India to acquire 15 US-2i aircraft from Japan after defence minister’s visit

[Capt.Popeye]

The US used seaplanes to great effect during WW2 for both recon and pilot retrieval. Sending out a seaplane to a downed pilot over 100 miles out from the naval group saved numerous lives.

Unfortunately they have one drawback.
When the waves in the ocean get high they can't land.

This is why the US now uses Sea Knight and Sea Stallion helicopters with long winches (and now Ospreys) for retrieval.

Seaplanes still make great ocean recon vehicles.

You mean the PBY Catalinas and the Short Sunderland in the role of SAR; though the Catalinas performed more outstandingly.

So far as MR is concerned; with increasingly ranged aircraft, there is no need for Seaplanes to perform this role. And do remember that the payload of a Seaplane is necessarily lesser than that of a land-based aircraft unless one is looking to make a modern version of the Spruce Goose.
In WW2, Seaplanes like the Walrus in the RN provided organic recon. capabilities to Capital Ships. But only because Rotorcraft were non-existent.
The Walrus for instance would be launched off a Ship's catapult, make its flight and land on the sea in the vicinity of its mother-ship. Then would be lifted back on board on to the Catapult with the ship's crane. But if the sea turned choppy during its flight duration, then the seaplane could become a goner.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@hari sud

 

[Abingdonboy]

 

[hari sud]

Thank you Abingdonboy.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

3 meters isn't going to cut it.

Indian Ocean wave

 

[Capt.Popeye]

3 meters isn't going to cut it.

Indian Ocean wave

Hi @Peter C; the Indian Ocean is a very vast expanse of Ocean right down to Antarctica. So, which bit of the IOR were you attempting to depict in that Video?
And which is likely to be the Operational Area for the Shin-Meiwas in the IOR?

The Atlantic or the Pacific can get as bad or worse than that, So can you explain how the PBY Catalinas were able to operate there? Keep in mind that the Catalinas had an even lower freeboard than the Shin-Meiwas do.

Nope; your video does'nt swing it!

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

>Keep in mind that the Catalinas had an even lower freeboard than the Shin-Meiwas do.

I know...that's why the US switched to helicopters for search and rescue. It was too dangerous to land in anything but calm seas. You have to be crazy to try to land with swells. One sudden wave into your props and that's that. 3 meters basically means very calm seas.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

>Keep in mind that the Catalinas had an even lower freeboard than the Shin-Meiwas do.

I know...that's why the US switched to helicopters for search and rescue. It was too dangerous to land in anything but calm seas. You have to be crazy to try to land with swells. One sudden wave into your props and that's that. 3 meters basically means very calm seas.

Hello again @Peter C;
Your response shows your unfamiliarity with a number of things:
1. Sea States in different conditions
2. Sea States in different parts of the IOR in different Seasons
(which is very vast as I explained earlier) as well as the projected area of Ops for the Shin-Meiwas
3. How even the older Amphibs such as the Catalinas operated

Your post in the underlined part is absurd. 3 meters is abt. 10 ft of wave height; thats hardly calm seas!!

Now refer to the Beaufort Scale of Sea States:

Beaufort No.6 has the following criteria: Description:-Strong Breeze, Wind Speed:- 22 to 27 kts; Wave Height:- 3 to 4 meters (9-13 feet), Sea Conditions:-Long waves begin to form. White foam crests are very frequent. Some airborne spray is present.

Lets now take a look at what Calm Seas mean:
Beaufort No.0, which has the following criteria: Description:- Calm, Wind Speed:- <1 kt, Wave Height:- <0 ft, Sea Conditions:- Flat.

Your Video did not swing it, nor did your explanation.

 

[li0nheart]

One thing that comes in mind hearing this news...

TaleSpin!!!

Let the adventure begin!
PS- Sorry, couldn't control myself!

 

[cloud_9]

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Hello again @Peter C;
Your response shows your unfamiliarity with a number of things:
1. Sea States in different conditions
2. Sea States in different parts of the IOR in different Seasons
(which is very vast as I explained earlier) as well as the projected area of Ops for the Shin-Meiwas
3. How even the older Amphibs such as the Catalinas operated
.

Whatever. All I'm trying to say is seaplanes are GREAT in many situations. However landing at NIGHT in erratic SWELLS using only night vision goggles to judge nearby wave heights shows there are some serious limitations. This basically killed the use of seaplanes by the US navy for search and rescue.

 

[he-man]

15 seems like an over kill to me.

anyone?

 

[he-man]

Well I don't mean buy all 50 at once ............a production line of 5-10 per year will give us a nice 10-15 years time frame. I am sure a country like India needs more than 50. In fact This aircraft is a good means for civilian transport to A&C island and Lakshwadeep Island. I really see the need to have at least 100 of these between the IN, CG and Civil aviation.

The important point is setting up a production line in India which is feasible only when we can envision a larger fleet.

Second, Maritime reconnaissance does not necessarily mean it has to be armed. Which is why I mentioned surveillance radar and EW. Recent changes in Japan's constitution will support this upgrade.

IN needs to demonstrate some vision and negotiate building this aircraft in India.

?


the point is had we got something like a bereiv (spare my spelling)we could have armed it too

that could serve 2 purposes and is more versatile

this decision is purely to appease japanese and am fine with it but fact is it will have limited use without weapons

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Whatever. All I'm trying to say is seaplanes are GREAT in many situations. However landing at NIGHT in erratic SWELLS using only night vision goggles to judge nearby wave heights shows there are some serious limitations. This basically killed the use of seaplanes by the US navy for search and rescue.

@Peter C
I'm afraid that does not really wash.
Let me explain; since you may be unaware of some things
1. Wave height estimation today is much easier than ever before, regardless of day/night conditions thanks to Radar and FLIR. Individual assessment of sea conditions is less required. Even Remote Sensing Satellites are rather accurate in estimating Sea-Surface conditions today.
2. This is the important thing now; you are mistaking Sea-Planes for Amphibians.
Sea-Planes are float-planes where their buoyancy comes only from their floats, therefore Sea-Planes are inherently much more unstable hydrodynamically. On the other hand, the Planes that are the subject of this thread are Amphibians. They derive their buoyancy from their fuselage/hulls. More Waterplane Areas, better Cross-Sectional Design (see the posts above by @Abingdonboy to understand) and much more stable hydrodynamically. Little wonder that the Shin-Meiwas can operate in upto Beaufort Sea-State 6 (which I've explained earlier). And not Calm Seas (Sea-State 0) as you claimed.

Even your understanding of Sea-Conditions is completely flawed. It will not hurt you to read though (at least some of) the posts above. You'll get better informed.

About Helos being a substitute for fixed-wing Amphibs; even they are poor substutes.
1. Because of very limited range, which cannot be completely obviated by AAR
2. Inability to alight on water
3. Very little payload compared to fixed-wing
4. Finally, but not least; poorer aerodynamics compared to fixed-wing
Hence the USCG has to use a version of the C-130s for LRSAR. They can only fly to the scene, locate survivor(s), air-drop Survival Eqpt and assist other Surface Assets to vector/home-in to the location for final recovery. The V-22 Osprey can obviate some of those problems but even for that aircraft to winch-in survivor(s) is extremely difficult in rough seas or anything above 4-5 feet of chop. Thats also rather optimistic really.

About Spray etc; the Shin-Meiwa has the suppression measures inbuilt into the hull design which are further refinements of earlier Amphibs like the Catalinas and Shorts Sunderland before.
Apart from the High-Wing design and Gull-Wings that place the Engines and props well above the water-line.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

@Peter C
I'm afraid that does not really wash.
Let me explain; since you may be unaware of some things and props well above the water-line.

Dude why are you being silly about things? I never said these planes are completely useless? Most of the time they will work FINE. All I am saying is usually during a search and rescue things are ALREADY bad. I really wish ships would always sink or pilots bail out in nice weather but the fact of the matter is most of the time some ship is in trouble or somebody really needs help is when the weather is really really BAD...that's usually WHY they are in trouble in the first place!! People usually don't make distress calls on nice sunny days!

3 Meters is not good enough because bad weather is usually the reason you need a rescue in the first place. This is video extreme but you seem to not be understanding what I'm driving at.

They use winches to rescue people in the above situations. They do it ALL the time. Most of the time people are being rescued the weather is BAD which is why they need rescuing.