf never had any intentions of becoming a strong air force to challenge the indian air force---after the 1965 war---.

Paf heirarchy learnt to just trundle along and find ways to make money---.

MK what about the F-20 Tigershark? Grumman was never good with politics or offering lucrative job and it really cost it. But at that time, in the 80s, they were openly willing to sell their production line. F-20 was a beast of an aircraft. The grandfather of the Gripen / JFT / FCK-1

 

[salman-1]

As far as I remember Mirage F-1 were a back up plan if thunder program fails or drop, due to non availability of engines or other key parts.

 

[The Accountant]

As far as I remember Mirage F-1 were a back up plan if thunder program fails or drop, due to non availability of engines or other key parts.

What we are discussing here ia a scenario after 30 years ... Nobody knows back then that US will ditch us so bad ... In 80s f16 was a beast and india had no answere for that for 2 decades ... However the real treachery or stupidity was done in 2007 in purchasing block 52,,, despite having all the historical treachery od US,, pakistan still opted for block 52 ... Its criminal ...

Pakistan should have used that support money in buying some other equipments or transfer of tech ...

 

[MastanKhan]

What we are discussing here ia a scenario after 30 years ... Nobody knows back then that US will ditch us so bad ... In 80s f16 was a beast and india had no answere for that for 2 decades ... However the real treachery or stupidity was done in 2007 in purchasing block 52,,, despite having all the historical treachery od US,, pakistan still opted for block 52 ... Its criminal ...

Pakistan should have used that support money in buying some other equipments or transfer of tech ...

Hi,

We all old dogs knew that the U S will ditch in 10 years---our love affair has always been for roughly around a decade---so---if you did not know it---you must be very young at time---and there is nothing wrong with that---everyone has to grow up and learn in their age group---.

But to make a whitewash kind of general statement does not look good---.

All pakistan's sincere friends were advising Paf to not go for the 2nd batch of the F16's---they also warned of sanctions may happen---because the bill was put in multiple times---.

It was the Paf that has lied to Pakistanis--made Pakistani public angry at the US---created an animosity between the Pakistani public and the US by blatantly lying to the Pakistani public about the F16 fiasco---.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

While the Mirage F-1 would have been a better aircraft, we don't know much about the associated costs. It might have been ostentatious and hence why PAF went for the cheaper route trying to develop the Super 7 concept.

As for the upgrade akin what South Africans did with the RD-33, it would not have been possible at all since Pakistan was firmly in the US camp and in fact openly hostile to USSR.

As for the upgrade revolving around the Atar 9K-50, it would have been a lot more sensible, however, a few questions arise that should be considered first. PAC Kamra established the Atar 09C Engine Overhaul Wing in 1982, 4 years after establishing the MRF in 1978. Now, if you are in PAF, would it make sense to now try to completely change the engine across its fleet in the same decade after investing in infrastructure? That would have been scandalous to the extreme and totally inefficient use of funds.
The second question would be, are Mirage 3/5 considered under powered by the PAF for there to be a reason for an engine change to begin with? Maybe the change in thrust did not justify the extra expense?

Several PAF people who had flown the F-1s in Qatar said it was relatively underpowered.

However, some hoped Dassault would install the M53 along with the F2000 radar, avionics and weapons suite in the making (which the PAF later wanted for the JF-17). But with Dassault pushing for M2K sales, it wasn't going to make a potential (and lower cost) competitor out of the F1, so the M53 was out of the question.

The RD-33 (SMR-93) bit was more hindsight based. Though Pakistan had enmity with the Soviets, the Russia of the 1990s was desperate for cash, even if it meant selling stuff to Pakistan. That's when talks for the Su-27 began in earnest (albeit to put pressure on the US to release F-16s).

Had PAC possessed the F1 manufacturing line, it might have been able to solve the underpowered engine issue by seeking the SMR-93 from Russia, perhaps do a joint project to create a vastly and rebuilt F1 with South Africa through the 1990s.

But you can't fault them for that as in the late 1980s the Soviets were still around. I think the best time to have gotten the F1 was the late 1970s. As per WikiLeaks, the Carter Administration offered to help Pakistan get loans for it and the M2K to shore up its capabilities vs the Soviets in Afghanistan. This was before Reagan's liberalization of policy on restricting sensitive US tech to non-NATO states.

 

[denel]

Hi,

We all old dogs knew that the U S will ditch in 10 years---our love affair has always been for roughly around a decade---so---if you did not know it---you must be very young at time---and there is nothing wrong with that---everyone has to grow up and learn in their age group---.

But to make a whitewash kind of general statement does not look good---.

All pakistan's sincere friends were advising Paf to not go for the 2nd batch of the F16's---they also warned of sanctions may happen---because the bill was put in multiple times---.

It was the Paf that has lied to Pakistanis--made Pakistani public angry at the US---created an animosity between the Pakistani public and the US by blatantly lying to the Pakistani public about the F16 fiasco---.

Correct, we lived thru those earlier times. RSA - we were given the stick on every level including by the French; hence as a result we never use US equipment by its very default and charted a new course long ago. Unless there is a serious commitment it wont change, this story will repeat itself again.

 

[MastanKhan]

Several PAF people who had flown the F-1s in Qatar said it was relatively underpowered.

However, some hoped Dassault would install the M53 along with the F2000 radar, avionics and weapons suite in the making (which the PAF later wanted for the JF-17). But with Dassault pushing for M2K sales, it wasn't going to make a potential (and lower cost) competitor out of the F1, so the M53 was out of the question.

The RD-33 (SMR-93) bit was more hindsight based. Though Pakistan had enmity with the Soviets, the Russia of the 1990s was desperate for cash, even if it meant selling stuff to Pakistan. That's when talks for the Su-27 began in earnest (albeit to put pressure on the US to release F-16s).

Had PAC possessed the F1 manufacturing line, it might have been able to solve the underpowered engine issue by seeking the SMR-93 from Russia, perhaps do a joint project to create a vastly and rebuilt F1 with South Africa through the 1990s.

But you can't fault them for that as in the late 1980s the Soviets were still around. I think the best time to have gotten the F1 was the late 1970s. As per WikiLeaks, the Carter Administration offered to help Pakistan get loans for it and the M2K to shore up its capabilities vs the Soviets in Afghanistan. This was before Reagan's liberalization of policy on restricting sensitive US tech to non-NATO states.

Hi,

Thank you Bilal---. If you throw it against the wall---some of it would stick---and then others will come out with their knowledge of the truth---and when you join the strands---a bigger truth would come out---.

What was happening in the late 80's was that the Pakistani well wishers were telling Paf to go for the M2K's---.

That would stop the sanctions---why---because sanctions only work when you don't have the options---.

But then what would happen to the cushy jobs that the Paf senior officers had lined up with General Dynamics----!!!!

 

[bananarepublic]

Did people forget another opportunity Pakistan had in 2004 regarding mirage 4000 if Pakistan would have pushed saudia arabia then maybe Pakistan might have had its own equivalent of f15/su27 aircraft .
And at that time paf were in serious talks with the French to buy the rafele and we did not have any budgetary constraints too.

 

[denel]

Did people forget another opportunity Pakistan had in 2004 regarding mirage 4000 if Pakistan would have pushed saudia arabia then maybe Pakistan might have had its own equivalent of f15/su27 aircraft .
And at that time paf were in serious talks with the French to buy the rafele and we did not have any budgetary constraints too.

I doubt that very much. Mirage 4000 was a challenge to get off the ground in terms of feasibility and would have been extremely expensive. Remember even now 2 engine is met with resistance back in 2004 it would be a nono.

 

[ziaulislam]

What we are discussing here ia a scenario after 30 years ... Nobody knows back then that US will ditch us so bad ... In 80s f16 was a beast and india had no answere for that for 2 decades ... However the real treachery or stupidity was done in 2007 in purchasing block 52,,, despite having all the historical treachery od US,, pakistan still opted for block 52 ... Its criminal ...

Pakistan should have used that support money in buying some other equipments or transfer of tech ...

Block52 only costed 1.3 billion dollars ..a negligible investment...
Rest was weapons and update for older f16(no one should argue against that) all this(weapons+63 block52 upgrade and new) costed around 2.3 billion dollars only..you cant even buy 8 rafales for this money

I would argue the mistake was to ditch the original plan for acquiring 66 aircarfts(36 new and 30 old) at cost of 5 billion dollars to 18+18 and then never excercing the 18

This was done back of earthquake and mush was u under pressure from politicians to cut spending especially PPPP which was the majority party though not in govt

Than we saw what happened 2008-2013

There were several other deals in that era(2003_2008)..you got the Saab the p3 orion's frigates etc

 

[ziaulislam]

Financially Pakistan is stronger today than it was in 2003 ..this is fact though with some CAD issues today

 

[The Accountant]

Block52 only costed 1.3 billion dollars ..a negligible investment...
Rest was weapons and update for older f16(no one should argue against that) all this(weapons+63 block52 upgrade and new) costed around 2.3 billion dollars only..you cant even buy 8 rafales for this money

I would argue the mistake was to ditch the original plan for acquiring 66 aircarfts(36 new and 30 old) at cost of 5 billion dollars to 18+18 and then never excercing the 18

This was done back of earthquake and mush was u under pressure from politicians to cut spending especially PPPP which was the majority party though not in govt

Than we saw what happened 2008-2013

There were several other deals in that era(2003_2008)..you got the Saab the p3 orion's frigates etc

Agreed bro but whats the use of an aircraft which will be sanctioned in case of war has no realistic plans of upgrade and is attached woth strings ?

Aircrafts are for fighting wars and not for show ... We always know even right now the moment we have a war with india our spares anf ammunitions will be blocked so this 2.3 billion dollar investment is just for show ? 8 planes rather than 18 but free from strings and with future upgrade potential are better

Financially Pakistan is stronger today than it was in 2003 ..this is fact though with some CAD issues today

No bro 2003 was the year when we started booming ...

 

[ziaulislam]

Agreed bro but whats the use of an aircraft which will be sanctioned in case of war has no realistic plans of upgrade and is attached woth strings ?

Aircrafts are for fighting wars and not for show ... We always know even right now the moment we have a war with india our spares anf ammunitions will be blocked so this 2.3 billion dollar investment is just for show ? 8 planes rather than 18 but free from strings and with future upgrade potential are better


No bro 2003 was the year when we started booming ...

this is where you are right and wrong as well..

did we got sanctioned in last 15 years..NO..so you are wrong on account of sanctions, do we expect to get sanctioned during war, well not before the war is over(wont last more than couple of days), and probably not after the war is settled, and who knows whether we will have flying f16s left!

so ideally we shouldn't have gone for f16s but the decision was done in 1980s and if we wanted to go for another platefrom than 2.3 billion is not enough, you would need atleast 6-8 billion dollars..

as 2.3B this will only get you 8 rafales or even less if weapons are counted vs 63 f-16s (18+ 45 getting complete new look +weapons) both were similar platforms than before rafales got there AESA
there is no comaprsion, the decision is straight forward

now one can argue why did we brought more..but thing is we have been under IMF since 2008, poor policies and lack of structural reforms, if any reforms happened it happened under IMF, all credit of our development goes to IMF, our politicians ***w up things than IMF comes and correct things and cycle is repeated, be it privatization, taxation, liberalization, everything has been done under IMF...only this time IMF was laxed, otherwise you would have seen PIA, steel mills go away which ate 1 trillion rupees...

if concept of people is "agar khata hey tou lagata be hey" irrespective of party politics than what do you expect? in every country there is corruption but in this country there is clear disregard for a convict and complete disregard for corruption

IMF is blamed for inflation and austerity, but IMF usually wants to jump correct things in months as compared to years that are needed..yes IMF destroys economies in short run but if it doesnt come instead of destroyed you get a collapse

india is booming yet you dont see it trying to match china as it knows USSR didnt collapse due to war but failure of its social services and econmy

PS:
go look at your budget and purchasing power than and now, the economy has tripled since than