$1.65-bn SAR aircraft deal likely to take off during Modi’s Japan visit

[Abingdonboy]

lol, yes, i remember reading about that.

Incidentally, while Narendra Modi was Governor of Gujarat, he made a policy to encourage international investments in the state, he has a very vibrant, and good working relationship with Japan and Japanese.

Indeed Modi seems very fond of Japan, let's see what these two dynamic and empowered leaders in Japan and India can do together.....

 

[Bang Galore]

Care to expand bro? $1.65BN isn't much to India. India doesn't need soft loans or aid.

Depends on what else you plan on purchasing. The Japanese are likely to offer soft loans for this & many other purchases. $1.65 billion may not seem like too much, it can certainly help you in getting another deal of that amount where hard cash has to be put down. Look long term, we need a much quicker ramping up of our capabilities.Softer financial terms help you do that quickly while spreading out the cost over a much longer period.

 

[Indo-guy]

Care to expand bro? $1.65BN isn't much to India.

is it ?

Depends on what else you plan on purchasing. The Japanese are likely to offer soft loans for this & many other purchases. $1.65 billion may not seem like too much, it can certainly help you in getting another deal of that amount where hard cash has to be put down. Look long term, we need a much quicker ramping up of our capabilities.Softer financial terms help you do that quickly while spreading out the cost over a much longer period.

we already have currency swap agreement in place.
so we can save forex ...but irrespective of that 1.5 billion dollar equivalent money is still a big bill for 15 of these aircrafts .

Which was incredibly foolish in my opinion.

Now don't tell me that you wanted india to buy F35s and get entangled with US !

 

[Bang Galore]

Now don't tell me that you wanted india to buy F35s and get entangled with US !

I was thinking of the F-18's for now but we get entangled anyways. If you are as concerned about money as you are, you surely know that the French do a lot of squeezing. You worry about whether or not we need the US-2 at that price, just think about how much we paid the French for the M2k upgrade and you start getting a clearer picture. This deal with the Japanese will be the first of many, we will just have to wait & watch.

In my opinion, we should have looked at the US offer in the MMRCA tender, we squandered a chance there & as a result Indo-US relations are a lot colder now. (If you think that is no problem, be sure that the chill has cost the Indian economy a heck a lot of money)

 

[Abingdonboy]

I was thinking of the F-18's for now but we get entangled anyways. If you are as concerned about money as you are, you surely know that the French do a lot of squeezing. You worry about whether or not we need the US-2 at that price, just think about how much we paid the French for the M2k upgrade and you start getting a clearer picture. This deal with the Japanese will be the first of many, we will just have to wait & watch.

In my opinion, we should have looked at the US offer in the MMRCA tender, we squandered a chance there & as a result Indo-US relations are a lot colder now. (If you think that is no problem, be sure that the chill has cost the Indian economy a heck a lot of money)

The F-18 didn't meet the TECHNICAL criteria set by the IAF. If the rules had been bent for the US then the whole competition would have gone down the pan. There was a bar and the US fighters failed to reach it.

Not to mention that a major part of the MMRCA deal is not the fighter itself but the industrial benefits the winning fighter would bring and the US was always very opposed to full ToT on the key tech like radars and such. I'm glad the US birds were eliminated- for transport a/c and MPAs the US is good but not for frontline fighters.

 

[Indo-guy]

I was thinking of the F-18's for now but we get entangled anyways. If you are as concerned about money as you are, you surely know that the French do a lot of squeezing. You worry about whether or not we need the US-2 at that price, just think about how much we paid the French for the M2k upgrade and you start getting a clearer picture. This deal with the Japanese will be the first of many, we will just have to wait & watch.

In my opinion, we should have looked at the US offer in the MMRCA tender, we squandered a chance there & as a result Indo-US relations are a lot colder now. (If you think that is no problem, be sure that the chill has cost the Indian economy a heck a lot of money)

I am happy about the chill in overall relations between India and US.

we need to inject some reality time to time in our senses ....

I am not the advocate of American entanglement ...because I am wary of deadly consequences that American embrace can bring.

I am for calculated business like relations ...not too friendly ...not too antagonistic .

Just close enough but not too much.

M2k upgrade was , yes too much....does that mean we go on repeating similar mistakes again and again ?

at least Mirage 2k served us well in kargil .

I am not questioning strengths of this craft ..just that the 1.5 billion bill for just SAR craft that too at this point of time when economy is still reeling ....and we have so many major deal stalled due to funds crunch ...


when we go for shopping ...everything looks good ...we do not buy all that good or best stuff we come across. we look at our pockets ..set our priorities and if our budget is tight then we open our purse only for the immediate and essential needs .

is 1.5 billion dollar deal for 15 SAR aircrafts our immediate need and priority ???

I think...it's big NO .

 

[Bang Galore]

I am happy about the chill I overall relations between India and US.

we need to inject some reality time to time in our senses ....

I am not the advocate of American entanglement ...because I am aware of deadly consequences American embrace can bring.

I am for calculated business like relations ...not too friendly ...not too antagonistic .

Just close enough but not too much.

M2k upgrade was , yes too much....does that mean we go on repeating similar mistakes again and again ?

at least Mirage 2k served us well in kargil .

I am not questioning strengths of this craft ..just that the 1.5 billion bill for just SAR craft that too at this point of time when economy is still reeling ....and we have so many major deal stalled due to funds crunch ...

Your position is not based on logical reasoning nor on economics. You may like the chill but it costs India heavily, far more than the $1.65 billion you are worried about.

As for you saying the M2k served us well in kargil, that it did but the Mig-21 served us equally well at an earlier time. Not about to suggest we hold on to that forever, are you?

The F-18 didn't meet the TECHNICAL criteria set by the IAF. If the rules had been bent for the US then the whole competition would have gone down the pan. There was a bar and the US fighters failed to reach it.

Not to mention that a major part of the MMRCA deal is not the fighter itself but the industrial benefits the winning fighter would bring and the US was always very opposed to full ToT on the key tech like radars and such. I'm glad the US birds were eliminated- for transport a/c and MPAs the US is good but not for frontline fighters.

My point is not about the technical parameters and whether the rules should have been bent for the U.S.,(it would be silly to suggest that the F-18 is an useless aircraft), it is about a lack of ability to see the big picture. Any contract could have been split & we would have been better served if we had played our cards better. As far as ToT, wondering whether you are seeing what all issues have "suddenly" cropped up in the dealing with the French. I believe the Rafale will cost us heavily, great platform but we are going to have our testicles squeezed for the money.

 

[Indo-guy]

Your position is not based on logical reasoning nor on economics. You may like the chill but it costs India heavily, far more than the $1.65 billion you are worried about.

As for you saying the M2k served us well in kargil, that it did but the Mig-21 served us equally well at an earlier time. Not about to suggest we hold on to that forever, are you?

where did I say that we hold on to M2k forever ..in fact I said the mistakes we repeated by paying exorbitant fees for M2k upgrade should not be repeated .

as far as my position on Indo-Us relations are concerned ...despite my strong dislike for US , I am for closer relations with US . But I do not belong to the league of those blind love struck Romeos who believe in romancing with perennial flirt like US ....

The strategic entanglement with US will be disastrous for India .

US is known to arm-twist its allies ...and extract full price of it's companionship .

I am against getting into relation ship with a country which is absolutely self centered and self obsessed and will go at any length to defend its minor interests even at cost of major interests of its closest and deepest allies .

I do not believe in your diagnosis of Indian economy suffering miserably because of chill in Indo-US relations...symptoms are correct but not the diagnosis .

The mess Indian economy finds itself in is largely self created .
Let us not blame US for our miseries ...

 

[Abingdonboy]

As far as ToT, wondering whether you are seeing what all issues have "suddenly" cropped up in the dealing with the French.

Most of it was to do with work share agreements and liabilities not ToT or the French reneging on their obligations.

. I believe the Rafale will cost us heavily, great platform but we are going to have our testicles squeezed for the money.

Pure conjecture bro.

My point is not about the technical parameters and whether the rules should have been bent for the U.S.,(it would be silly to suggest that the F-18 is an useless aircraft), it is about a lack of ability to see the big picture. Any contract could have been split & we would have been better served if we had played our cards better

It was an apolitical purchase from day 1. If this was about making partnerships then the GoI could've taken a bigger part in this but it was left to the IAF to get what THEY wanted.


Going for a split purchase has been discussed before and my take on this is that it is a bad idea- you're just adding to the logistical headache the IAF ALREADY faces and adding yet another fighter type to be operated and inducted is asking too much of the IAF.

I am only really looking at this from the IAF's point of view and yes perhaps not looking at the bigger picture but my interest is seeing the Indian Mil gets what best suits them. Defence isn't something India's political leadership can be messing around in, not in the neighbourhood India inhabits. The needs of the forces is paramount.

 

[Bang Galore]

where did I say that we hold on to M2k forever ..in fact I said the mistakes we repeated by paying exorbitant fees for M2k upgrade should not be repeated .

as far as my position on Indo-Us relations are concerned ...despite my strong dislike for US , I am for closer relations with US . But I do not belong to the league of those blind love struck Romeos who believe in romancing with perennial flirt like US ....

The strategic entanglement with US will be disastrous for India .

US is known to arm-twist its allies ...and extract full price of it's companionship .

I am against getting into relation ship with a country which is absolutely self centered and self obsessed and will go at any length to defend its minor interests even at cost of major interests of its closest and deepest allies .

I do not believe in your diagnosis of Indian economy suffering miserably because of chill in Indo-US relations...symptoms are correct but not the diagnosis .

The mess Indian economy finds itself in is largely self created .
Let us not blame US for our miseries ...

It is not about belief, India is paying an economic price with the chill (not suggesting that our problems are from that). Not very painful but unnecessary in my view. U.S. arm twisting allies is irrelevant, none were India's size nor with India's options. Whatever we do, stupidity is not an option. We have to deal with the geo-politics as we find it, the U.S. is simply necessary there. There is no other substitute. Anyone thinking otherwise is being incredibly muddle headed. The U.S. went out of their way on the nuclear deal and we have been lacking in reciprocity. That's simply not done, not at this level.

 

[Bang Galore]

Most of it was to do with work share agreements and liabilities not ToT or the French reneging on their obligations.

Everything is about something, how you look at it is dependent on how you wish to approach it.

Pure conjecture bro.

Hardly. Guaranteed. enough lessons from prior experience.

It was an apolitical purchase from day 1. If this was about making partnerships then the GoI could've taken a bigger part in this but it was left to the IAF to get what THEY wanted.

They should have, is my opinion.

Going for a split purchase has been discussed before and my take on this is that it is a bad idea- you're just adding to the logistical headache the IAF ALREADY faces and adding yet another fighter type to be operated and inducted is asking too much of the IAF.

Logistical headaches are over rated in my view, I actually have the opposite opinion that we simply cannot afford to put all our eggs in any one basket. Else, we pay a pretty price. That analysis works best if you are producing your own aircraft, or if you have some kind of an iron clad alliance. We are still struggling with the Russian hangover, French (or American or other European) won't feel any better. As long as we are buying foreign stuff, we are better served if a potential deal is always on the horizon. Keeps everyone (potential suppliers) on their toes and relatively honest, they want those deals, don't they? Otherwise, you will end up being dictated to on the upgrades and the weapons(M2k is a good example, hardly need that in much larger numbers)

I am only really looking at this from the IAF's point of view and yes perhaps not looking at the bigger picture but my interest is seeing the Indian Mil gets what best suits them. Defence isn't something India's political leadership can be messing around in, not in the neighbourhood India inhabits. The needs of the forces is paramount.

Such a thing as the IAF view alone does not exist in the real world, all international deals have to take in account consequences & benefits of each action. Antony ignored the PM's views on this and went about it his own way. The neighbourhood wouldn't have looked much different if the choice was F-18's instead of the Rafale.

 

[Indo-guy]

It is not about belief, India is paying an economic price with the chill (not suggesting that our problems are from that). Not very painful but unnecessary in my view. U.S. arm twisting allies is irrelevant, none were India's size nor with India's options. Whatever we do, stupidity is not an option. We have to deal with the geo-politics as we find it, the U.S. is simply necessary there. There is no other substitute. Anyone thinking otherwise is being incredibly muddle headed. The U.S. went out of their way on the nuclear deal and we have been lacking in reciprocity. That's simply not done, not at this level.

Nuclear deal was result of bilateral co-operation . India also went big in its way . US betrayed India by putting US senate top over 123 agreement once again making it clear when it comes to US it will give upper hand to its own laws over and above that of Bilateral agreement . Indian parliament gave fitting reply by enacting nuclear liability law .

Treating geopolitics doesn't mean subjugating oneself .

Did I say that I am against indo-US cooperation ?

all I am saying that I am against the ideas of people like you who talk of total sell out to US against national interests just as you advocated sealing MMRCA deal with US just to get close to US ...

I am against such blind advances .

US went out of its way to get NSG clearance for india ...so what ?

It was vying for the major share in prospective nuclear business in the second most populous country in the world .

It was only facilitating its own interests ....by getting NSG clearance for India .

I am surprised how people are easily fooled by such machinations .


US will go any length to sub serve it's interests .


Have you forgotten this is the same US which has let China and Pakistan make mockery of NSG by allowing to grandfather the agreement to build further nuclear reactors ?

Have you forgotten it is the same US that refused India and Russia to seal similar grandfathering deal ?

this is the same US which deliberately let China do nuclear proliferation to Pakistan ?

This is the same US which antagonized India in almost every international forum to keep its ally Pakistan in good humor ???


US is one country that all countries on back of this earth needs to be wary and careful with .

 

[Tshering22]

Correct. There is a new paradigm shift in our policy as well, we are now also focusing more on South Asia. In particular interest is to further our relations with India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka.
We have been trying to build relations with not only Modi, but also Hasina in Bangladesh. As well, we have been trying to bolster our trade relations with Pakistan and helping them in their infrastructure projects, namely the subsidizing of their electrical sources. For us, there is much opportunity to build in South Asia.

You need to teach us on how you manage 24*7 power in Japan. We badly need power all day all year across India.

 

[Bang Galore]

Nuclear deal was result of bilateral co-operation . India also went big in its way . US betrayed India by putting US senate top over 123 agreement once again making it clear when it comes to US it will give upper hand to its own laws over and above that of Bilateral agreement . Indian parliament gave fitting reply by enacting nuclear liability law .

That is incredibly cussed. No one and I mean no one could have got us that deal but the U.S. (we owe George Bush plenty for that) And what exactly did we do? We did nothing for the U.S. and got the deal of a lifetime.

I am surprised how people are easily fooled by such machinations .

Easy my friend, calling others fools doesn't make it so.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Such a thing as the IAF view alone does not exist in the real world, all international deals have to take in account consequences & benefits of each action. Antony ignored the PM's views on this and went about it his own way. The neighbourhood wouldn't have looked much different if the choice was F-18's instead of the Rafale.

Maybe.
Maybe even MMS might have tilted that way. But Antony did not. He just stuck to the book which was the criteria (600 of them?) for the down-select which was the technical appraisal done by the IAF.
Probably this was/is the first weapon selection that had no (if any) extraneous considerations, that I know of. Nearly every other one had something or the other tagged on.