Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[denel]

Apart from Egypt is there any other former operator from whom PAF could get parts/airframes?

Friend. Altas still makes wings on order and has jigs for airframes (Cheetah) and can make other parts as required. PAF was delivered new wings long back.
There is no other supplier except IAI and Atlas who can make these parts new.

 

[Path-Finder]

Friend. Altas still makes wings on order and has jigs for airframes (Cheetah) and can make other parts as required. PAF was delivered new wings long back.
There is no other supplier except IAI and Atlas who can make these parts new.

These mirages are still flying largely because of SA.

 

[denel]

These mirages are still flying largely because of SA.

yes, when i look at those birds - some part of me is still there and will be there after I am gone from this world.

I look back - i never thought it would be around this long, but that is life too

 

[PakFactor]

yes, when i look at those birds - some part of me is still there and will be there after I am gone from this world.

I look back - i never thought it would be around this long, but that is life too

How old are you?

 

[Marker]

I dont like going in circles, revert to post# 3027, second reply.

It all depends on the future of Mirages in PAF.

If PAF decides to maintain Mirages for a longer time, PAC AMF has the capability to provide spares for Mirage airframe structures including major bulkheads, plumbing, electrical harnesses, hinges, brackets and actuators.

Components used in hydraulic systems, landing gear systems, aircraft fuel system and cockpit environmental control system etc and not available any where, can be fabricated/reverse engineered at PAC with the help French, South African or Chinese expertise but of course creating such facilities will cost money.

As of today, PAC Kamara is fully capable to take up these ventures. Only deciding factor is availability of money and where PAF decides to spend.

Actual problem which PAF might be facing to maintain Mirage fleet is engine.

Non-availability of critical parts belonging to combustion chamber, turbine or even compressor might result in turning the engine into spares and making it ready for cannibalization.

Refer my following post (under the caption "A cheap solution to enhance air war capacity") where I already mentioned that SMR-95 a derivative of RD-33 can be used on Mirage III/V.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-1...h-9300kgf-thrust.193184/page-10#post-12027265

Options are available to maintain this fleet for a long time.

Considering the past experience, country's current economical situation and various statements of CAS and Senior Air staff officers, we can safely predict that PAF will opt to maintain these Mirages till 2030-35 (or may be less) and gradually replace them after replacing F-7s with JF-17s.

 

[khanasifm]

It all depends on the future of Mirages in PAF.

If PAF decides to maintain Mirages for a longer time, PAC AMF has the capability to provide spares for Mirage airframe structures including major bulkheads, plumbing, electrical harnesses, hinges, brackets and actuators.

Components used in hydraulic systems, landing gear systems, aircraft fuel system and cockpit environmental control system etc and not available any where, can be fabricated/reverse engineered at PAC with the help French, South African or Chinese expertise but of course creating such facilities will cost money.

As of today, PAC Kamara is fully capable to take up these ventures. Only deciding factor is availability of money and where PAF decides to spend.

Actual problem which PAF might be facing to maintain Mirage fleet is engine.

Non-availability of critical parts belonging to combustion chamber, turbine or even compressor might result in turning the engine into spares and making it ready for cannibalization.

Refer my following post (under the caption "A cheap solution to enhance air war capacity") where I already mentioned that SMR-95 a derivative of RD-33 can be used on Mirage III/V.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-1...h-9300kgf-thrust.193184/page-10#post-12027265

Options are available to maintain this fleet for a long time.

Considering the past experience, country's current economical situation and various statements of CAS and Senior Air staff officers, we can safely predict that PAF will opt to maintain these Mirages till 2030-35 (or may be less) and gradually replace them after replacing F-7s with JF-17s.

These 50 block 3 along with 26 dual seater and 12 block 2 in 2018 will replace all f-7s p and pg ie 4.5 sqn worth of aircraft f7 s in 3 pg and 1 f7p sqn and LIFt temp f7s

Next block say 4 and 5 will replace mirages 5/6 sqn ~100/120 or so

No need to keep ccs f7 and mirage ccs sqn

Unless a third type replaces few of mirage sqn but o doubt it after block 3

Expect jf-17 number to touch ~250 -275

 

[Path-Finder]

can't the engine in the mirage be replace with a decent turbofan?

 

[denel]

can't the engine in the mirage be replace with a decent turbofan?

It can.... we did already and all required plumbings is available to retrofit RM-33; it was even being offered 20 years ago.

https://www.flightglobal.com/russia/south-africa-to-offer-mirage-upgrades-/34163.article

https://www.pdsol.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/CS36_Mid-Air-Refueling-Tank-CG.pdf

This may help those trying to understand IFR and this is more or less what is onboard PAF's Mirages courtesy of Cheetah program as well as JF-17s.

 

[Deltadart]

It can.... we did already and all required plumbings is available to retrofit RM-33; it was even being offered 20 years ago.

https://www.flightglobal.com/russia/south-africa-to-offer-mirage-upgrades-/34163.article

https://www.pdsol.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/CS36_Mid-Air-Refueling-Tank-CG.pdf

This may help those trying to understand IFR and this is more or less what is onboard PAF's Mirages courtesy of Cheetah program as well as JF-17s.

Denel, seems like we keep going in circles on this particular thread. All the points have been discussed in the previous 3000 posts.
So anyone new joining this discussion should go back to the beginning of this thread and you will have all your questions answered.

 

[denel]

Denel, seems like we keep going in circles on this particular thread. All the points have been discussed in the previous 3000 posts.
So anyone new joining this discussion should go back to the beginning of this thread and you will have all your questions answered.

Correct; these have been discussed earlier to great lengths .

can't the engine in the mirage be replace with a decent turbofan?

Frankly the best alternative for dedicated strike platform is Jh7 for replacement of Mirage 3. History may prove myself or my dear friend @MastanKhan who strongly believe this is much needed.

 

[khanasifm]

If I am not mistaken after f-16 debacle of 90s per paf book 2013 paf evaluated / tested all available options from China including f-8 not remember if Jh-7 was available and tested need to check the book again but all available mean all available but it did not meet paf requirements

End of story [emoji6]

 

[denel]

If I am not mistaken after f-16 debacle of 90s per paf book 2013 paf evaluated / tested all available options from China including f-8 not remember if Jh-7 was available and tested need to check the book again but all available mean all available but it did not meet paf requirements

End of story [emoji6]

There is always a wish

 

[GriffinsRule]

I bought a few books to add to my collection and wanted to share a small section of it for all the Mirage lovers and our South African friend here @denel .
It also reminded me of what the Wing Commander Kaiser Tufail said in the Aircrew Interviews, when asked about PAF's performance, where all the countries that enlisted the help of our instructor pilots must have seen something in our performance viz-a-viz Indian Air Force.

Enjoy

-----
The Air Pockets
Accolades in South Africa - by Air Marshal Najeeb Akhtar

In early nineties, PAF had started looking for various hitherto untapped sources of armaments and weapons; among these was South Africa with which we did not have diplomatic relations. So, I flew to London aboard a normal PIA flight, acquired a ready made South African passport and traveled to Johannesburg on the South African carrier. During the visit, I was informed one evening that the South African Air Force Chief, a Brigadier wanted me to meet him. I immediately sat down and prepared some talking points, mainly on the PAF, for visit the next day.

When I arrived at the Air Force HQ, I was received with a friendly smile from the Brigadier. After a nice cup of coffee when I began to speak about the Pakistan Air Force, the Brigadier politely interrupted, saying he knew a lot about the PAF and so did all his pilots. I was surprised and wanted to know the reason for his air force knowing the PAF so well.

"Well you see", he spoke. "You know that we have been flying Mirages for a long time. About twenty years ago, we were involved in a war with Angola. The Angolan Air Force flew the Mig-21 Bis aircraft. We knew nothing about the tactics used by the Mig-21 Bis against the Mirages. We contacted the Americans and sent us their manual on fighting the Mig-21 Bis. Then we talked to the Israelis and they gave us a handwritten manual - titled, 'How a Mig-21 Bis ought to fight a Mirage'. It was authored by some unknown Pakistani pilot serving in Egypt for Syria. The write-up somehow fell into the hands of the Mossad, was handed over to the Israeli Air Force that adapted it in their fighter squadrons and they gave it to us. We also found it most useful and our pilots developed fighter tactics accordingly. . "You see, we know about your air force and pilots already". I felt tremendous joy at this compliment paid to an unknown colleague and to the Pakistan Air Force in that corner of the world.

The coffee had never tasted more delicious!
-------

 

[PakFactor]

I bought a few books to add to my collection and wanted to share a small section of it for all the Mirage lovers and our South African friend here @denel .
It also reminded me of what the Wing Commander Kaiser Tufail said in the Aircrew Interviews, when asked about PAF's performance, where all the countries that enlisted the help of our instructor pilots must have seen something in our performance viz-a-viz Indian Air Force.

Enjoy

-----
The Air Pockets
Accolades in South Africa - by Air Marshal Najeeb Akhtar

In early nineties, PAF had started looking for various hitherto untapped sources of armaments and weapons; among these was South Africa with which we did not have diplomatic relations. So, I flew to London aboard a normal PIA flight, acquired a ready made South African passport and traveled to Johannesburg on the South African carrier. During the visit, I was informed one evening that the South African Air Force Chief, a Brigadier wanted me to meet him. I immediately sat down and prepared some talking points, mainly on the PAF, for visit the next day.

When I arrived at the Air Force HQ, I was received with a friendly smile from the Brigadier. After a nice cup of coffee when I began to speak about the Pakistan Air Force, the Brigadier politely interrupted, saying he knew a lot about the PAF and so did all his pilots. I was surprised and wanted to know the reason for his air force knowing the PAF so well.

"Well you see", he spoke. "You know that we have been flying Mirages for a long time. About twenty years ago, we were involved in a war with Angola. The Angolan Air Force flew the Mig-21 Bis aircraft. We knew nothing about the tactics used by the Mig-21 Bis against the Mirages. We contacted the Americans and sent us their manual on fighting the Mig-21 Bis. Then we talked to the Israelis and they gave us a handwritten manual - titled, 'How a Mig-21 Bis ought to fight a Mirage'. It was authored by some unknown Pakistani pilot serving in Egypt for Syria. The write-up somehow fell into the hands of the Mossad, was handed over to the Israeli Air Force that adapted it in their fighter squadrons and they gave it to us. We also found it most useful and our pilots developed fighter tactics accordingly. . "You see, we know about your air force and pilots already". I felt tremendous joy at this compliment paid to an unknown colleague and to the Pakistan Air Force in that corner of the world.

The coffee had never tasted more delicious!
-------

This gave me a big smile, proud to be a Pakistani. The potential in our people is amazing we’re respected at least in the professional eyes of people defense related. Thank you sharing!

 

[Marker]

I bought a few books to add to my collection and wanted to share a small section of it for all the Mirage lovers and our South African friend here @denel .
It also reminded me of what the Wing Commander Kaiser Tufail said in the Aircrew Interviews, when asked about PAF's performance, where all the countries that enlisted the help of our instructor pilots must have seen something in our performance viz-a-viz Indian Air Force.

Enjoy

-----
The Air Pockets
Accolades in South Africa - by Air Marshal Najeeb Akhtar

In early nineties, PAF had started looking for various hitherto untapped sources of armaments and weapons; among these was South Africa with which we did not have diplomatic relations. So, I flew to London aboard a normal PIA flight, acquired a ready made South African passport and traveled to Johannesburg on the South African carrier. During the visit, I was informed one evening that the South African Air Force Chief, a Brigadier wanted me to meet him. I immediately sat down and prepared some talking points, mainly on the PAF, for visit the next day.

When I arrived at the Air Force HQ, I was received with a friendly smile from the Brigadier. After a nice cup of coffee when I began to speak about the Pakistan Air Force, the Brigadier politely interrupted, saying he knew a lot about the PAF and so did all his pilots. I was surprised and wanted to know the reason for his air force knowing the PAF so well.

"Well you see", he spoke. "You know that we have been flying Mirages for a long time. About twenty years ago, we were involved in a war with Angola. The Angolan Air Force flew the Mig-21 Bis aircraft. We knew nothing about the tactics used by the Mig-21 Bis against the Mirages. We contacted the Americans and sent us their manual on fighting the Mig-21 Bis. Then we talked to the Israelis and they gave us a handwritten manual - titled, 'How a Mig-21 Bis ought to fight a Mirage'. It was authored by some unknown Pakistani pilot serving in Egypt for Syria. The write-up somehow fell into the hands of the Mossad, was handed over to the Israeli Air Force that adapted it in their fighter squadrons and they gave it to us. We also found it most useful and our pilots developed fighter tactics accordingly. . "You see, we know about your air force and pilots already". I felt tremendous joy at this compliment paid to an unknown colleague and to the Pakistan Air Force in that corner of the world.

The coffee had never tasted more delicious!
-------

Thanks for sharing. A nice piece of writing by AM Najeeb Akhter.