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J15 clearest pic

Maybe Russian Airforce should also replacing its fleet with Mig-35M instead of Su-35BM, since it exhibits the latest advancements with lower cost. It also can reduce the unit price of Mig-29K and Mig-35 further, since those two share a lot of its components. BTW, has Mig-35 found any customer including Russian Airforce yet?

Not yet, although a few contries are interested from what i have heard.



As if the Mig-29K's production line was kept running before India had made any order.

Mig never stopped work on the Mig-29K, here is an interesting link:

Mikoyan MiG-29K - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

MiG-29K was not ordered into production and only two prototypes were originally built as the Russian Navy preferred the Su-27K in early 1990s. The Mikoyan Design Bureau did not stop its work on the MiG-29K aircraft despite the lack of financing since 1992The programme got a boost in the late 1990s to meet an Indian requirement for a ship-borne fighter following the purchase of a former Soviet aircraft Carrier. It was first received by the Indian Navy in 2009.


What is the use of upgrading an aircraft when its airframe is reaching its service life limit?


It can be done, but it takes alot of time and money, the problem is when stress fractures are found. In any case aircraft can go well beyond their intended service life if they pass expections. Of course, its safer just to purchase new aircraft.
 
here you go......

J-15 prototype was finished, China started the aircraft carrier pilot training

According to 21, reported the latest issue of the Canadian “Chinese Defense Review” magazine, said China has launched aircraft personnel training project, training centers may be located in Huludao.

The article said that as China’s first ship-borne fighter aircraft F -15 manufactured prototype, China will build test base for the Navy, similar to Ukraine’s Navy carrier fighter NITKA as test center. Reported that China’s naval pilot training center, carrier-based fighter aircraft flight test center is most likely located in Liaoning Huludao area.

Huludao already have, “Chinese Navy Flight School,” which is the famous 91 065 troops. Navy helicopters, bombers, transport aircraft pilot training in this. Han and that the future China is likely to fly in the Naval Academy’s structure, the building of carrier-based fighter aircraft flight test center, there may be an independent building a new naval flight test center. But Huludao Xingcheng, Jiyuan Navy land-based aircraft carrier construction of the airport did not find signs of the runway test center.

Han and the founder of Ping Kefu said, “building a new trial airport is very expensive, equal to land the aircraft carrier construction. At present, only Ukraine, United States, the existence of such a test center.” At the same time that the Chinese F -15 fighter flight carrier is facing difficulties because there is no Navy pilots in the flight test center where, in Shaanxi, the Air Force Flight Test Center Yanliang J -15 only testing flight control systems, radar, weapons use and so on.

J-15 prototype was finished, China started the aircraft carrier pilot training | Global Military
 
Actually, it's not THAT difficult to estimate the J-15's capabilities. It's most likely a carrier capable version of the J-11B, like how the Su-33 is a carrier capable version of the Su-27.
 
I think they were only producing the J-11B. So where J-15 comes from?? are they developing a newer version of Su27 instead of procuring the J-11B.
 
I dont know, how your mind works, you are showing me news of T 90 vs Arjun before the trails ..why??? Show the results
(Typical chinese mentality)

here it is
Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90

Now read it, and shut your mouth, i wont entertain again and again to enlighten you, read some, do your homework before you came reply me.

and about russian origin mig 21
firstly didnt you guys used its copy??
secondly i have already told you that its under replacement phase., but than again CHINESE:hitwall::hitwall::hitwall:

Well, I think the only one who can be the judge here for Arjun is the Indian army itself. Are they replacing T-90 with Arjun after the test? The end result speaks for itself.

Let's take some opinions from other neutral sources shouldn't we, and see what others think about this artical and its author.
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?176537-Arjun-tank-outruns-outguns-Russian-T-90

There is nothing wrong with the mig-21, it is a very good aircraft. However the same can not be said about the ones built by India under license by Hindustan Aeronautics in their service record in the Indian airforce. Please see my original post for the reason I am bring up mig-21.
 
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You my friend are woefully wrong. US and Russia attract talent, US from the world over, while Russia harvests its own domestic pool.

Not only are there thousands of students from China studying in western universities but there are thousands upon thousands of domestically trained scientists and engineers.
China is also able to attract chinese scientist/engineers who are citizens of other countries.

Spying and trying to collect information and trying to come up with technology to utilize the knowledge is vastly different from copying a piece of machinery bolt for bolt.

China does both and more.
For example, are the latest J-8 H/F/M variants anything like the original MiG-21 that they're supposed to copy??!!

Copying DOES NOT require a level of sophistication, that most chini brothers are trying to claim. I for one do not buy this malarkey. Period.

It does require a level of sophistication.
If you want to be able to "copy" a 4.5 generation plane, you need to have the domestic ability to produce that plane in the first place.
Imagine what the result would be if you tried to copy a 4.5 gen with 3rd gen tech.

The futlility of 'reinventing' the wheel is known to all. However, one cannot justify the blatant copying and IPR violations as an excuse for not reinventing the wheel. That is plain stupidity.

That's why J-11 was produced under license - A fact some Indians and other haters conveniently forget/ignore.

There is no difference between J11 and J11B. The only difference is that the latter is assembled with parts manufactured solely in China, unlike some of the components being brought in from Russia for J-11A.

Then by your logic, there are no differences between any of the Su-27/Su-30 family because externally they all look the same. :hitwall:

Su-27/J-11 and J-11B may look similar externally but that's where the similarity ends.

However, both still use Russian powerplants, though there are recent attempts by the Chinese to power the aircraft with their 'indigenous' powerplants. These 'indigenous' powerplants are again copies of Russian engines and yet, the Chinese are having trouble to perfect them. If copying requires an advanced technological base, why is that the Chinese cannot perfect a copied engine?

WS-10 is not a copy of Russian engines.
It's an indigenous design based from the cancelled WS-6.

Folding/unfolding wings is a complicated piece of technology and that is why China copied Su-33. Else they would have just make those modifications in the wings of J-11B, isnt it? Tell me any other reason as to why?

Well it seems that is exactly what they have done. To put it simply:

J-15 = J-11B with folding wings and other structural modifications.

So no need to "copy" Su-33 bolt for bolt.
 
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Pakistan should order those at least 50 of them.

What is the use of this in Pakistan's force? It is for carrier operations. I don't think it is for sale anyways. It is a weapon with offensive nature.
 
Tell me would the copied bombs hurt any less?

Yes!! Haven't you heard about the "made in Czechoslovakia" joke about unexploding mortar shells (in WWII- Pacific theater or the Vietnam war - not exactly sure)?
 
Not only are there thousands of students from China studying in western universities but there are thousands upon thousands of domestically trained scientists and engineers.
China is also able to attract chinese scientist/engineers who are citizens of other countries.
Individuality vs heard mentality. Tell me what would nourish innovation?
That's why J-11 was produced under license - A fact some Indians and other haters conveniently forget/ignore.
No one refutes that fact. The problem is IPR violation by secretly producing J-11B.
Then by your logic, there are no differences between any of the Su-27/Su-30 family because externally they all look the same.
Su-27/J-11 and J-11B may look similar externally but that's where the similarity ends.
Ah! The quintessential inside-outside argument. Thats the only argument you chini people fall back on. How many of you guys have really looked inside the J-11B/J-15 and compared that with the insides of a Su-27? Making local copies of Russian tech does not make a new tech. Putting those locally made pieces of machinery inside a J-11B/J-15 does not make a new airplane.

If the tech available in China was so advanced, why then even copy the basic Su-27 airframe? Dont you guys have the technology or innovation capability to come up with a new airframe for your future aircraft carriers? Why copy the Su-33? It took 10 fracking years to get that copy working? Says a lot about the level of thinking going on in Chinese academies.
WS-10 is not a copy of Russian engines.
It's an indigenous design based from the cancelled WS-6.
I stand corrected. That seems to be true.
Well it seems that is exactly what they have done. To put it simply:
J-15 = J-11B with folding wings and other structural modifications.
So no need to "copy" Su-33 bolt for bolt.
So why did Chini people get the Su-33 prototype from Ukraine and study it for 10 years, before developing the J-15? Why didnt they start a parallel design if that was so easy?

Seriously, innovation is sorely wanting. And as unfortunate as it may sound, that comes from individuality, not from collective education.
 
There numerous things US and Soviet had reverse engineered from Nazi Germany, from things as simple as a gas tank to the foundations of all the later rocket as V2.
The German scientist, Von Braun, who made the V2 was given US citizenship and then went on to develop the Saturn V series of rockets which put man on Moon! How is that for copying, eh?
The point is, US respected IPR and they got the guys who developed ideas in the first place to come work for US. Similarly, the Russians too, whisked off some Nazi scientists to work for them in Mother Russia, and gave those scientists whatever they demanded for research.
China just blatantly copies stuff without any regard for IPR!
Totally different from what you are trying to claim.
BTW copying from bolt to bolt is not exactly Chinese style of reverse engineering. Also as someone has pointed out even copying from bolt to bolt requires certain among of industrial sophistication. Even if I hand you a blueprint of a simple radio, can you make it on your own to its factory standard?
Dude, I hear this argument almost everyday! Oh, you require a level of sophistication to even copy, reverse engineering is different from copying, blah blah blah blah, etc etc. IPR violations are serious. What may seem quick fixes for the short term cause serious damage in the long term. These short sighted policies will one day prove to be China's undoing.
I am not going to argue about the number of patents, I am arguing the scientific publishing being cited in the international science world.
Also from the Global Innovation Index China is rank 27th with 0.73 points comparing India's 46th ranking with 0.06 points(it is not a typo, it is 0.06). Also on this chart China's innovation perfomance has a score of 1.32 while India has a score of -0.02
Global Innovation Index
Cross-country Comparison (KAM 2009)
India, beware the China R&D boom
No need to bring India into our discussion. From what I have seen, there are certain things which China has clear advantages in. First- human rights, or the absence thereof - for conducting scientific research on humans, including research on stem cells. Animal rights violations and research involving animals. Those are two most prominent examples as to why some research in China holds importance for more scientifically advanced nations which are held back because of governmental regulations.
Adding better and newer avionics and radar on mig-29 does not make mig-29 a better platform than su-33. Of course the improved mig-29K is going to be better than the decades old Su-33. However same can be done with Su-33, and because it is a big and more powerful airplane, it should have more room for improvement, so the problem here is the cost and the future operating cost itself.

China got its hand on the prototype of Su-33 in 2001. Even after they had the sample with them, it take China almost a decade to figuare out how to fold wings? Dream on...
China studied Su-33 for its designing philisophy for carrier based aircraft. If you think J-15 is just a copy of Su-33 from bolt to bolt, it is laughable at best. Right now, the only thing can be said about J-15 is it looks like su-33 on the outside(Who doesn't in Su-27's family, Su-37 looks like Su-33 as well). I am waiting for its information on its system integration. Once we have that, then let's talk.
ptldM3 has provided detailed discussion as to why your point is wrong.
 
Yes!! Haven't you heard about the "made in Czechoslovakia" joke about unexploding mortar shells (in WWII- Pacific theater or the Vietnam war - not exactly sure)?

Have not heard of that one, but I do recall this incident when I was in India back in 06 - 07. Unfortunately I did not save the newspaper but I recall the Army General refused to use the ordnance or something to the matter.

The Tank Shell That Scared Its Users
June 16, 2006

India has had to scrap $154 million worth of Indian made 125mm tank shells because of production defects. The AMK-340 was built with insufficient quality control. As a result, if the shells are exposed to a lot of heat, the propellant becomes unstable. The result is that the AMK-340 shells sometimes explode in the gun, instead of just moving the projectile out the barrel at high speed. When the shells are stored in the desert (where most Indian tank units are stationed) sun for a little while, the damage is done to some of the shells. Problem is, there's no way to tell which shells are now "bad." As a result, many crews flat out refused to use the AMK-340, or only if they could rig it so the gun was fired while the crew was outside the tank. In the end, the army destroyed 150,000 of the AMK-340s, which cost a little over a thousand dollars each to manufacture.
 
Dude, I hear this argument almost everyday! Oh, you require a level of sophistication to even copy, reverse engineering is different from copying, blah blah blah blah, etc etc. IPR violations are serious. What may seem quick fixes for the short term cause serious damage in the long term. These short sighted policies will one day prove to be China's undoing.

Just on the matter of copycats this link is interesting
Selling Cheap 'Generic' Drugs, India's Copycats Irk Industry - Series - NYTimes.com
I like the part that says
And they are all perfectly legal, at least under Indian law.

No country is perfect.
 
Have not heard of that one, but I do recall this incident when I was in India back in 06 - 07. Unfortunately I did not save the newspaper but I recall the Army General refused to use the ordnance or something to the matter.

The Tank Shell That Scared Its Users
June 16, 2006
Just on the matter of copycats this link is interesting
Selling Cheap 'Generic' Drugs, India's Copycats Irk Industry - Series - NYTimes.com
I like the part that says
And they are all perfectly legal, at least under Indian law.
No country is perfect.

And your point being? Can you provide reliable sources, not a blog post from Strategypage!

How is your second post related to the topic under discussion?

Dont butt in if you dont know what to talk about. Stay on topic. One has the right to remain silent to hide ones stupidity or GTFO.
 
The German scientist, Von Braun, who made the V2 was given US citizenship and then went on to develop the Saturn V series of rockets which put man on Moon! How is that for copying, eh? The point is, US respected IPR and they got the guys who developed ideas in the first place to come work for US. Similarly, the Russians too, whisked off some Nazi scientists to work for them in Mother Russia, and gave those scientists whatever they demanded for research.
I dont think you do a lot of research....ok i never wanted to post this....(as I don't care a s***t after clearing my point) there has been a similar issue between Germany and Russia (I dont know whether you read good news papers and sources of research).....
Russia rejects German claims of industrial espionage
28.06.2010
The Russian government rejected Monday claims made by Berlin that its intelligence services were actively involved in industrial espionage in Germany.

The accusations, made in the annual security report published by the Berlin Interior Ministry on June 21, were "from the Cold War era," Russian Foreign Ministry Spokesman Andrei Nesterenko said according to the Interfax news agency.

In the report, which also highlighted rising left-wing extremist violence and the threat posed by Islamist groups, the ministry said that "states such as Russia and China are engaged in active espionage in economic, scientific and research areas."

"It is deeply odd that for Germany this supposed Russian espionage activity is meant to be as dangerous as the threat posed by Islamist terrorism or right and left-wing extremists," Nesterenko said, DPA reported.
Industrial espionage threatens German companies and jobs 29.06.2010
Companies failing to protect themselves from external attack risk losing their competitive edge. In the information age, the threat of industrial espionage is all too real, with thousands of jobs at stake in Germany.


Some might describe the Cold War era as the good old age of espionage. Everything was clear cut: it was West versus East, capitalism versus communism, and a lone British secret service agent tearing across the silver screen to single-handedly save the world from yet another evil mastermind.



Although James Bond has had several reincarnations since then and the fine art of spying is not dead, in the real world these days it is unlikely to involve a high-speed chase in an Aston Martin.



And when it comes to economic espionage – something that is common in this day and age – the methods are generally a touch more subtle, and the prying eyes may be more familiar than you'd think.



They could easily belong to a dedicated office intern who always offers to stay late, or a friendly business partner with a hidden camera on the belt he wears for his tour of the factory. Or they could belong to a hacker monitoring a Trojan smuggled into the company's computer network on the back of an amusing email attachment.
Threat ‘very real’



There is really no fool-proof way of knowing instantly – and for internationally competitive companies, trusting in the untrustworthy is bound to lead to potentially dire consequences.



Burkhard Even, who runs the federal program for the prevention of commercial espionage, is only too aware of the seriousness of the issue. "From what we have seen, the dangers posed to the German economy through industrial espionage and competitive spying are very real," he said.



The federal program principally aims to support German companies being targeted by spies from foreign secret service agencies. And on that front, at least, the suspects are still from the other side of the Cold War era divide.



Old habits and old adversaries?



"If you're asking me to name names, the intelligence services in two countries in particular spring to mind: Russia and China. But let me make it clear that if we're talking about competitive espionage, I can assure you it happens all over the world," Even explained.



Organizations engaged in spying activities are generally after technology and knowhow, which, according to Berthold Stoppelkamp of the Working Committee on Security and Economy, are extremely valuable sources of capital for the German economy.



"The actual financial damage caused is in the region of 20 billion euros ($24.5 billion)," Stoppelkamp pointed out.



Some experts believe that is a rather conservative estimate, putting the real damage at closer to 50 billion euros. The huge discrepancy can perhaps be explained by the fact that many espionage cases never actually come to light.
Many cases not reported



"Huge numbers of cases go unreported, often because companies have not actually noticed them - that is probably most often the reason,” Even said. ”Or they're afraid that when someone from the Office for the Protection of the Constitution or from the police starts an investigation, that it could leak into the public domain, and ultimately do more harm than good."



Experts say as many as 70,000 jobs in Germany are directly threatened by industrial espionage, not to mention those that are indirectly threatened.



Small German companies often don't know that if they suspect that they are the target of industrial espionage they can call on the country’s secret service for support.



Besides, according to Michael Hange of the Federal Office for Security and Information Technology, there is also a lot of ignorance about how to protect against prying eyes, particularly on the Internet.



Risky bits and bytes



"You need IT security management - a culture of IT security," Hange explained. "You need guidelines. You need to sensitize employees and identify the information which most needs to be protected and then think about encrypting that information so it can't be accessed on the Internet."
Hange's main responsibility is to support public authorities in protecting themselves against espionage, but he also helps private businesses with issues of IT security. And although smaller companies struggle to finance complex security procedures, Hange advises them to take whatever precautions they can.



"Up-to-date virus protection, a firewall is a must, and so are up-to-date versions of standard software," Hange said. "Software weaknesses are always used as a means of attack, which is why it is crucial to use the update services offered by the manufacturers."



Author: Joscha Weber (rb)
Editor: Sam Edmonds
another case between Japan and Russia
Japan Opens Investigation Of Industrial Espionage at Nikon
Associated Press

TOKYO — Tokyo police on Thursday asked prosecutors to investigate a former employee of Nikon Corp. on suspicion of stealing a high-tech device from the electronics company and handing it to a former Russian trade official, officials said.

The Tokyo Metropolitan Police filed papers with the public prosecutors office against the Nikon employee and a former member of Russia’s Trade Representation office in Tokyo, said a police spokesman who spoke on condition of anonymity, citing protocol.

The men, whose names were not disclosed, conspired in the theft of the device, called a variable optical attenuator, the police spokesman said.

The device, which is still in the development stage, is used to help stabilize optical transmissions in long-distance fiber optic communications, Nikon spokeswoman Sayaka Suzuki said.

The former employee is believed to have stolen the device while he worked at Nikon in February last year, and gave it to the Russian trade official, Suzuki said.

Police believe the two men met “dozens of times” and that the Russian official paid the Nikon employee an undisclosed amount for acquiring the device, Kyodo News agency said.

Thursday’s police action came after Nikon, the Tokyo-based maker of cameras and precision instruments, filed a complaint with police against the employee on July 7, Suzuki said.

She said that the employee had left the company for “personal reasons” in March this year.

Police suspect the Russian official, who has already left Japan, may have thought about converting the civilian-use device into a defense technology, Kyodo News agency said.

An official at the Russian Trade Representation office refused to comment on the case.

Nikon said in a statement that it would fully cooperate with a police investigation, while stepping up its in-house management of products and equipment. Suzuki said the company could not disclose at this time how the device, if fully developed, will be used.

It was the sixth case since 1989 that Japanese police have opened into suspected espionage involving members of the Russian trade office.

Last October, police accused a member of the trade office of buying company secrets from a worker at a subsidiary of Japanese electronics maker Toshiba.

The 35-year-old Russian, who arrived in Japan in October 2003 and left in June last year, is thought to have links with Russia’s foreign intelligence service, Kyodo News reported in October.

The 30-year-old Japanese man worked for Toshiba Discrete Semiconductor Technology Corp., and was suspected of selling secrets to the Russian nine times between September 2004 and May 2005 for a total of 1 million yen ($8,700), police said.

Kyodo said the man sold secrets related to a type of semiconductor technology that can be used in radars of military submarines, fighter aircraft or in missile guidance systems. Toshiba, however, said the leaked information was for semiconductors used in digital cameras, mobile phones and electric cookers and had no conceivable military applications.

Kyodo said the Russian posed as an Italian business consultant in his dealings with the Japanese man.

In 1991, a Russian trade official approached executives at a Japanese electronics firm to try to acquire semicondutor chips regulated under the now-defunct Coordinating Committee for Multilateral Export Controls, or COCOM, a watchdog group formed by Western governments in 1949 to prevent the transfer of military-related technology to the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. The official was not charged, Kyodo said.

A different Russian trade official is also suspected of trying to obtain classified information on missile technology from a former member of Japan’s Self-Defense Force in 2002, Kyodo said
I guess now my point would be clear that it is an arena in which everyone has his hands dirty.....hope you understand
 

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