J15 clearest pic

[chauism]

Read Post 64. American guy was right about you.
Now where you came from.Standard Insas rilfle used by army solider is MADE IN INDIA not imported.
By the way most of foreign weapons are slowly getting replaced by genuine INDIAN . (like LCA for mig 21, Arjun MBT for T-90 and so on)
But if it would have been case of China, you guys would have copied T-90.. I mean you would have shown art of reverse engineering off course

There are numbers of things American and Russian have reverse engineered from German and each other during and after world war II. So what is the problem? You miss the point totally, Reverse engineering is the process of discovering the technological principles of a device, object or system through analysis of its structure, function and operation. It is not as easy as you made it to be. Israeli airforce's Kfir was reverse enigeered from Mirange III, and check out its development history, Mossad had stolen 150,000 drawings of press tools, jigs and piece parts ; 400 main airframe drawings ; 50,000 instrumentation drawings ; and 4000 engines drawings, in addition to some 50,000 documents covering testing and service specifications from the French. This just give you a idea of the enormous scale of this operation. Also Israel did have Mirange III in just fleet before they developed Kfir. If you think it is a easy feat as take it apart and put it back together, then I have nothing more to say.
Equipment of the Indian Army
check this list and tell me whether you see more indian flag or other nations flags. Even just for standard rifles, indian has 3 different calibres 7.62mm NATO, 7.62*39mm, 5.56mm NATO. You guys are really the "melting pot " of the world weapon systems. INSAS is based on AKM with some improvement, but according to you it is still a copy. So should I count it as it is Indian?

Don't make me laugh about arjun replacing T-90s, I think it is the other way around.

About LCA, exactly how many are in service now?

 

[Awesome]

Yes but you and many other members here seem to think that illegally copying is a good thing (note i'm not specifically talking about the J-15 but in general copying anything).

It's good until it happens to you.

Its wrong, but if you can produce an Su-30 copy and you don't, then that should be criminally wrong since you owe it to your country to give her the best defence possible against its enemies.

 

[Je suis de retour]

Don't make me laugh about arjun replacing T-90s, I think it is the other way around.

About LCA, exactly how many are in service now?

In trails Arjun out performed T-90, being chinese you cant accept it.
any how LCA is in development stage.It would have delivered 10 years ago if we would have Copied our Mirage 2000 and named it LCA

Actually you dont see the difference of what you do and what others did.. Most of times reverse engineering was done by with help from Spies work between two adversary. But what china does break TRUST. Thats why world accepts India more as emerging power than china.Leave india, you have boundary problems with almost all of your neighbours..BUT being chinese you wont accept it, neither you would understand it

 

[chauism]

Actually you dont see the difference of what you do and what others did.. Most of times reverse engineering was done by with help from Spies work between two adversary. But what china does break TRUST. Thats why world accepts India more as emerging power than china.Leave india, you have boundary problems with almost all of your neighbours..BUT being chinese you wont accept it, neither you would understand it

No, that is not true at all. Reverse engineering means you have to produce all those documents and blue prints all on your own without any assistance from the original manufacture in any forms. Israel's Kfir case was unique because the involvement of mossad. They really took a short cut by stole all those documents, but underthe pressure they were facing at the time it was kind of understandable. It was considered one of the largest espionnage coups in the last century. Even then it was not easy at all for them to successfully developed Kfirs.

In trails Arjun out performed T-90s, being chinese you cant accept it.

Yes, that is why India decide to manufacture 1,000 of T-90 in India in 2006, while at the same time ordering 330 units from Russia. I am not the one who is not accepting Arjun, Indian army is.
Arjun vs T-90 in June
Arjun vs T 90: Tank trials to kick off next month

any how LCA is in development stage.It would have delivered 10 years ago if we would have Copied our Mirage 2000 and named it LCA

Oh boy, trust me that would even take longer than inducing LCA. How is your indigenously made "flying coffins" mig-21 doing?
Yet another MiG crash

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

So Do the Chinese friends manufacture the engines in the J15?

If so which one ? India looks to be in trouble

 

[gubbi]

Why is everyone making a big deal about it? The Chini janta are known to copy stuff with a scant regard to IPR. When even the admin of this beloved site supports IPR violations, citing national interests, its in everyone's best interest to let it rest. Nothing more can be achieved by trying to tell them how serious an IPR violation is and how detrimental it is to ones own technological development. But then these people apparently know better.

Anyhow, the present J-15 is a copy of an early Su-33 prototype (from what I gathered from various sources), obtained from Ukraine (which apparently didnt know how to put the airframe to good use). Su-33 evolved from that prototype and when it reached maturity, the aircraft served with the Russian navy and now the Russians are planning to replace their aging Su-33 fleet with the MiG-29K. IN chose MiG-29K over Su-33 for a reason. China is NOW making copies of the Su-33 prototype. Says it all.

All this "indigenous" tech being incorporated in J-15 is hogwash. It is as advanced as their "indigenous" J-11B. So much for advanced technology available in China, they couldn't even make the aircraft wings fold/unfold for stashing into the aircraft carrier hanger. They HAD to resort to buying a prototype of Su-33 and copying that piece of technology. Why else would the Chini janta buy a prototype from Ukraine? Because they could NOT come up with "indigenous" design for making the aircraft wings fold/unfold. And neither do they have the technological knowhow to strengthen that airframe for numerous carrier landings.

So much for technological advancement in China.

 

[Break the Silence]

So Do the Chinese friends manufacture the engines in the J15?

If so which one ? India looks to be in trouble

Why????Mr. Gabbar, I do Not think so..




And, its highly doubtable, wether it will be able to face....The Original one!!

 

[SBD-3]

Why is everyone making a big deal about it? The Chini janta are known to copy stuff with a scant regard to IPR. When even the admin of this beloved site supports IPR violations, citing national interests, its in everyone's best interest to let it rest. Nothing more can be achieved by trying to tell them how serious an IPR violation is and how detrimental it is to ones own technological development. But then these people apparently know better.

Anyhow, the present J-15 is a copy of an early Su-33 prototype (from what I gathered from various sources), obtained from Ukraine (which apparently didnt know how to put the airframe to good use). Su-33 evolved from that prototype and when it reached maturity, the aircraft served with the Russian navy and now the Russians are planning to replace their aging Su-33 fleet with the MiG-29K. IN chose MiG-29K over Su-33 for a reason. China is NOW making copies of the Su-33 prototype. Says it all.

All this "indigenous" tech being incorporated in J-15 is hogwash. It is as advanced as their "indigenous" J-11B. So much for advanced technology available in China, they couldn't even make the aircraft wings fold/unfold for stashing into the aircraft carrier hanger. They HAD to resort to buying a prototype of Su-33 and copying that piece of technology. Why else would the Chini janta buy a prototype from Ukraine? Because they could NOT come up with "indigenous" design for making the aircraft wings fold/unfold. And neither do they have the technological knowhow to strengthen that airframe for numerous carrier landings.

So much for technological advancement in China.

What I am not able to understand is that it makes reasonable sense that PTDM is showing concern (cuz he is a Russian) but I dont know why Indian members are jumping so much?....If many of the indians think that Chinese are copycats and their local systems are far inferior than the Indian AF's inventory, why are they so interested in it like they are really concerned about it....anyways I am anxiously waiting for a reply....plz refrain from trademark comments like "you need to educate yourself"...."you're out of brains"...."you're are talking BS" and stuff like this.....

 

[mike05]

Lets get this moral stance of copying out of the way, every country copies in the name of National Security or some other crap. Be it guns, planes, tanks etc. Saying that China broke the trust of some nations by copying their tech is rubbish why?
- No country trust any country (does India trust US 100% or Pakistan and China for that matter?)
- If any country was so worried about their technology being copied they should not have sold it in the first place. They were paid for it knowing full well what the end user would do. Only an idiot would sell military hardware assuming the other party will bind to a piece of paper.

Copying a plane is not an easy feat, it requires the copier to have a host of advance manufacturing capabilities at his disposal. Making an airframe is not like welding two steel pieces together. The airframes are usually alloys mixed in the right proportion and then need to be forged with the correct heat and tempered to give the right strength and durability. Having a piece of the equipment does not mean you can just melt it down and discover all the secrets.

Unfortunately most of these details can be only be discovered thru trial and error which US and Russia have the most experience. Israel jump this process by getting the blueprints with all the technical know how. China may be producing crap but this is just a jump start trial and error phase.

 

[chauism]

Why is everyone making a big deal about it? The Chini janta are known to copy stuff with a scant regard to IPR. When even the admin of this beloved site supports IPR violations, citing national interests, its in everyone's best interest to let it rest. Nothing more can be achieved by trying to tell them how serious an IPR violation is and how detrimental it is to ones own technological development. But then these people apparently know better.

Anyhow, the present J-15 is a copy of an early Su-33 prototype (from what I gathered from various sources), obtained from Ukraine (which apparently didnt know how to put the airframe to good use). Su-33 evolved from that prototype and when it reached maturity, the aircraft served with the Russian navy and now the Russians are planning to replace their aging Su-33 fleet with the MiG-29K. IN chose MiG-29K over Su-33 for a reason. China is NOW making copies of the Su-33 prototype. Says it all.

All this "indigenous" tech being incorporated in J-15 is hogwash. It is as advanced as their "indigenous" J-11B. So much for advanced technology available in China, they couldn't even make the aircraft wings fold/unfold for stashing into the aircraft carrier hanger. They HAD to resort to buying a prototype of Su-33 and copying that piece of technology. Why else would the Chini janta buy a prototype from Ukraine? Because they could NOT come up with "indigenous" design for making the aircraft wings fold/unfold. And neither do they have the technological knowhow to strengthen that airframe for numerous carrier landings.

So much for technological advancement in China.

Even though it has legal issues of IP violation, reverse engineering or copying as you would say has its necessarity in the technological advancement. Russia and USA also has been doing this for years just to a less extend. If you don't know how to solve certain problem, and if you just know the answer, it is always better for someone to work his way back from the answer to the problem to find the solution than just get the solution from someone else. This way you learn more and gain more experience from how to solve this problem, and better digest the knowledge. Not every time you have to reinvent the wheel.

I agree with you that no one can become a technological power house just by reverse engineering everything. However it is better than just buying every advanced equipment from abroad. Besides reverse engineering is not what only China is doing. If you want to argue about who is more innovative, who can start another thread.

About J11B, it seems to me not bad at all from all the sources I have come across. So if J-15 has actually the same standard of J11B, then I have to say it will be a very good carrier based aircraft.
Details have emerged of China’s next generation J-11B fighter

Russia Navy choose mig-29k over su-33 is not because su-33 is inferior to mig29k. The airframe of Su-33 is much superior comparing to mig-29's. If you know the state of russian navy, then you can clearly see it is more of problem of financial feasibilty. Just check the number of navy vessels had sold for scraps to China alone, you will get the idea.

If you think carrier based aircraft is just about the folding wings, then you are more navie than I thought. As for China who never had any experience with aircraft carrier operations, it is very logical for it to study extensively of whatever the latest generation carrier based aircraft whatever they can get their hands on, if China want to operate aircraft carrier in the future at all. Su-27 is a very superb air platform. So for China's first generation carriers based aircraft to be based on its variant, it is a very logical choice. Also after the development of J-15, some russian officials want China to return to the table for negotiation of purchasing of Su-33 now, let's see if China is interested in this deal anymore in the future if Russian think J-15 is inferior comparing to Su-33 as russians have claimed.

 

[SBD-3]

Even though it has legal issues of IP violation, reverse engineering or copying as you would say has its necessarity in the technological advancement. Russia and USA also has been doing this for years just to a less extend. If you don't know the answer to certain problem, and if you just know the answer, it is always better for someone to work his way back from the answer to the problem to find the solution than just get the solution from someone else. This way you learn more and gain more experience from how to solve this problem, and better digest the knowledge. Not every time you have to reinvent the wheel.

I agree with you that no one can become a technological power house just by reverse engineering everything. However it is better than just buying every advanced equipment from abroad. Besides reverse engineering is not what only China is doing. If you want to argue about who is more innovative, who can start another thread.

About J11B, it seems to me not bad at all from all the sources I have come across. So if J-15 has actually the same standard of J11B, then I have to say it will be a very good carrier based aircraft.
Details have emerged of China’s next generation J-11B fighter

Russia Navy choose mig-29k over su-33 is not because su-33 is inferior to mig29k. The airframe of Su-33 is much superior comparing to mig-29's. If you know the state of russian navy, then you can clearly see it is more of problem of financial feasibilty. Just check the number of navy vessels had sold for scraps to China alone, you will get the idea.

If you think carrier based aircraft is just about the folding wings, then you are more navie than I thought. As for China who never had any experience with aircraft carrier operations, it is very logical for it to study extensively of whatever the latest generation carrier based aircraft whatever they can get their hands on, if China want to operate aircraft carrier in the future at all. Su-27 is a very superb air platform. So for China's first generation carriers based aircraft to be based on its variant, it is a very logical choice. Also after the development of J-15, some russian officials wants China to return to the table for negotiation of purchasing of Su-33 now, let's see if China is interested in this deal anymore in the future.

well said.....I have seen most of the neutral articles appreciating J-11B in terms of capability....The only problem in exports of J-11B IMO (in contrast to the most popular view of russian factor) is that the local engine is not yet matured....once this is done...Russia can say bye bye to a significant market as China will significantly compete on Price....What Russia can do...only one thing, compete in price .......Intellectual stuff.....no sir....Russia can't do a single thing except watch and twist its hands...Isarelis have done it with Kfir...what happened?..nothing.......and secondly the Russians calling China to Table about Su-33, I don't see this happening ever...cuz China has finished the development and now test model should enter into production to lower the developmental cost, infact I suspect PLAAF may also be acquiring a different version for their requirements...so that it would become economical and thus beneficial for both and who knows who would be the first foreign customer

 

[gubbi]

What I am not able to understand is that it makes reasonable sense that PTDM is showing concern (cuz he is a Russian) but I dont know why Indian members are jumping so much?....If many of the indians think that Chinese are copycats and their local systems are far inferior than the Indian AF's inventory, why are they so interested in it like they are really concerned about it....anyways I am anxiously waiting for a reply....plz refrain from trademark comments like "you need to educate yourself"...."you're out of brains"...."you're are talking BS" and stuff like this.....

Hasnaina ji, did you read the first sentence of my post? That makes it very clear, doesnt it?

 

[lmjiao]

well said.....I have seen most of the neutral articles appreciating J-11B in terms of capability....The only problem in exports of J-11B IMO (in contrast to the most popular view of russian factor) is that the local engine is not yet matured....once this is done...Russia can say bye bye to a significant market as China will significantly compete on Price....What Russia can do...only one thing, compete in price .......Intellectual stuff.....no sir....Russia can't do a single thing except watch and twist its hands...Isarelis have done it with Kfir...what happened?..nothing.......and secondly the Russians calling China to Table about Su-33, I don't see this happening ever...cuz China has finished the development and now test model should enter into production to lower the developmental cost, infact I suspect PLAAF may also be acquiring a different version for their requirements...so that it would become economical and thus beneficial for both and who knows who would be the first foreign customer

Although over 70% of J-11B will be designed and made in China, I still don't think that China will export J-11B and J-15, not for legal issues, it's just our Russian friends would feel too uncomfortable with it.

By the way, our Russian friends recently refuse to export Engines as promised which also break trust seriously. So it's clear, no trust, just interest.

Another reason for J-15 is that few countries have carriers large enough for it.

I think J-10B with local engines would be a good choice for sale, cause it will be 100% designed and made in China.

 

[chauism]

Although over 70% of J-11B will be designed and made in China, I still don't think that China will export J-11B and J-15, not for legal issues, it's just our Russian friends would feel too uncomfortable with it.

Another reason for J-15 is that few countries have carriers large enough for it.

I think J-10B with local engines would be a good choice for sale, cause it will be 100% designed and made in China.

The problem of J-10 is that it is a single engine aircraft, which is not a very safe for carrier operations. There are only few successful single engine carrier based aircraft I can think of.

 

[gubbi]

Even though it has legal issues of IP violation, reverse engineering or copying as you would say has its necessarity in the technological advancement. Russia and USA also has been doing this for years just to a less extend.

You my friend are woefully wrong. US and Russia attract talent, US from the world over, while Russia harvests its own domestic pool.
Spying and trying to collect information and trying to come up with technology to utilize the knowledge is vastly different from copying a piece of machinery bolt for bolt. Copying DOES NOT require a level of sophistication, that most chini brothers are trying to claim. I for one do not buy this malarkey. Period.

If you don't know the answer to certain problem, and if you just know the answer, it is always better for someone to work his way back from the answer to the problem to find the solution than just get the solution from someone else. This way you learn more and gain more experience from how to solve this problem, and better digest the knowledge. Not every time you have to reinvent the wheel.

The futlility of 'reinventing' the wheel is known to all. However, one cannot justify the blatant copying and IPR violations as an excuse for not reinventing the wheel. That is plain stupidity.

Again, what do you mean you know the answer but dont know the problem? That is very lame, indeed. That clearly means that there is no innovation and originality to see the problem in the first place let alone come up with an appropriate solution.

I agree with you that no one can become a technological power house just by reverse engineering everything. However it is better than just buying every advanced equipment from abroad. Besides reverse engineering is not what only China is doing. If you want to argue about who is more innovative, who can start another thread.

There is absolutely no need to argue about innovation in China. If you want to open a thread, be my guest. However, the argument that the number of patents argue for Chini innovation capability is horse manure. Why? Like I have already mentioned in one of my earlier posts, redesigning a coffeemaker handle can land you a patent. Most of Chinese patent applications are in that category. They did not and neither can they come up with the idea of a handle for a coffeemaker. There is absolutely nothing ground breaking in what the Chinese can do, except make an absolutely exact replica of anything they can lay their hands on. I do agree that is a commendable quality, however from the innovation point of view, its malarkey.

About J11B, it seems to me not bad at all from all the sources I have come across. So if J-15 has actually the same standard of J11B, then I have to say it will be a very good carrier based aircraft.
Details have emerged of China’s next generation J-11B fighter

There is no difference between J11 and J11B. The only difference is that the latter is assembled with parts manufactured solely in China, unlike some of the components being brought in from Russia for J-11A. However, both still use Russian powerplants, though there are recent attempts by the Chinese to power the aircraft with their 'indigenous' powerplants. These 'indigenous' powerplants are again copies of Russian engines and yet, the Chinese are having trouble to perfect them. If copying requires an advanced technological base, why is that the Chinese cannot perfect a copied engine?

Russia Navy choose mig-29k over su-33 is not because su-33 is inferior to mig29k. The airframe of Su-33 is much superior comparing to mig-29's. If you know the state of russian navy, then you can clearly see it is more of problem of financial feasibilty.

It would do you some good if you read reports more carefully. Russian Navy chose MiG-29 because they offered superior advantages over Su-33 for carrier based operations. Financial feasibility does not come into account here, because, if they were so cash strapped, why replace their existing aircraft with new planes? Where did they get money for that?

If you think carrier based aircraft is just about the folding wings, then you are more navie than I thought. As for China who never had any experience with aircraft carrier operations, it is very logical for it to study extensively of whatever the latest generation carrier based aircraft whatever they can get their hands on, if China want to operate aircraft carrier in the future at all. Su-27 is a very superb air platform. So for China's first generation carriers based aircraft to be based on its variant, it is a very logical choice. Also after the development of J-15, some russian officials want China to return to the table for negotiation of purchasing of Su-33 now, let's see if China is interested in this deal anymore in the future if Russian think J-15 is inferior comparing to Su-33 as russians have claimed.

For an airframe the size of Su-33, yes. Its all about how you can fit that airframe into the hanger of the carrier and how strong can you make the landing gear to take the repeated beatings of landing on carrier decks. Folding/unfolding wings is a complicated piece of technology and that is why China copied Su-33. Else they would have just make those modifications in the wings of J-11B, isnt it? Tell me any other reason as to why?