J15 clearest pic

[mike05]

And your point being? Can you provide reliable sources, not a blog post from Strategypage!

How is your second post related to the topic under discussion?

Dont butt in if you dont know what to talk about. Stay on topic. One has the right to remain silent to hide ones stupidity or GTFO.

My point being all countries copy, so get off your high horse.

To the rest of the readers, this is just to refute Gubbi's IPR accusations which is not solely on China

 

[chauism]

The German scientist, Von Braun, who made the V2 was given US citizenship and then went on to develop the Saturn V series of rockets which put man on Moon! How is that for copying, eh?
The point is, US respected IPR and they got the guys who developed ideas in the first place to come work for US. Similarly, the Russians too, whisked off some Nazi scientists to work for them in Mother Russia, and gave those scientists whatever they demanded for research.
China just blatantly copies stuff without any regard for IPR!
Totally different from what you are trying to claim.

So tell me who was the german engineer who helped allies with Jerry Can during WW II. How are those americans that were working on Tu-4, AA-2, R-33 doing in Russia.

Dude, I hear this argument almost everyday! Oh, you require a level of sophistication to even copy, reverse engineering is different from copying, blah blah blah blah, etc etc. IPR violations are serious. What may seem quick fixes for the short term cause serious damage in the long term. These short sighted policies will one day prove to be China's undoing.

"The legibility of a copy is inversely proportional to its importance. - Murphy's Law"

No need to bring India into our discussion. From what I have seen, there are certain things which China has clear advantages in. First- human rights, or the absence thereof - for conducting scientific research on humans, including research on stem cells. Animal rights violations and research involving animals. Those are two most prominent examples as to why some research in China holds importance for more scientifically advanced nations which are held back because of governmental regulations.

Please read those reports and see what was their method of calculation. It has nothing to do with anything you have mentioned.

ptldM3 has provided detailed discussion as to why your point is wrong.

If you go through the whole discussion, my point is still valid.

So why did Chini people get the Su-33 prototype from Ukraine and study it for 10 years, before developing the J-15? Why didnt they start a parallel design if that was so easy?

Seriously, innovation is sorely wanting. And as unfortunate as it may sound, that comes from individuality, not from collective education.

First of all, the current carrier plan for China was not greenlighted until at least 4 years ago. Just check when did China get Varyag, and how long it had been sitting idle in the dock. Same with T-10K, it was just for study purpose only. Why does one plan to make a carrier based aircraft when one still is debating whether one should have a carrier program among oneself.

Secondly the folding wing was at least 95 years old technologhy, even with all the improvement over the years, it is not as advanced tech as you have claim. If China can strengthen J-11B's airframe significantly as you conviniently ignored in my previous post, why can they do the same on J-15.

Ah! The quintessential inside-outside argument. Thats the only argument you chini people fall back on. How many of you guys have really looked inside the J-11B/J-15 and compared that with the insides of a Su-27? Making local copies of Russian tech does not make a new tech. Putting those locally made pieces of machinery inside a J-11B/J-15 does not make a new airplane.

Since you ask for it.
Comparison of Su-27 and J-11B cockpit

Su-27SK/J-11

Su-27SMK/J-11A

J-11B

In case you think it is a picture of Su-30MKK, here is the picture of Su-30MKK's cockpit

No one refutes that fact. The problem is IPR violation by secretly producing J-11B.

The issue about IP violation only surfaced when China put J-11B on display for export market during the one of the airshow. If you think they know nothing about the existance of J-11B program before that when there was rumors and pictures of it flying all around the internet, then I think the first thing Putin had to do is to fire, wait actually better execute the director of FSB.

 

[SBD-3]

The point is, US respected IPR and they got the guys who developed ideas in the first place to come work for US.

here is something about US

 

[gubbi]

I dont think you do a lot of research....ok i never wanted to post this....(as I don't care a s***t after clearing my point) there has been a similar issue between Germany and Russia (I dont know whether you read good news papers and sources of research).....

another case between Japan and Russia

I guess now my point would be clear that it is an arena in which everyone has his hands dirty.....hope you understand

We are talking industrial espionage vs blatant disregard for IPR, in this particular case China. What laws protect international IPRs in China? India on the other hand has atleast a laws for IPR protection.

I am not in any way defending industrial espionage, but it happens all over the world. You made a point and I do agree with it. But as I see it, industrial espionage is done to advance technologies which are lagging behind due to a difficulty in developing a critical component required for the technology to advance. Most of the companies which indulge in industrial espionage do make a big deal about IPR and go great extents to safeguard their own IPRs.

China on the other hand, blatantly copies whatever it can, without a scant regard for IPR. China does NOT have the capability to develop a technologically advanced project, let alone pieces of technology which are critical for the big project. The classic case of J-11B comes up everytime. China has license to manufacture 200 J-11s with kits imported from Russia, but stopped at 95. Though 105 were still remaining, China had started developing their own version - the J-11B. It wasnt that China wanted bits of technology to upgrade J-11s, they just started making the whole goddam aircraft without paying Russia royalties. So Russia cancelled the deal, and hence all those J-11s now being made in China are illegal copies.

 

[gubbi]

To the rest of the readers, this is just to refute Gubbi's IPR accusations which is not solely on China

I got on that horse because I can, so aint gettin off my high horse.

Industrial espionage is different from blatant copying with complete disregard for IPR, which China is the biggest violator of!

The link you posted in your previous post is alteast a decade old. The Indian Pharmaceutical industry was then still controlled by process patent laws, while product patent laws didnt exist. What that meant was, a drug which was made by a particular reaction, could be made in India using a different reaction. The process was patented, the product patent didnt exist. That was the problem that India faced before GATT verification and subsequent entry into WTO.
With sweeping reforms, the process patent has been substantiated with new product patent laws, wherein the drugs are also patented. International patents are as respected as local patents. And thats why, in the present days, companies wait for 10 years (term for drug patents IIRC) before the international patents expire and they can start manufacturing the drugs.
The whole affair is far more complicated for the scope of this thread.
Oh, btw, Cipla is a sh!tty company! I know.

 

[chauism]

I am not in any way defending industrial espionage, but it happens all over the world. You made a point and I do agree with it. But as I see it, industrial espionage is done to advance technologies which are lagging behind due to a difficulty in developing a critical component required for the technology to advance. Most of the companies which indulge in industrial espionage do make a big deal about IPR and go great extents to safeguard their own IPRs.

That is exactly the point. Industrial espionage happens when one does not even know how to copy it properly and has to rely on someone else's knowledge through stealing the blueprints or documents of the original ones in order to make it work, let it be a component or whole product. Where as in reverse engineering, one has to produce those blue prints or documents solely on ones own through the process of discovering the technological principles of a device, object or system through analysis of its structure, function and operation.

 

[dingyibvs]

We are talking industrial espionage vs blatant disregard for IPR, in this particular case China. What laws protect international IPRs in China? India on the other hand has atleast a laws for IPR protection.

I am not in any way defending industrial espionage, but it happens all over the world. You made a point and I do agree with it. But as I see it, industrial espionage is done to advance technologies which are lagging behind due to a difficulty in developing a critical component required for the technology to advance. Most of the companies which indulge in industrial espionage do make a big deal about IPR and go great extents to safeguard their own IPRs.

China on the other hand, blatantly copies whatever it can, without a scant regard for IPR. China does NOT have the capability to develop a technologically advanced project, let alone pieces of technology which are critical for the big project. The classic case of J-11B comes up everytime. China has license to manufacture 200 J-11s with kits imported from Russia, but stopped at 95. Though 105 were still remaining, China had started developing their own version - the J-11B. It wasnt that China wanted bits of technology to upgrade J-11s, they just started making the whole goddam aircraft without paying Russia royalties. So Russia cancelled the deal, and hence all those J-11s now being made in China are illegal copies.

The deal wasn't cancelled. China continued to pay for the parts and Russia continued to deliver them as per the deal, China just no longer assembles them and uses the parts as spares now. Where did you hear that the deal was cancelled?

 

[mike05]

I got on that horse because I can, so aint gettin off my high horse.

Industrial espionage is different from blatant copying with complete disregard for IPR, which China is the biggest violator of!

The link you posted in your previous post is alteast a decade old. The Indian Pharmaceutical industry was then still controlled by process patent laws, while product patent laws didnt exist. What that meant was, a drug which was made by a particular reaction, could be made in India using a different reaction. The process was patented, the product patent didnt exist. That was the problem that India faced before GATT verification and subsequent entry into WTO.
With sweeping reforms, the process patent has been substantiated with new product patent laws, wherein the drugs are also patented. International patents are as respected as local patents. And thats why, in the present days, companies wait for 10 years (term for drug patents IIRC) before the international patents expire and they can start manufacturing the drugs.
The whole affair is far more complicated for the scope of this thread.
Oh, btw, Cipla is a sh!tty company! I know.

Mate lets not get worked up over a discussion? I pulled the article just to indicate all countries not to condemn. All countries will pirate/RE based on what they can manufacture. Usually pirated software being the easiest, then drugs, toys etc. Some governments are even known to print counterfeit currency.

Back to aircrafts

I agree with you that China copies way to much for comfort. But even copying takes a degree of skill, and with a fighter aircraft more so. (Ask your friends who are material engineers in aviation)

Developing countries are under the thumb way too much of the military complexes of developed nations which utilize weapons distribution for political agendas (They are selling the weapons to maintain world peace). Though the J15 will not match any American or Russian plane its through engineering experience that creates more ingenuity and maybe one day it will.

I say its a commendable job done by China on the J15 regardless. Hopefully one day it will result in something better. If China and India put aside their differences and co develop something it might even result in something astounding (Show US & Russia to stop pushing people around )

 

[chauism]

We are talking industrial espionage vs blatant disregard for IPR, in this particular case China. What laws protect international IPRs in China? India on the other hand has atleast a laws for IPR protection.

I am not in any way defending industrial espionage, but it happens all over the world. You made a point and I do agree with it. But as I see it, industrial espionage is done to advance technologies which are lagging behind due to a difficulty in developing a critical component required for the technology to advance. Most of the companies which indulge in industrial espionage do make a big deal about IPR and go great extents to safeguard their own IPRs.

China on the other hand, blatantly copies whatever it can, without a scant regard for IPR. China does NOT have the capability to develop a technologically advanced project, let alone pieces of technology which are critical for the big project. The classic case of J-11B comes up everytime. China has license to manufacture 200 J-11s with kits imported from Russia, but stopped at 95. Though 105 were still remaining, China had started developing their own version - the J-11B. It wasnt that China wanted bits of technology to upgrade J-11s, they just started making the whole goddam aircraft without paying Russia royalties. So Russia cancelled the deal, and hence all those J-11s now being made in China are illegal copies.

You know a simple google will do you a lot of good.
J-11
"In 1992, China became the first non-CIS country to operate the Sukhoi Su-27 fighter. In 1995, Russian agreed in principle to allow the PRC to build the Su-27SK single-seat fighter locally under license. In 1996, Sukhoi Company (JSC) and SAC entered into a contract worth US$2.5 billion for the co-production of 200 Su-27SK fighters as the J-11. Under the terms of the agreement, Sukhoi/KnAAPO would supply the aircraft in kit form to be assembled in SAC. It was reported that Russia also agreed to help the PRC gradually increase the portion of Chinese-made content on the J-11, so that SAC could eventually produce the aircraft independently.
November 2004, Russian media reported that the J-11 production had stopped after about 100 examples were built. According to the report, the Chinese side had requested Sukhoi Company to stop deliveries of the assembly kits. The report citing a source within the PLAAF suggested that the basic variant Su-27SK/J-11 no longer met the PLAAF requirements.

A number of reasons may have contributed to the stop of the J-11 production. Firstly, the co-production agreement did not include the transfer of avionics and engine technologies, and the Chinese-built J-11 would have to continue relying on the Russian supply of these systems. Secondly, the Russian-made fire-control system on the J-11 is not compatible with the Chinese missiles. As a result, the PLAAF had to import additional R-27 (AA-10) MRAAM and R-73 (AA-11) SRAAM from Russia to support the operations of its J-11s. Thirdly, as a single mission air superiority fighter, the Su-27SK/J-11 could only perform secondary attack missions, and only with “dumb” munitions that include a range of free-fall bombs and unguided rockets.

Sukhoi Company JSC actively marketed its Su-27SKM to the PRC in 2003. The Su-27SKM was a modernised multi-role variant derived from the Su-27SK, but with an improved Zhuk-27 (or N001VEP on the later variant) fire-control radar, and an upgraded cockpit featuring multifunctional displays similar to that of the Su-30MK. However, the aircraft was rejected by the PLAAF in favour of an ‘indigenised’ variant of the J-11."

So let's do some reading comprehesion here, should we.

1.The deal of Su-27SK come with the transfer of technology besides avoinics and enigines.

2.Sukhoi/KnAAPO has the knowledge of and agree to help China producing it on its own with indegious components.

3.The goal of this deal was for China to produce Su-27 independently like its previous agreement onMig-17, Mig-19 and Mig-21.

4.It is China who requested to stop delivery of the assembly kits after 100 of them has been produced before it does not meet its requirement anymore.

5.Obvious the reason is not because of IP infringement, because if it is Sukhoi Company JSC will not actively marketed its Su-27SKM to China again.

6.The reason Su-27SKM was rejected was because PLAAF in favour of an ‘indigenised’ variant of the J-11(which I think its J-11B), which you claim is the same as Su-27SK that Su-27SKM is much more advanced comparing to.

 

[gubbi]

You know a simple google will do you a lot of good.

I do that. You quote a Chinese source.

In 1996, Sukhoi Company (JSC) and SAC entered into a contract worth US$2.5 billion for the co-production of 200 Su-27SK fighters as the J-11. Under the terms of the agreement, Sukhoi/KnAAPO would supply the aircraft in kit form to be assembled in SAC. It was reported that Russia also agreed to help the PRC gradually increase the portion of Chinese-made content on the J-11, so that SAC could eventually produce the aircraft independently.

Most sources claim that JSC's agreement was for indigenization of manufacturing upto 70%. Not more than that. That still doesnt mean that China could make illegal copies and call its own.

November 2004, Russian media reported that the J-11 production had stopped after about 100 examples were built. According to the report, the Chinese side had requested Sukhoi Company to stop deliveries of the assembly kits. The report citing a source within the PLAAF suggested that the basic variant Su-27SK/J-11 no longer met the PLAAF requirements.

A number of reasons may have contributed to the stop of the J-11 production. Firstly, the co-production agreement did not include the transfer of avionics and engine technologies, and the Chinese-built J-11 would have to continue relying on the Russian supply of these systems. Secondly, the Russian-made fire-control system on the J-11 is not compatible with the Chinese missiles. As a result, the PLAAF had to import additional R-27 (AA-10) MRAAM and R-73 (AA-11) SRAAM from Russia to support the operations of its J-11s. Thirdly, as a single mission air superiority fighter, the Su-27SK/J-11 could only perform secondary attack missions, and only with “dumb” munitions that include a range of free-fall bombs and unguided rockets.

SAC's agreement with JSC did not cover your first point. Thats just an excuse. The real reason was, since the Chinese found out ways to build the aircraft domestically, and name it J-11B, they thought they could get away with paying royalties to JSC.
The second point may be true.
About the third point, when SAC entered into a contact with JSC, they already knew the limitations of the aircraft. Entering into a contract without knowing the capabilities of the aircraft is foolish, to say the least. Rescinding on the contract citing such reasons leaves much to doubt about the real intentions, which conveniently surfaced later in the form of J-11B.

So let's do some reading comprehesion here, should we.

1.The deal of Su-27SK come with the transfer of technology besides avoinics and enigines.

2.Sukhoi/KnAAPO has the knowledge of and agree to help China producing it on its own with indegious components.

3.The goal of this deal was for China to produce Su-27 independently like its previous agreement onMig-17, Mig-19 and Mig-21.

4.It is China who requested to stop delivery of the assembly kits after 100 of them has been produced before it does not meet its requirement anymore.

5.Obvious the reason is not because of IP infringement, because if it is Sukhoi Company JSC will not actively marketed its Su-27SKM to China again.

6.The reason Su-27SKM was rejected was because PLAAF in favour of an ‘indigenised’ variant of the J-11(which I think its J-11B), which you claim is the same as Su-27SK that Su-27SKM is much more advanced comparing to.

1. SAC should have thought about it earlier. Just like India refused to accept ToT for MiG-29 (for whatever ridiculous reasons).

2, 3, 4, 5. The contract was to help SAC build upto 70% of the aircraft indigenously. SAC simply started making more than 90% of the aircraft indigenously, without paying royalties and naming it J-11B. Thats what happened.

6. China now already had the J-11B. So why pay money?

 

[dingyibvs]

Hey gubbi,

You sound like you're very knowledgeable of the terms of the contract signed between Russia and China. Could you tell me which clause stated that China could not produce the J-11 without paying royalty to the Russians?

I've always wanted to know the actual terms of the contract, but I've never been able to find somebody who's read it. The damn Russians say this and say that, but never actually brings the case to court so nobody gets to see what the actual terms are. Good thing I found somebody who's read it, thanks in advance!!

 

[ptldM3]

Hey gubbi,

You sound like you're very knowledgeable of the terms of the contract signed between Russia and China. Could you tell me which clause stated that China could not produce the J-11 without paying royalty to the Russians?
I've always wanted to know the actual terms of the contract, but I've never been able to find somebody who's read it. The damn Russians say this and say that, but never actually brings the case to court so nobody gets to see what the actual terms are. Good thing I found somebody who's read it, thanks in advance!!

The J-11 is still an SU-27 airframe--it makes no difference if the airframe uses more composites or whatever. Sukhoi transfered technology and help setup the factories that produce the the J-11. Let me drive the point home, if Egypt, for example, got TOT to produce the J-10 and Egypt went over the quota and started producing unauthorized aircraft what then?

 

[chauism]

I do that. You quote a Chinese source.
Most sources claim that JSC's agreement was for indigenization of manufacturing upto 70%. Not more than that. That still doesnt mean that China could make illegal copies and call its own.

True, engine and avionics are those 30% as the article has stated. The problem is not that China is not willing to pay the money, but rather Russia refuse to transfer those technology to China. Which I think in the end it is a good thing, because now it force China to develop WS-10 on its own, which engineers gain significant experience of how to design an advanced turbofan engine on their own. So it did not face the same fate as Y-10.

I do that. You quote a Chinese source.

I often quote from Indian sources too, so what is the problem. Are you accusing all the Chinese sources to be unreliable? Not to mention sinodefence's material are ofter quoted by many other international publishings. From the previous deal such as mig-17/J-5, Mig-19/J-6 and Mig-21/J-7, the Chinese demands sounds quite consistant.

SAC's agreement with JSC did not cover your first point. Thats just an excuse. The real reason was, since the Chinese found out ways to build the aircraft domestically, and name it J-11B, they thought they could get away with paying royalties to JSC.

They learnt that with J-11A already, no need to wait for J-11B.

About the third point, when SAC entered into a contact with JSC, they already knew the limitations of the aircraft. Entering into a contract without knowing the capabilities of the aircraft is foolish, to say the least. Rescinding on the contract citing such reasons leaves much to doubt about the real intentions, which conveniently surfaced later in the form of J-11B.

Do you think after 10 years China might have different requirements for its fighter fleet when it is facing different threats? China first operated Su-27SK in 1992.

1. SAC should have thought about it earlier. Just like India refused to accept ToT for MiG-29 (for whatever ridiculous reasons).

China requested, Russia refused, and at the time China don't have anything can subsitute for those two. And China does not have any better options at that time, but need to modernize its fleet really bad. So they were left without any choices but to take the deal hoping Russia will change its mind later which never happened.

2, 3, 4, 5. The contract was to help SAC build upto 70% of the aircraft indigenously. SAC simply started making more than 90% of the aircraft indigenously, without paying royalties and naming it J-11B. Thats what happened.

If someone can get a copy of the contract, it will be great. But I am sure that 200 is just number of SKD kits China has order, not the number China can produce. Otherwise what is the point of helping China to produce it with demostic parts at all. One condition of those technology transfer was China is not allowed to export those Su-27s made in China to other countries. I am sure Russian knows well the intention of China wanting to build it independently as it had done with other J-series copied from migs. They just did not expect China can come up with the other 30% that quickly on its own, engine development had always been China aviation industry's Achilles' heel.

6. China now already had the J-11B. So why pay money?

Su-27SKM is much more advanced than Su-27SK.If you claim J-11B is just a demostic version of Su-27SK, then why doesn't China buy couple of Su-27SKMs and start to make copy of those.

 

[dingyibvs]

The J-11 is still an SU-27 airframe--it makes no difference if the airframe uses more composites or whatever. Sukhoi transfered technology and help setup the factories that produce the the J-11. Let me drive the point home, if Egypt, for example, got TOT to produce the J-10 and Egypt went over the quota and started producing unauthorized aircraft what then?

Then nothing. Are you gonna copyright the single fuselage + two wings design too? Did apple sue firefox for adding widgets(or whatever they call it)?

 

[SomeGuy]

No one refutes that fact. The problem is IPR violation by secretly producing J-11B.

Tell me what would be the difference if China license produced all 200 J-11 and then later upgraded these same J-11 to J-11B standard?

Would that be IPR violation?

Would you be happier if they pursued that avenue?

Ah! The quintessential inside-outside argument. Thats the only argument you chini people fall back on. How many of you guys have really looked inside the J-11B/J-15 and compared that with the insides of a Su-27? Making local copies of Russian tech does not make a new tech. Putting those locally made pieces of machinery inside a J-11B/J-15 does not make a new airplane.

The tech inside J-11B is indigenous tech, not local copies of Russian tech.

If the tech available in China was so advanced, why then even copy the basic Su-27 airframe? Dont you guys have the technology or innovation capability to come up with a new airframe for your future aircraft carriers? Why copy the Su-33? It took 10 fracking years to get that copy working? Says a lot about the level of thinking going on in Chinese academies.

Why do US and Russia keep using the same airframes for the last 30 years?

Seriously, innovation is sorely wanting. And as unfortunate as it may sound, that comes from individuality, not from collective education.

What is your definition of individuality and how does it lead to innovation.

Please show me how somebody who has been "collectively educated" cannot exhibit "individuality" and thus be incapable of innovation.