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Pakistan-A real market for the Mirage 2000-9 ?

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Why some people here think that M2k9 is better then F-16 50/52+ in strike capabilities, kind can someone compare both birds thoroughly?

Because the F-16s are better suited for Air defense role. If we get these Mirage dash nine's, it will empower our C/D/MLUs by taking away their burden from their current 'bombtruck' role. It means our Sixteens and Seventeens can defend the airspace while M2K-9s deliver the pounding.

Mirages were DESIGNED for the Strike role. Delta wings bleed more energy in ACM than the conventional designs like F-16s or JFTs.

Buying these 68 M2K-9s would be like buying 30 'new' BAE HAWKs, in terms of price, yet they'll add a big punch to PAF's Strike wing, especially when mated with RAAD ALCM or UAE's Black Shaheen rounds 'IF' they become surplus.
 
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Because the F-16s are better suited for Air defense role. If we get these Mirage dash nine's, it will empower our C/D/MLUs by taking away their burdon for the 'bombtruck' role.
Mirages were DESIGNED fir Strike role. Delta wings bleed more energy in ACM than conventional designs like F-16s.
Buying these 68 M2K-9s would be like buying 30 'new' BAE HAWKs, in terms of price, yet they'll add a big punch to PAF's Strike wing.

M2K9 may be a good strike fighter but it can not supersede F-16 in any role and the way NATO have used F-16 have showed that although M2Ks were also available to them.
 
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M2K9 may be a good strike fighter but it can not supersede F-16 in any role and the way NATO have used F-16 have showed that although M2Ks were also available to them.

No one is 'Disputing', the potency of SniperXP/JDAM/GBU combo.

The opinion is that our sixteens are more needed for defending our airspace. If M2K-9s take up their bombtruck role, it would mean more flight hours for our sixteens and Seventeens.

Our fleet order will look like this.

F/7PG Skybolt = OCU
JF-17/B-II/III = Point defense, 2nd tier air defense, stand off strike roles.

Mirage-2000-9 = Bomb Truck/CAS/Maritime strike defense vis a vis Mig-29K

F-16ADA = CU at MUSHAF
F-16C/D-MLU = Tier1 Air Superiority.
 
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No one is 'Disputing', the potency of SniperXP/JDAM/GBU combo.
The opinion is that our sixteens are more needed for defending our airspace. If M2K-9s take up their bombtruck role, it would mean more flight hours for our sixteens and Seventeens.
Our fleet order will look like this.
F/7PG Skybolt = OCU
JF-17/B-II/III = Point defense, 2nd tier air defense, stand off strike roles.
Mirage-2000-9 = Bomb Truck/CAS/Maritime strike defense vis a vis Mig-29K
F-16ADA = CU at MUSHAF
F-16C/D-MLU = Tier1 Air Superiority.

Can't we get more used F-16s and MLU them?? which will be much better option as there are much more F-16s built then M2Ks so spares will not be as big issue as may be with M2K?
 
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waste of money
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care to explain? need to explain clearly instead one sentence?
 
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Goodluck on the upkeep of M2K-9s. 9s will punch a hole through the budget.

21 pages and no one has talked about this.

Indeed French are difficult to deal with and have instances of being accomplice in corruption.

There are far more countries operating the F-16s than mirages; thus a larger base of spares , industry and engineers to make use of.
 
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Just a thought into your discussions re feasibility of acquiring these fighters.

I have read in the past that India gave very serious interest into buying these.

They where put off by the timelines of their availability.

In other words they Wil only be sold if and when the UAE Acquire the rafale fighters from France.

They wish to buy Sixty rafales.estimated delivery between is around 2018 and beyond.

In other words these mirsges are not available for some time yet. They are not redundant and in storage like the f16 you acquired
 
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21 pages and no one has talked about this.

Indeed French are difficult to deal with and have instances of being accomplice in corruption.

There are far more countries operating the F-16s than mirages; thus a larger base of spares , industry and engineers to make use of.


Hi,

The french are notoriously poor sales people---mirage 3 nd 5 were great sellers--because there was nothing to compete in its class---the m2k and rafale fell on their faces----. If paf had gone for the M2k in the 80's---the sales picture would hve been totally different.

Same thing for the rafale--- purchase by paf would have boosted its sale in the middle east as well.
 
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Arabs are looking to offset the rafale purchase by demanding 20 million per mirage to be returned to France.

This is what they want for each plane to help fund s 10 billion deal for rafale.

Who ever buys the mirage Wil then contract dassult themselves for additional service work and weapons purchase. I imagine another 10/15 million per plane.

Indians estimated overall cost over two billion dollars to buy sixty used mirages and then to buy the weaponsand uupgrade to Indian standards

Hence they walkked away
 
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Hi,

The french are notoriously poor sales people---mirage 3 nd 5 were great sellers--because there was nothing to compete in its class---the m2k and rafale fell on their faces----. If paf had gone for the M2k in the 80's---the sales picture would hve been totally different.

Same thing for the rafale--- purchase by paf would have boosted its sale in the middle east as well.

Correct, nevertheless

As facts remain Mirages have a low user base; and that is a disadvantage.

French are very difficult when they want to be, and they are very expensive always.
 
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I'm going to post what i put in the thread

Open Debate l Ex-UAE Mirage 2000-9s for PAF, aye or nay ? | Page 8


@Aeronaut
Firstly. does the PAF have the capital acqustion funds for such a procurement? IIRC the PAF has already said it will fail to meet self-imposed modernsation standards/force levels by 2017 because of a lack of funds, conisdering M2K-9s weren't even part of this plan I would speculate there is effectively 0 cash for any deal like this.

I'll follow your blueprint though:

* Strengths of such a procurement.
- The PAF has extensive experience in the Mirage birds (albeit an earlier model) not to mention Pak aerospace industeries have expereince in upgrading these Mirages (see ROSE). The M2K-9s fit with the PAF's single engine methodology. The M2K-9s are lethal machines and will add some serious teeth to the PAF's combat effectivness, complimenting the Thunder and F-16 nicely against an ever expanding IAF who faces none of the finacial constraints of the PAF. As this is a non-US bird one doesn't have to worry about the drama that comes with US products ie end-user agreements and sealed parts of your own a/c that you aren't even allowed to look inside. The French are a independant nation and won't just be the US's lacky.

* Weaknesses of such a procurement
- The IAF has already been using this bird for decades and is all too familiar with it, they've studied inside and out, compared how it performs against other fighters in their inventory, have sent it to their "top guns" (TACDE) and thus have almost unlimited literature on this bird and know very well what she can do-they've even gone to war with the bird. Addtionally with the IAF upgrading their M2Ks to a standard comparable with the -9s the UAE M2Ks won't really give any descernable edge over the IAF. Cost is obviously another issue of this procurement as it's unclear whether the PAF could even afford to fly this bird over the course of its remaining life span let alone the upfront unit costs. Any M2K-9 procurement may eat into JF-17 Blk2/3 orders which, long term, isn't good for the Pak aerospace industry. Now given the French are already looking to bag untold tens of billions from deals ranging from the Rafale deal to subs to nuke power plant deals with India one can only summise they will be loyal to the one with the deepest pockets if ever it came to a point where France needed to make a choice. So France really isn't a loyal freind at all.

* Difficulties in creating the ground infrastructure.
- Well if Pakistan has the cash I don't see why there would too much issues in setting up such ground infrastructure. OEMs in France would be more than willing to assist.

* Maintainance
- Well I don't really know if anyone outside of the UAE's AF is aware of the true life left in these birds so it's quite hard to guage what kind of issues the PAF could have with these birds. Having said that the M2Ks are said to be very easy birds to maintain and given there is certain MRO facitlies in Pakistan for the Mirage IIIs I think things could work out on this front with little difficulty.

* Spareparts
During peacetime, if Pakistan gets good contracts in place with French OEMs for spares and keeps up their end of the bargin (ie paying) then there is no reason spares should be an issue as it is well known the Frecnch are trustworthy on this front and will deliver what they have been contracted to. Once simply needs to look across the border, despite all the "flying coffin" drama, the M2Ks in IAF colours have an impressive safety record. Yes this isn't a fair comparison as the MIG-21s are older machines etc etc but still. However, for reasons I have outlined, when/if it comes to Wartime I don't think the PAF should expect much from the French on this front.

* Refurbishment
- Surely PAC could deal with most of the Refurbishment/MLUs involving the M2K-9s?

* Operational effectivene* Operational effectivene* Operational effectivene* Operational effectiveness/role
- Well the M2K-9s are a true swing-role platform and given the electronics on the -9s are quite capable across the board. However as far as the PAF is concerned, perhaps the M2K-9s could be best utulised for "ground pounding"/strike missions with the F-16 Blk.52s taking the A2A role.

* Price we should offer for them
- This is a hard one as, like I've said, one doesn't know the true life left in these birds so one would have to figure this out before a price could be calaculated. But I think the price would still be upward of $25-7 million.

* Pilot training
- Shouldn't be an issue, again, if the PAF is willing to shell out the cash. I'm sure the FrAF or UAE AF would be more than willing to help the PAF get the inital lot of pilots up to scratch not to mention the PAF laready has a training syllabus for the F-16 and Mirage IIIs so there should be little difficulty here.

* Weapons package
- An interesting one really as I'm not sure how this would work. Whether the PAF would have to talk to the French about an arms deal or could buy the UAE's waepons all upfront. AFAIK Pakistan has certain arms restrictions imposed on it by the EU so maybe the top-end stuff like the MICA is out of the question.

* Any upgrades
-Depends on the life left in the birds AND how much the PAF has to spend. You can see how much the IAF is paying to up grade their M2Ks (more than $40 million apeice).

* Cost to benefit ratio
- All things conisidered it's got to be pretty low. These are second hand birds, ones your adversoy has initmiate knowledge of and you cannot be sure of spares and such in the long run.


I would just add that these dreams could all come to nought as IIRC the UAE was seriosuly interested in a "buy back" deal with the French wrt the UAE's possible buy of Rafales. So it could transpire that there is nothing for the PAF to buy. One will have to wait and see how this works out as by all accounts the UAE is waiting to see what happens with India and their Rafale buy. I guess it would be a bit of a stink if by buying the Rafale the Indians ALSO make this much-speculated purchase by the PAF out of the question.

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stated by @Aeronaut a few months back.
 
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These are assumed to be coming near free. Never refuse a free lunch. Use sims and ft7 to maintain flight hours, keep them minimally operational. Use retired secondment officers to build doctrine and playbook. Keep it simple.

Latest research shows a psychological method to train on a game without playing...
 
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These are assumed to be coming near free. Never refuse a free lunch. Use sims and ft7 to maintain flight hours, keep them minimally operational. Use retired secondment officers to build doctrine and playbook. Keep it simple.

Latest research shows a psychological method to train on a game without playing...


Yes i agree, we should opt it. 2000-9 will boost PAF. Pakistan should talk with U.A.E for least price along with free weaponry :p:
 
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These are assumed to be coming near free. Never refuse a free lunch. Use sims and ft7 to maintain flight hours, keep them minimally operational. Use retired secondment officers to build doctrine and playbook. Keep it simple.

Latest research shows a psychological method to train on a game without playing...
I dont think they will come for free. Nothing in life is free especially when it relates to french products. Even the free lunches that you get are not free. They are designed for a purpose. The money that you are going to spend is not earmaŕked and if the choice in 2017 is betweenF16s and M2K9s I think the most logical solution would be F16s rather than M2K9s. In my opinion the time for m2k9s has come and gone. Whether it was a mistake in the 80s/90s to not go for them then has been argued to death and there are solid reasons for both the choices. We have even on this board listened to the very man who was involved in negotiations with the french regarding the deal and another very senior PAF officer who spoke against the and othersenior posters who made compelling arguments for the deal. I think now the deal is too late in the day and would be a mistake.
Araz
 
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No one is 'Disputing', the potency of SniperXP/JDAM/GBU combo.

The opinion is that our sixteens are more needed for defending our airspace. If M2K-9s take up their bombtruck role, it would mean more flight hours for our sixteens and Seventeens.

Our fleet order will look like this.

F/7PG Skybolt = OCU
JF-17/B-II/III = Point defense, 2nd tier air defense, stand off strike roles.

Mirage-2000-9 = Bomb Truck/CAS/Maritime strike defense vis a vis Mig-29K

F-16ADA = CU at MUSHAF
F-16C/D-MLU = Tier1 Air Superiority.

To amend that a little. The F-16s are our general purpose pounders. They are supposed to do the body punching. They are excellent bomb-trucks as well, the only issue is that we dont have enough of the general pounders(hence the need to make the JF a general pounder as well).

So if the list is to be revised. Lets put a list of missions that are flown and then assign them to the aircraft
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Now.

F-7PG = INTERCEPT, DCA(Defensive Counter Air, for a specific facility.. say Kahuta for e.g.) , Ambush-CAP, On call CAS.

The JF-17 = INTERCEPT, DCA, HAVCAP, BARCAP,Ambush-CAP, SEAD Strike, SEAD Escort(currently assigned to ROSE Mirages with MAR-1) , Pre-Planned CAS, On Call CAS, Anti-Ship. RESCAP

F-16 ADF= INTERCEPT, DCA, Ambush-CAP,HAVCAP, BARCAP, ESCORT, TARCAP, On-call CAS, Pre-Planned CAS,FAC, Interdiction,RESCAP

F-16 MLU/52 = SWEEP, INTERCEPT, DCA, Ambush-CAP,HAVCAP, BARCAP, ESCORT, TARCAP, On-call CAS, Pre-Planned CAS,FAC, Interdiction, Strike, Deep-Strike, DEAD, SEAD.

Now, while I certainly doubt the Mirage-2000-9 is going to come to Pakistan and see the Industry expert thing as a ploy by the French to get the MMRCA sped up and secure further Indian interest in these extra airframe for their M2k force. For the sake of this thread Ill add their possible roles.

M2K-9 = SWEEP, INTERCEPT, DCA, Ambush-CAP,HAVCAP, BARCAP, ESCORT, TARCAP, On-call CAS, Pre-Planned CAS, Interdiction, Strike, Deep-Strike, DEAD, SEAD. Anti-Ship

The M2K-9s are capable of performing almost all missions that the block-52 can but their effectiveness at each varies accordingly.

What most people fail to see is that these aircraft are not just the flying airframes; they encompass their spares and support along with weapons. Weapons that include the MBDA Mica system and others that have direct French involvement whose arms can be twisted by India over the MMRCA deal. Hence, these aircraft will be MORE of a hassle for us(in the oft chance that we do procure them) than the F-16s would be.
 
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