Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[bananarepublic]

Imagine what the PAF could do with a bomb truck like this..
All those munitions and its light year jump from our Mirage's.
I am sure that PAF could adopt it as a stopgap and the Chinese would easily give us favourable terms.

 

[Marker]

And as we know, JH-7 and JH-7A don't have the in-flight refuelling capability, but why this:
View attachment 605206

The only reference which I could find is as follows:
http://errymath.blogspot.com/2014/12/jh-7b-flying-leopard-fighter-bomber.html#.XkQi7DEzbIU
Under the caption JH-7B, the author states that the new JH-7B added aerial refuel capabilities which greatly increases its combat radius. However new pictures of the JH-7B shows no changes of such nature.

Although wikipedia specs data mentions combat radius after in-flight refueling capability JH-7, but I could not find any JH-7 photo showing IFR probe to support it.

 

[LKJ86]

The only reference which I could find is as follows:
http://errymath.blogspot.com/2014/12/jh-7b-flying-leopard-fighter-bomber.html#.XkQi7DEzbIU
Under the caption JH-7B, the author states that the new JH-7B added aerial refuel capabilities which greatly increases its combat radius. However new pictures of the JH-7B shows no changes of such nature.

Although wikipedia specs data mentions combat radius after in-flight refueling capability JH-7, but I could not find any JH-7 photo showing IFR probe to support it.

JH-7B was designed to carry two YJ-12 AShMs, but it lost the competition with J-16. So, only about two prototypes of JH-7B were built.

 

[Zephyrus]

Umm hi, the only thing that makes the mirages deadly is the amount of RnD and mission specific systems that PAF has invested in them, you can not retire a platform that you haven't been able to replace for more than half a century, to be honest mirages fill a niche that can not be filled by any other aircraft. The JH7, PANAVIA TORNADO and other such aircraft might be easy to acquire but the problem is that they don't favor your doctrine as much as the mirage can, the best option is to redesign the mirage from the ground up with carbon fiber and newage materials, an uprated engine and newer weapons.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

Umm hi, the only thing that makes the mirages deadly is the amount of RnD and mission specific systems that PAF has invested in them, you can not retire a platform that you haven't been able to replace for more than half a century, to be honest mirages fill a niche that can not be filled by any other aircraft. The JH7, PANAVIA TORNADO and other such aircraft might be easy to acquire but the problem is that they don't favor your doctrine as much as the mirage can, the best option is to redesign the mirage from the ground up with carbon fiber and newage materials, an uprated engine and newer weapons.

Why can't u make JF 17 as a precise strike fighter? Modify it to increase its Payload and Ground Clearance

 

[LKJ86]

So is AVIC going to manufacture new JH-7Es for exports, or would it use PLAAF/PLAN stocks?

XAC, the manufacturer of JH-7, H-6, and Y-20, of course wants to make new JH-7Es for exports, as CAC and SAC have a monopolist’s grip on China's fighter market.

XAC repaired the damaged JH-7 outside the factory in 2019:

 

[denel]

Please refer wikipedia for complete specs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xi'an_JH-7

and also Global Security
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/jh-7-specs.htm

May I ask, how much a

Umm hi, the only thing that makes the mirages deadly is the amount of RnD and mission specific systems that PAF has invested in them, you can not retire a platform that you haven't been able to replace for more than half a century, to be honest mirages fill a niche that can not be filled by any other aircraft. The JH7, PANAVIA TORNADO and other such aircraft might be easy to acquire but the problem is that they don't favor your doctrine as much as the mirage can, the best option is to redesign the mirage from the ground up with carbon fiber and newage materials, an uprated engine and newer weapons.

Already Mirage ROSe platform is hopelessly out of date even in terms of the upgrades. Only way as you note is to rework it as a Cheetah or what ever you may call it. Alternatively get jh-7 for the deep strike component

 

[PakFactor]

May I ask, how much a

Already Mirage ROSe platform is hopelessly out of date even in terms of the upgrades. Only way as you note is to rework it as a Cheetah or what ever you may call it. Alternatively get jh-7 for the deep strike component

Might as well go for the J-16 for deep strike to replace the Mirages. This is a task for twin engine fighters speed will be needed to get out of zone after dropping the load.

 

[LKJ86]

Might as well go for the J-16 for deep strike to replace the Mirages. This is a task for twin engine fighters speed will be needed to get out of zone after dropping the load.

Why not wait for the dual-seat version of J-20.

 

[denel]

Might as well go for the J-16 for deep strike to replace the Mirages. This is a task for twin engine fighters speed will be needed to get out of zone after dropping the load.

Even mirages are now carriers for H2/H4 or other standoff; overhead deliver is no longer in play for this platform or jf-7s.

 

[PakFactor]

Why not wait for the dual-seat version of J-20.

Don’t think China would sell that to PAF.

 

[LKJ86]

JH-7B was designed to carry two YJ-12 AShMs, but it lost the competition with J-16. So, only about two prototypes of JH-7B were built.

JH-7B

Via 走进哈佛

Don’t think China would sell that to PAF.

China would want to sell J-20 to PAF, but it is not the right time now:
1. J-20 is very expensive now.
2. J-20 is still in development, but PAF prefers mature ones.
3. The number of J-20 still can't satisfy the needs of PLAAF and PLAN in a relative long period.

 

[Path-Finder]

I bought a few books to add to my collection and wanted to share a small section of it for all the Mirage lovers and our South African friend here @denel .
It also reminded me of what the Wing Commander Kaiser Tufail said in the Aircrew Interviews, when asked about PAF's performance, where all the countries that enlisted the help of our instructor pilots must have seen something in our performance viz-a-viz Indian Air Force.

Enjoy

-----
The Air Pockets
Accolades in South Africa - by Air Marshal Najeeb Akhtar

In early nineties, PAF had started looking for various hitherto untapped sources of armaments and weapons; among these was South Africa with which we did not have diplomatic relations. So, I flew to London aboard a normal PIA flight, acquired a ready made South African passport and traveled to Johannesburg on the South African carrier. During the visit, I was informed one evening that the South African Air Force Chief, a Brigadier wanted me to meet him. I immediately sat down and prepared some talking points, mainly on the PAF, for visit the next day.

When I arrived at the Air Force HQ, I was received with a friendly smile from the Brigadier. After a nice cup of coffee when I began to speak about the Pakistan Air Force, the Brigadier politely interrupted, saying he knew a lot about the PAF and so did all his pilots. I was surprised and wanted to know the reason for his air force knowing the PAF so well.

"Well you see", he spoke. "You know that we have been flying Mirages for a long time. About twenty years ago, we were involved in a war with Angola. The Angolan Air Force flew the Mig-21 Bis aircraft. We knew nothing about the tactics used by the Mig-21 Bis against the Mirages. We contacted the Americans and sent us their manual on fighting the Mig-21 Bis. Then we talked to the Israelis and they gave us a handwritten manual - titled, 'How a Mig-21 Bis ought to fight a Mirage'. It was authored by some unknown Pakistani pilot serving in Egypt for Syria. The write-up somehow fell into the hands of the Mossad, was handed over to the Israeli Air Force that adapted it in their fighter squadrons and they gave it to us. We also found it most useful and our pilots developed fighter tactics accordingly. . "You see, we know about your air force and pilots already". I felt tremendous joy at this compliment paid to an unknown colleague and to the Pakistan Air Force in that corner of the world.

The coffee had never tasted more delicious!
-------

another thing I learned is that SA was using drones for surveillance in the bush wars with angola and a tactic was devised by depleting the angolan SAM's using the seeker 200 drones before sending in the air cavalry.

 

[Marker]

Turbofans consume less vs turbojets.

Specific fuel consumption:

SNECMA Atar 9C

103 kg/(kN·h) 28.6g/(kN⋅s) (1.01 lb/(lbf·h)) military power
207 kg/(kN·h) 57.5 g/(kN⋅s) (2.03 lb/(lbf·h)) with afterburner

Rolls-Royce Spey Mk 202

0.63 lb/(lbf·h) at military thrust
1.95 lb/(lbf·h) with afterburner

Total SFC for single turbojet engine of Mirage

Military Power: 1.01 lb/(lbf·h)
With Afterburner: 2.03 lb/(lbf·h)

Total SFC for two turbofan engines of JH-7

Military Power: 2 x 0.63 lb/(lbf·h) = 1.26 lb/(lbf·h)
With Afterburner: 2 x 1.95 lb/(lbf·h) = 3.9 lb/(lbf·h)

The above data clearly shows that overall specific fuel consumption is higher for JH-7 (25% higher at mil and 109% higher with afterburner).

plus jh7 carries more fuel.

General characteristics

JH-7

Length: 22.32 m (73 ft 3 in); Length excl probe: 21.00 m (68 ft 10.75 in)
Wingspan: 12.8 m (42 ft 0 in)
Height: 6.22 m (20 ft 5 in)
Wing area: 42.2 m^2 (454 sq ft)
Empty weight: 14,500 kg (31,967 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 28,475 kg (62,777 lb)
Engine Thrust: 2 x (54.29 kN (12,200 lbf) thrust each dry, 91.26 kN (20,520 lbf) with afterburner)

Mirage V

Length: 15.55 m (51 ft 0 in)
Wingspan: 8.22 m (27 ft 0 in)
Height: 4.5 m (14 ft 9 in)
Wing area: 35 m^2 (380 sq ft)
Empty weight: 7,150 kg (15,763 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 13,700 kg (30,203 lb)
Engine Thrust: 41.97 kN (9,440 lbf) thrust dry, 60.8 kN (13,700 lbf) with afterburner

SNECMA Atar 9C

Length: 5,900 mm (232 in)
Diameter: 1,000 mm (39 in)

Rolls-Royce Spey Mk 202

Length: 204.9 in (5204.4 mm)
Diameter: 43.0 in (1092.2 mm)

Total fuel capacity estimation:

Although JH-7 fuselage length is about 6 m more than Mirage fuselage, but it has tandem cockpit.
However, since JH-7 houses two engines, it will be wider than Mirage fuselage (approximately 1.5:1 ratio).
Considering both factors, we can safely assume that fuel capacity of JH-7 fuselage is 50% more than Mirage fuselage.

Moreover, wing area of JH-7 is about 7 m^2 more than the wing area of Mirage. Hence, fuel capacity of JH-7 wing is approximately 20% more than Mirage wing.

Fuel capacity of JH-7 is 50-60% higher than Mirage.

Aerodynamics and weight are other two important factors which increase the fuel consumption. JH-7 is lacking in both of these factors.

Summing up the above conclusions, though JH-7 can carry 9000 kg payload, but its combat range is less, hence not suitable for deep strike missions.

PLAAF inducted JH-7 for CAS role only as they knew that it lacks air to air proficiency.
However, China is aggressively pursuing export of this aircraft (JH-7E) to other countries.

Furthermore, recent past trend and scrutiny of various statements of senior staff officers reveal that PAF is interested in inducting multi-role fighters. After light multi-role aircraft (JF-17), PAF will seek for medium weight multi-role aircraft either in the form of "Project Azm" or twin engine derivative of JF-17.

 

[TsAr]

@Marker Can we please keep this thread only for Mirages, this comparison thing with Jh-7 and etc needs to stop, we have a separate thread for JH-7 take your discussion there. @The Eagle can you please clean the thread.