Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[Imran Khan]

only capabilities mirages left is enemy can see something flying other side of border .

 

[Armchair-General]

What is the RCS of the mirages.

 

[MastanKhan]

What is the RCS of the mirages.

Hi,

Lower than that of the F16's in clean config

 

[Armchair]

What is the RCS of the mirages.

There is a rumor of a specially RCS reduced Mirage that went into and came back from Indian airspace without detection. But this may have just been a test of the then technology.

RCS of M2K is a third of F-16.

Hi,

Lower than that of the F16's in clean config

 

[Armchair-General]

There is a rumor of a specially RCS reduced Mirage that went into and came back from Indian airspace without detection. But this may have just been a test of the then technology.

RCS of M2K is a third of F-16.

But isn't the mirage 3 made of older materials and design, so RCS should be larger than that of the mirage 2000.

 

[Cuirassier]

But isn't the mirage 3 made of older materials and design, so RCS should be larger than that of the mirage 2000.

Mirage 3 has 35m2 wing area while Mirage 2000 has 41m2 wing area,

 

[Cuirassier]

Thus it's in 1-2m2 range

 

[The Accountant]

There is a rumor of a specially RCS reduced Mirage that went into and came back from Indian airspace without detection. But this may have just been a test of the then technology.

RCS of M2K is a third of F-16.

Rumour

 

[AMG_12]

There is a rumor of a specially RCS reduced Mirage that went into and came back from Indian airspace without detection. But this may have just been a test of the then technology.

RCS of M2K is a third of F-16.

Probably a violation of airspace. They fly low and that's all the good they do when flying into enemy territory. Theres no such thing as low RCS Mirages. Please share the "source" of your rumor, if therest such thing at all. İf that's insider info then it's bs.

 

[Armchair]

Believe it or not, (I won't share where I got that information, its RUMINT not insider info), but I do know that PAF tested a Mirage with RCS reducing tiles (not RAM paint but RAM tiles) quite a while back. By now they probably use RAM paint (if I had to make an educated guess). They entered Indian airspace and flew back without the Indians ever being wiser.

But then if they carried weapons it would have been a different story as the external stores have RCS values of about 0.1-0.2 per AAM and more for larger stores.

 

[AMG_12]

Believe it or not, (I won't share where I got that information, its RUMINT not insider info), but I do know that PAF tested a Mirage with RCS reducing tiles (not RAM paint but RAM tiles) quite a while back. By now they probably use RAM paint (if I had to make an educated guess). They entered Indian airspace and flew back without the Indians ever being wiser.

But then if they carried weapons it would have been a different story as the external stores have RCS values of about 0.1-0.2 per AAM and more for larger stores.

Nothing of the sort ever happened, RUMINT = misinformation. I don't think you're aware how well monitored Indian Airspace is but sure, carry on with your theories and RUMINT. Have a goodnight.

 

[The Accountant]

Believe it or not, (I won't share where I got that information, its RUMINT not insider info), but I do know that PAF tested a Mirage with RCS reducing tiles (not RAM paint but RAM tiles) quite a while back. By now they probably use RAM paint (if I had to make an educated guess). They entered Indian airspace and flew back without the Indians ever being wiser.

But then if they carried weapons it would have been a different story as the external stores have RCS values of about 0.1-0.2 per AAM and more for larger stores.

Totally fan boy stuff

 

[Shabi1]

I find it pretty hard to believe PAF has Mirages that have been rebuilt multiple times yet it has not done structural upgrades to improve performance. Only avionics and system upgrades in the form of ROSE program.

There were so many possibilities the Atar-9C (60.8kn) engines could have been updated/swapped to the much more fuel efficient, robust and easier to maintain Atar-9K50 (70.6 kN) just as the Swedish Mirage 3 Milan. The South Africans even manage to upgrade their Mirage F-1s with RD-93s. Found an old article in which Israel offered to upgrade Mirage 3/5s for customers with the GE404 engine from the F-18 and JAS-39 Gripen. Even in it's own inventory Israel is rumored to have re engined it's Mirage 3Cs with J79 engines (83.4 kN). An aircraft goes through several engines in it's life time, PAF has been operating and will continue to operate them for a considerable time so it would have saved maintenance costs by switching to a better engine.

Brazilian & Portuguese got the Mirage 3NG upgrades (also Atar 9K-50 powered) which added leading edge trailing flaps, FBW and several systems bringing it close to the Mirage-2000.
https://dave-llamaman.deviantart.com/art/Portuguese-Mirage-3NG-625544162

Swedish Mirage 3s had fixed canards added to increase lift and lower required runway lengths. Added drag sacrificed acceleration and speed which they made up with rocket boosters. They also had additional lift hook points on the aircrafts so they can be lifted by crane and moved inside their mountain shelters.

PAF had loads of options and with older parts availability an issue it could have modernized them better. R&D for the updates had already been done by the OEM. Cost wouldn't have been a major issue as they could have been carried out at rebuilds or engine replacement intervals. At least the re engining to Atar 9K-50 should have been carried out. Israel is still offering Kfir upgrades in the form of Kfir Block-60 adding a AESA radar and modernization to match modern warfare requirements. The Kfir Block-60 is in fact eyeing some of the same potential customers as PAC is working for JF-17 as an even cheaper option.

So either there was short sightedness or PAF is keeping us in he dark about the extent of upgrades on the Mirages.

Update: According to wikipedia PAF Mirages equipped with Grifo-M have been updated to carry the PL-12/SD-10.

 

[denel]

I find it pretty hard to believe PAF has Mirages that have been rebuilt multiple times yet it has not done structural upgrades to improve performance. Only avionics and system upgrades in the form of ROSE program.

There were so many possibilities the Atar-9C (60.8kn) engines could have been updated/swapped to the much more fuel efficient, robust and easier to maintain Atar-9K50 (70.6 kN) just as the Swedish Mirage 3 Milan. The South Africans even manage to upgrade their Mirage F-1s with RD-93s. Found an old article in which Israel offered to upgrade Mirage 3/5s for customers with the GE404 engine from the F-18 and JAS-39 Gripen. Even in it's own inventory Israel is rumored to have re engined it's Mirage 3Cs with J79 engines (83.4 kN). An aircraft goes through several engines in it's life time, PAF has been operating and will continue to operate them for a considerable time so it would have saved maintenance costs by switching to a better engine.

Brazilian & Portuguese got the Mirage 3NG upgrades (also Atar 9K-50 powered) which added leading edge trailing flaps, FBW and several systems bringing it close to the Mirage-2000.
https://dave-llamaman.deviantart.com/art/Portuguese-Mirage-3NG-625544162

Swedish Mirage 3s had fixed canards added to increase lift and lower required runway lengths. Added drag sacrificed acceleration and speed which they made up with rocket boosters. They also had additional lift hook points on the aircrafts so they can be lifted by crane and moved inside their mountain shelters.

PAF had loads of options and with older parts availability an issue it could have modernized them better. R&D for the updates had already been done by the OEM. Cost wouldn't have been a major issue as they could have been carried out at rebuilds or engine replacement intervals. At least the re engining to Atar 9K-50 should have been carried out. Israel is still offering Kfir upgrades in the form of Kfir Block-60 adding a AESA radar and modernization to match modern warfare requirements. The Kfir Block-60 is in fact eyeing some of the same potential customers as PAC is working for JF-17 as an even cheaper option.

So either there was short sightedness or PAF is keeping us in he dark about the extent of upgrades on the Mirages.

Update: According to wikipedia PAF Mirages equipped with Grifo-M have been updated to carry the PL-12/SD-10.

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It is the former; it was short sighted and overall road map was never given consideration. If you look at Ecuador - they use both Cheetah and Kfir; you can see the significant advantages these platforms had. Just imagine if you had a complete fleet of 120+ Cheetahs running with rd-93's.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

It is the former; it was short sighted and overall road map was never given consideration. If you look at Ecuador - they use both Cheetah and Kfir; you can see the significant advantages these platforms had. Just imagine if you had a complete fleet of 120+ Cheetahs running with rd-93's.

When the PAF was looking for a lightweight fighter to complement the F-16 (late 1980s), Dassault had offered to shift the Mirage F-1 production line to PAC. Imagine if that had been there ... coupled with South Africa's work on the Cheetah and Russia's RD-93 turbofan engine...