Capabilities of PAF Dassault MIRAGE-III/V.

[Dazzler]

What about radar data? Can it also be shared?

Classified

 

[denel]

But we want you to comment more through.

Give us a little taste.

Not going to happen; so do not ask. Let us put it this way, if Feb surprise was good enough, it tells you there are a lot of things hidden under the covers.

 

[Signalian]

I think Mirage-V is more likely to suffer air frame fatigue from low level penetration for strike mission

Low level penetration, while tactically effective in relatively benign threat environments, has some important limitations. The first is that it incurs a significant penalty in combat radius, since turbojet and turbofan Specific Fuel Consumption is poor at low altitudes, and the higher air density requires higher thrusts be employed to achieve tactically useful airspeeds. Moreover, continuous manoeuvres to clear terrain impose a significant fatigue load on the airframe, and the aircrew, thus limiting airframe life and aircrew endurance in combat.

 

[Zephyrus]

Hi,

Strike aircraft have different kind of utility and level of performance when comparing to the air superiority fighter aircraft---.

For a fighter aircraft---you want something that is the best bang for the buck---.

But for a strike aircraft---you can use any flyable dog of a reasonable vintage as long as it has upgraded gadgets and EW suite---.

Mirage 3/5 is a perfect kind of aircraft for a Paf kind of airforce---for the strike missions it needs to perform---.

To top off its utility---the modern standoff weapons seems like have been created just for this aircraft---.

Amazing isn't it that when the americans were building the F16---they never thought of F16 be carrying standoff ALCM munitions---that is why it did not have a high clearance---the French on the other hand had some unique sense of utility for their mirage 3 / 5 aircraft that they have become a war horse of choice to carry the Hatf V111 ALCM---.

Then on the other hand---we have the B52 that has seen a new life to deliver these standoff weapons---the B1 bomber is also on the same course---.

Amazing that these 50 and 60 years old aircraft may well serve for another 20-30-40 years.

Nicely put sir, endorsed

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Perception is a frame of mind---. A race car cannot do the job of a Road Roller or a vice versa---but if the Road Roller does not do its job properly---a race car cannot drive on the surface---.

A marathon sprinter cannot say that the 100 meters sprinter is not of much value because he is done in 9.9 seconds---.

In a similar manner---if a low flying strike aircraft cannot do their job properly by flying low down to the ground and take out the enemy SA missiles sites---the high flying air superiority fighter may not be able to do its job properly---.

The utility of their flight and design is by default created to bear the adverse effects of flying low---and if in that process they see severe structural stress effects then that is a part and function of what they were created to perform---.

So---if the flight parameters is hugging the ground---then the aircraft is doing its routine / normal job and the wear and tear from that job is "normal"---.

 

[khanasifm]

MIRAGE III ORIGINS. * The Mirage III family grew out of French government studies begun in 1952 that led in early 1953 to a specification for a lightweight all-weather interceptor, capable of climbing to 18 kilometers (11.2 miles) in six minutes, with speed in level flight of Mach 1.3.

During that era shooting down Russian bombers /fighters was main mission

* The next major variant, the "Mirage 5", grew out of a request to Dassault from the IAF. Since the weather over the Mideast is clear and sunny most of the time, the Israelis suggested deleting all-weather avionics normally stored behind the cockpit from the standard Mirage IIIE to reduce cost and maintenance, and replacing the lost avionics with more fuel storage for the attack mission. In September 1966, the Israelis placed an order for 50 examples of the new aircraft.


Mirage 5 actually has/had 7 stations vs mirage 3, 5 stations and mirage 5 carry more fuel 300/400 kg more than mirage 3 equates to ~3300/3500 liters vs 3000 liters

I had asked why paf not adopted 7 station config on mirage 5 especially on ROSE

Answer ?? $$$$ the two additional stations were under intake next to the guns


http://www.airvectors.net/avmir3_1.html


The Mirage 5 retained the IIIE's twin DEFA guns, but added two additional pylons, for a total of seven.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_5

 

[Marker]

I think Mirage-V is more likely to suffer air frame fatigue from low level penetration for strike mission

View attachment 604242

Low level penetration, while tactically effective in relatively benign threat environments, has some important limitations. The first is that it incurs a significant penalty in combat radius, since turbojet and turbofan Specific Fuel Consumption is poor at low altitudes, and the higher air density requires higher thrusts be employed to achieve tactically useful airspeeds. Moreover, continuous manoeuvres to clear terrain impose a significant fatigue load on the airframe, and the aircrew, thus limiting airframe life and aircrew endurance in combat.

Service ceiling of Mirage V is 59000 ft.

PAF will utilize Mirage V mainly for CAS, coastal area and sea defense.

For CAS Mirage V can be equipped with H-2/4 SOWs whose ranges are about 60 and 120 kms and RAAD cruise missiles having range of 550 kms.

With these smart weapons Mirage V do not have to fly low level penetration strike to take down ground targets including Air Defense targets.

Low level penetration is only suitable for the targets deep inside the enemy border say 1000 or 1300 kms inside the enemy territory with thick air defense coverage.

Best strategy for PAF is to initially carry out SEAD missions within 100 to 200 kms inside the enemy territory then gradually expand the area of offensive operation to minimize PAF losses due to air defense weapons.

 

[Signalian]

Low level penetration is only suitable for the targets deep inside the enemy border say 1000 or 1300 kms inside the enemy territory with thick air defense coverage.

You have somewhat answered yourself the main purpose of Mirage-V in PAF.

 

[Marker]

You have somewhat answered yourself the main purpose of Mirage-V in PAF.

This strategy is not viable as it will cause excessive losses under current scenario.

Mirage V is not a stealth aircraft.

Possibility of detection even during low level strike is very high specially when India is armed with S-400s and other modern radars.

PAF have to extend its operation area gradually but of course very quickly and very efficiently!!!! This could be possible if PAF focuses on its operational readiness!!!!

 

[Signalian]

This strategy is not viable as it will cause excessive losses under current scenario.

Mirage V is not a stealth aircraft.

Possibility of detection even during low level strike is very high specially when India is armed with S-400s and other modern radars.

PAF have to extend its operation area gradually but of course very quickly and very efficiently!!!! This could be possible if PAF focuses on its operational readiness!!!!

Yes, Mirage V is not stealth, that why night time low level penetration and precision strike for upgraded ROSE II and ROSE III is considered.

 

[Marker]

Today's modern Air Forces strategy should be an intelligent and efficient application of of all available assets to optimize outcomes.

Yes, Mirage V is not stealth, that why night time low level penetration and precision strike for upgraded ROSE II and ROSE III is considered.

Yes, but they are visible on the modern radars including AEW&Cs during night strikes and bad weather as far as 1000+ kms depending on terrain and the kill zone of effective air defense (based on current Indian assets) starts from 40 kms to 400+ kms.

Now element of surprise will not be low level deep strike during night or bad weather. It should be continuous tossing of smart stand off weapons from comparative "safe" zone (BVR) and expanding the area of operation gradually.

 

[Signalian]

Today's modern Air Forces strategy should be an intelligent and efficient application of of all available assets to optimize outcomes.



Yes, but they are visible on the modern radars including AEW&Cs during night strikes and bad weather as far as 1000+ kms depending on terrain and the kill zone of effective air defense (based on current Indian assets) starts from 40 kms to 400+ kms.

Now element of surprise will not be low level deep strike during night or bad weather. It should be continuous tossing of smart stand off weapons from comparative "safe" zone (BVR) and expanding the area of operation gradually.

AWACS are not airborne all the time. 27th Feb 2019 is a witness to that. AD can be avoided through trajectory planning. Element of surprise is another topic.

So---if the flight parameters is hugging the ground---then the aircraft is doing its routine / normal job and the wear and tear from that job is "normal"---.

Mirage V has to be replaced. Production line was closed decades ago, spares are scarce even if available. There was a recent crash of ROSE Mirage-V. That leaves around 32 or 33 (ROSE II +III) in service now. Same situation that F-16 once faced in 1990's, when around 34 were available.

Three specialized squadrons are dependent on Mirage-V (8/25/27)

 

[Marker]

AWACS are not airborne all the time. 27th Feb 2019 is a witness to that. AD can be avoided through trajectory planning. Element of surprise is another topic.

What do you think, IAF will not revise its strategy!

They are already buying and integrating more of these assets.

After "formal" declaration of war PAF and IAF AEW&Cs will be in air 24/7.

Low level deep penetration night strikes is strategy of element of surprise.

PAF will carryout both day and night strikes.

However gaining element of surprise by carrying out Low level deep penetration night strikes is suicidal in presence of these modern radars and real time satellite coverage. (Indian Armed Forces do have such capabilities)

I will prefer to minimize losses of valuable assets during the conflict by utilizing them more efficiently and effectively.

SEAD/DEAD missions and taking out Command and Control air/sea/ground platforms should be the first priority of PAF.

AWACS are not airborne all the time. 27th Feb 2019 is a witness to that. AD can be avoided through trajectory planning. Element of surprise is another topic.



Mirage V has to be replaced. Production line was closed decades ago, spares are scarce even if available. There was a recent crash of ROSE Mirage-V. That leaves around 32 or 33 (ROSE II +III) in service now. Same situation that F-16 once faced in 1990's, when around 34 were available.

Three specialized squadrons are dependent on Mirage-V (8/25/27)

I will prefer not to discuss exact current configuration of PAF and IAF assets because we do not have such access. I will only speak my point of view based on available info in normal channels.

 

[DrWatson775]

What do you think, IAF will not revise its strategy!

They are already buying and integrating more of these assets.

After "formal" declaration of war PAF and IAF AEW&Cs will be in air 24/7.

Low level deep penetration night strikes is strategy of element of surprise.

PAF will carryout both day and night strikes.

However gaining element of surprise by carrying out Low level deep penetration night strikes is suicidal in presence of these modern radars and real time satellite coverage. (Indian Armed Forces do have such capabilities)

I will prefer to minimize losses of valuable assets during the conflict by utilizing them more efficiently and effectively.

SEAD/DEAD missions and taking out Command and Control air/sea/ground platforms should be the first priority of PAF.

Some time back someone did mention low level ground attack missions that were carried out in an exercise in modern EW/threats environment. The result was that they do work even with modern radars/SAMs if planned carefully. However there is a steady rate of attrition - likely due to modern terminal air defenses and better radars.

 

[aliyusuf]

The figure above shows the uncomfortable ride that the Mirage-III offers at low level high speed flight. Profile characteristics won't be much different for Mirage-Vs either. The 0.5g bumps per min will affect the crew efficiency and the airframe as well.