PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

[CivilianSupremacy]

Yes, when the money in-flows are in Yuan from the Chinese, obviously the other currency being used is PKR, so it's Yuan-PKR. The CPEC is a Chinese venture with Chinese and they use their own currency in giving out loans. Similarly, when buying / paying to the Chinese, they want Yuans, not dollars.

J-10C with PAF is a perfect marriage for 30 years to come and more. It literally has everything the PAF wants. Now the ONLY risk is to NOT let it become another "Mirage" saga, where we are forced to buy out of desperation. We need to plan smartly and build a local industry around its tech in Pakistan and license build (50-60%) of it in-house so we can sustain it in numbers cheaply, so upgrade as need be and come up newer variants (similar to the JFT), save billions and be worry free going forward as both Hi-Lo are being produced internally to whatever degree possible.

This way, our focus becomes 5th gen J/31/TFX / Akinci / KizilElma acquisition to complete 5th gen tier and deploy net-centric loyal wingman doctrine.

WTH Bro, Don't you get tired saying same thing over and over again. Sorry to be rude, but really no one is accepting this childish argument. You literally don't have money to replace your 2nd generation aircrafts with JF-17 Block IIIs (only 50 ordered) and you want to Setup factory for J-10Cs production lines and replace & produce J-10Cs in numbers ??? Which Oil fields and Gold mines you discovered in Pakistan which nobody else can see as of yet??

Come back to reality!

J-10C is an expensive aircraft for Pakistan. The J-10Cs are for LIMITED numbers. PAF HI/Low combination means the Hi platforms will always be in very limited numbers. It will be insanely expensive to setup entire production lines in Pakistan, train everyone on it and then produce the aircrafts. The setting up production lines and then producing will also see good 6-7 years for first batch. Why would we bother to pay so much for limited aircrafts.

Your mind is stuck at same place and you are fixated in it. Its not practical and its not good to be stubborn. Why to prolong & pollute every thread just for the sake of arguments ?

Pakistan WILL only get 25 or 36 (whatever is initial order) for this decade. There's no more J-10C in this decade. Even if Pakistan plans to induct 100 J-10Cs, it will be far far more cheaper to get them off the shelf.

Now next time, you try to repeat same story over & over again. I want to know solution to basic questions which you took for granted. Which are below:-

1) How come you know China will accept this proposal at first hand. Seeing the clear and obvious tilt by Establishment as Pro-american. Former COAS literally made statements in public / pvt meetings on which chinese should be concerned already.

2) Even more important point then first. ECONOMY. Please explain how do you think we have funds for this endaveor. Please explain, how you are going to manage and PAY for imminent payments / loan payments / import bills for next month and for the rest of the year. Also do you know how much billions of dollars of we have to pay for 2023, 2024, and so on till 2030. How much we have to pay for electricity payments, how much billions for Oil and other critical imports. Try to spend a day on it. There's no math which is able to solve this at the moment. We are very short of cash. The govt is betting on KSA to lend some money so that they can make essential payments. On the other hand I see these childish posts for military goods. No reason why we are in this mess. Our people are unaware of realities.

Everyone needs to understand economy, its importance. This is way more important even for War then our wishlist for military. If you have not invested in your economy then you simply cannot win wars. You may win limited conflicts like 27th Feb 2019. But for long, sustained war you need extremely strong economy. The oil consumption is crazy as entire military machine runs on oil. Do we have any money for sustain oil imports during war? Do we have enough money for food and other essentials during full scale war ? I wonder how can people crave for military wishlist in these times of destroyed economy. We need nothing more for military, even we did extra spending where we could have surely managed for-example it was not emergency like sitation that we spent nearly 1 billions USD on VT-4s and probably will pay upto 2 Bil for more numbers. Wars are win with complete national strength in which economy is the strongest element.
We as a nation needs to collectively think and understand that our focus should be ECONOMY. Not military goods. Once our economy is strong, we won't need to worry about anything else. We should keep minimum deterrence but we simply cannot afford beating india in military purchases. We simply cannot buy 100s of J-10Cs. Why its so hard to understand?

EDIT: The J-10Cs production lines will remain active in China for decades to come. please note China still operate old F-7s and F-8s etc. Also it will need to support its current massive numbers. It will always be much more affordable / cheaper to get additional squadron (if required and if has money problems solved) right from the china.

 

[Horse_Rider]

WTH Bro, Don't you get tired saying same thing over and over again. Sorry to be rude, but really no one is accepting this childish argument. You literally don't have money to replace your 2nd generation aircrafts with JF-17 Block IIIs (only 50 ordered) and you want to Setup factory for J-10Cs production lines and replace & produce J-10Cs in numbers ??? Which Oil fields and Gold mines you discovered in Pakistan which nobody else can see as of yet??

Come back to reality!

J-10C is an expensive aircraft for Pakistan. The J-10Cs are for LIMITED numbers. PAF HI/Low combination means the Hi platforms will always be in very limited numbers. It will be insanely expensive to setup entire production lines in Pakistan, train everyone on it and then produce the aircrafts. The setting up production lines and then producing will also see good 6-7 years for first batch. Why would we bother to pay so much for limited aircrafts.

Your mind is stuck at same place and you are fixated in it. Its not practical and its not good to be stubborn. Why to prolong & pollute every thread just for the sake of arguments ?

Pakistan WILL only get 25 or 36 (whatever is initial order) for this decade. There's no more J-10C in this decade. Even if Pakistan plans to induct 100 J-10Cs, it will be far far more cheaper to get them off the shelf.

Now next time, you try to repeat same story over & over again. I want to know solution to basic questions which you took for granted. Which are below:-

1) How come you know China will accept this proposal at first hand. Seeing the clear and obvious tilt by Establishment as Pro-american. Former COAS literally made statements in public / pvt meetings on which chinese should be concerned already.

2) Even more important point then first. ECONOMY. Please explain how do you think we have funds for this endaveor. Please explain, how you are going to manage and PAY for imminent payments / loan payments / import bills for next month and for the rest of the year. Also do you know how much billions of dollars of we have to pay for 2023, 2024, and so on till 2030. How much we have to pay for electricity payments, how much billions for Oil and other critical imports. Try to spend a day on it. There's no math which is able to solve this at the moment. We are very short of cash. The govt is betting on KSA to lend some money so that they can make essential payments. On the other hand I see these childish posts for military goods. No reason why we are in this mess. Our people are unaware of realities.

Everyone needs to understand economy, its importance. This is way more important even for War then our wishlist for military. If you have not invested in your economy then you simply cannot win wars. You may win limited conflicts like 27th Feb 2019. But for long, sustained war you need extremely strong economy. The oil consumption is crazy as entire military machine runs on oil. Do we have any money for sustain oil imports during war? Do we have enough money for food and other essentials during full scale war ? I wonder how can people crave for military wishlist in these times of destroyed economy. We need nothing more for military, even we did extra spending where we could have surely managed for-example it was not emergency like sitation that we spent nearly 1 billions USD on VT-4s and probably will pay upto 2 Bil for more numbers. Wars are win with complete national strength in which economy is the strongest element.
We as a nation needs to collectively think and understand that our focus should be ECONOMY. Not military goods. Once our economy is strong, we won't need to worry about anything else. We should keep minimum deterrence but we simply cannot afford beating india in military purchases. We simply cannot buy 100s of J-10Cs. Why its so hard to understand?

I am glad you read my post as that was the purpose, It's called education and making "a Frog think outside of the Pond" if you will so people can start to think "long term".

I can't answer SUCH a lengthy post of disturbed reality and "we are doomed" scenarios. This proposed project will help the economy. While you sit here and write these books on "how Pakistan is doomed". It's not. We are going through a tough patch but we are not "doomed". The expenditure is tightened obviously. No one's saying we execute this proposal tomorrow. We should start to get out of the current situation starting February 2023. If certain political elements don't cause further destruction, our economy should start to stabilize.

Also, do note, currently there are close to $ 50 billion worth of Power and CPEC related projects being executed right now. If we were "doomed" than none of these projects would be funded by the China / WB / ADB / IMF. I can't teach you economy on an online forum. Just like all other projects, certain defense related projects need to be created to help grow the economy. The proposed growth of Aviation Industry of Pakistan (through J-10 C) is one of them.

 

[Deino]

Something like "To be acquired by Egypt soon...?"
or Maybe destined for Egypt soon

Thanks for the translation, but given Egypt's zoo of modern fighters ranging from Mirage 2000s F-16s, Rafales; MiG-35 and so on I don't expect them to get yet another modern fighter within the same class ... or maybe this exactly is the main reason since they still lack a CHinese Dragon in their fighter-zoo!?

 

[Horse_Rider]

Thanks for the translation, but given Egypt's zoo of modern fighters ranging from Mirage 2000s F-16s, Rafales; MiG-35 and so on I don't expect them to get yet another modern fighter within the same class ... or maybe this exactly is the main reason since they still lack a CHinese Dragon in their fighter-zoo!?

You hit it on the head. I always wonder how do Egyptians maintain such a large fleet of various fighters? What's sad is that they still don't have a real, net-centric warfare capability and the Western fighters given are VERY limited in BVR and stand off engagements. It's like having nice shinny cars but they can only be driven locally,

 

[Deino]

You hit it on the head. I always wonder how do Egyptians maintain such a large fleet of various fighters? What's sad is that they still don't have a real, net-centric warfare capability and the Western fighters given are VERY limited in BVR and stand off engagements. It's like having nice shinny cars but they can only be driven locally,

In fact ... almost like India's IAF with MiG-29UPG and MiG-29K, Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000, Rafale ...

 

[Horse_Rider]

In fact ... almost like India's IAF with MiG-29UPG and MiG-29K, Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000, Rafale ...

Add Tejas MK1, Tejas Mk2, Jaguars to complete the list and soon to add F-18's to it . The IAF seems more like an airforce exhibition than a professional airforce.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

Thanks for the translation, but given Egypt's zoo of modern fighters ranging from Mirage 2000s F-16s, Rafales; MiG-35 and so on I don't expect them to get yet another modern fighter within the same class ... or maybe this exactly is the main reason since they still lack a CHinese Dragon in their fighter-zoo!?

The problem with Egypt is that they have great fighters from the west but they don't have the proper BVR missiles. US / France has not sold AMRAAMS / METEORS to Egypt. They want to ensure Israel's edge. (Though Israel still will have edge even if sold)

I saw a twitter post that Egyptians are interested in PL-15. So, thats maybe the reason they can be interested in J-10Cs. IMO Egyptians did a mistake buying so many western platforms (knowing very well that they won't be given proper weaponary for those) . Now they have plethora of platforms and perhaps it will become nightmare to maintain all those different kind of stuff.

 

[Horse_Rider]

The problem with Egypt is that they have great fighters from the west but they don't have the proper BVR missiles. US / France has not sold AMRAAMS / METEORS to Egypt. They want to ensure Israel's edge. (Though Israel still will have edge even if sold)

I saw a twitter post that Egyptians are interested in PL-15. So, thats maybe the reason they can be interested in J-10Cs. IMO Egyptians did a mistake buying so many western platforms (knowing very well that they won't be given proper weaponary for those) . Now they have plethora of platforms and perhaps it will become nightmare to maintain all those different kind of stuff.

Egypt will not get the PL-15. SD-10 if they ever agree to a JFT order.

 

[Trango Towers]

Egypt will not get the PL-15. SD-10 if they ever agree to a JFT order.

Why?

 

[Horse_Rider]

Why?

I can't put the answer on a public forum. Let's wait and find out. If the "PL-15" is ever used for them, know it's truly SD-10+

 

[Ghessan]

Arabs are also generating some interest in J10c.
View attachment 905596

It says kind of this at google translate, though don't make sense: "Is the J-10CE mud plane stuck in Egypt soon?"

 

[araz]

That bolded part I'd consider a claim you're gonna want to back with evidence. What do you think are the shortcomings and why is it 'glaring'?

No tangible data on MTBF, MTBOs. No data on war operations and how quickly aircrafts can be turned around for a sortie. What is their breakdown rate in case of high frequency war time use? The problem I have is everything is mired in obscurity. You say "it is the best!" I say "It is the worst"! My question is how do we determine who is right or wrong? These questions will remain till data emerges either of war time usage, or other parameters from Chinese sources. I am absolutely amazed by the progress made by the Chinese and remain a fan of their products. But verifiable data will not be forth coming from Chinese sources and so we will not know where they or we stand
A

 

[Luosifen]

No tangible data on MTBF, MTBOs. No data on war operations and how quickly aircrafts can be turned around for a sortie. What is their breakdown rate in case of high frequency war time use? The problem I have is everything is mired in obscurity. You say "it is the best!" I say "It is the worst"! My question is how do we determine who is right or wrong? These questions will remain till data emerges either of war time usage, or other parameters from Chinese sources. I am absolutely amazed by the progress made by the Chinese and remain a fan of their products. But verifiable data will not be forth coming from Chinese sources and so we will not know where they or we stand
A

Ok this we can work with. So, exact specs on the WS-10 engines are still classified and only known to PLAAF, PAF and the manufacturers, the best official public clue we can gain about them is the deputy designer of the J-20 commented at Zhuhai 2021 that J-20s with WS-10C have better flight performance than J-20s equipped with AL-31s after optimization:

The English summary:
1) Engines are the heart of an aircraft, and engine performance (e.g. thrust) is crucial to the overall performance of a fighter aircraft.
2) The J-20 is now equipped with domestic engines, which is a milestone.
3) The design of an aircraft is inseparable from engine development. The two processes are intertwined. The airframe and engines must be matched and optimized for each other. Our design process takes into consideration future engine upgrades.
4) The overall flight performance of the J-20 with domestic engines is "superior and not inferior" to the J-20 powered by Russian engines.

As to their reliability in high tempo use, you'll have to judge based on the fact the PLAAF used them during the recent Taiwan tensions encircling the island and maintaining that presence until the end of the exercises, where engine failure would mean ditching in water.

To me, 'glaring' shortcomings would be more along the lines of if the radars couldn't lock onto targets/get jammed easily, or if they don't carry BVRAAMs that can match or exceed the range and performance of the opposing side, or your comm links can get jammed. If previous statements made here on PDF are credible, the Shaheen IX exercise where PLAAF was authorized to show the full capabilities of the J-10C convinced PAF command to quickly buy these aircraft when they countered everything the PAF tried against them.

 

[MastanKhan]

Ok this we can work with. So, exact specs on the WS-10 engines are still classified and only known to PLAAF, PAF and the manufacturers, the best official public clue we can gain about them is the deputy designer of the J-20 commented at Zhuhai 2021 that J-20s with WS-10C have better flight performance than J-20s equipped with AL-31s after optimization:

The English summary:
1) Engines are the heart of an aircraft, and engine performance (e.g. thrust) is crucial to the overall performance of a fighter aircraft.
2) The J-20 is now equipped with domestic engines, which is a milestone.
3) The design of an aircraft is inseparable from engine development. The two processes are intertwined. The airframe and engines must be matched and optimized for each other. Our design process takes into consideration future engine upgrades.
4) The overall flight performance of the J-20 with domestic engines is "superior and not inferior" to the J-20 powered by Russian engines.

As to their reliability in high tempo use, you'll have to judge based on the fact the PLAAF used them during the recent Taiwan tensions encircling the island and maintaining that presence until the end of the exercises, where engine failure would mean ditching in water.

To me, 'glaring' shortcomings would be more along the lines of if the radars couldn't lock onto targets/get jammed easily, or if they don't carry BVRAAMs that can match or exceed the range and performance of the opposing side, or your comm links can get jammed. If previous statements made here on PDF are credible, the Shaheen IX exercise where PLAAF was authorized to show the full capabilities of the J-10C convinced PAF command to quickly buy these aircraft when they countered everything the PAF tried against them.

Hi,

There was a desperate time for Rafael & Gripen---they were desperate in getting some sales---.

Gripen & Rafale had to show what their aircraft had---to make their sale---& that is what they did---. They gave 'catchy' names to their EW counter measure suite etc---they gave 'catchy' names to their weapons---they had 'catchy' advertisements about their product---.

There is no doubt that they have an excellent product.

But otoh---china has an excellent product as well---showing in theo weapons---their EW suite and their aircraft---.

Here---Paf had the opportunity to get the Italian radar and EW pkg but chose the chinese over it---. There must be a reason for that---.

Both the chinese and Paf have made the right decision about not disclosing the abilities and capabilities of their machines and EW pkgs---.

Let the enemy wonder what we have---they will find out on day of JUDGEMENT---the day of combat.

 

[Ghessan]

Hi,

There was a desperate time for Rafael & Gripen---they were desperate in getting some sales---.

Gripen & Rafale had to show what their aircraft had---to make their sale---& that is what they did---. They gave 'catchy' names to their EW counter measure suite etc---they gave 'catchy' names to their weapons---they had 'catchy' advertisements about their product---.

There is no doubt that they have an excellent product.

But otoh---china has an excellent product as well---showing in theo weapons---their EW suite and their aircraft---.

Here---Paf had the opportunity to get the Italian radar and EW pkg but chose the chinese over it---. There must be a reason for that---.

Both the chinese and Paf have made the right decision about not disclosing the abilities and capabilities of their machines and EW pkgs---.

Let the enemy wonder what we have---they will find out on day of JUDGEMENT---the day of combat.

we are lacking same here with PAC/PAF to market JF-17, i am afraid if for Blk III with such capabilities, will ruin on marketing and advertising slipping the orders away. this plane has potential to get sales.

this is not their job simply because they don't know how to market a product.

my education and work experience with marketing of products in a multinational tells me, it will always be a flop show where ever PAC/PAF market their product.

it is not with some hoardings and an attractive stall with lights to display and few people standing there with flat faces and attitude that repels people instead of attracting them.

it is with personnel standing there, lively, energetic with their body language, way of welcoming guests, presenting the product with "appropriate" details and explanation. above all ready to answer all the questions with information available to them in an impressive way.

when staff says "cheap plane to fly" then later on what ever goodies you put in, you are already failed with first impression.

even i can do better with my experience doing same for years in so many countries, just feed me info.