$1.65-bn SAR aircraft deal likely to take off during Modi’s Japan visit

[godofwar]

Having had to host American forces on Japanese soil ..which Japanese people itself resent ....but can't get rid of it ...Don't you think that virtually amounts to servitude .

Forget the semantics ...but look at purely for the facts.

Even if Japan wishes ...can it get rid of US .

It is for this reason I have always warned of getting too close with US .

Once you get entangled with that country ...it's not easy to get rid off .

US has always conquest countries and then subsequently subjugated them forever .

( they have to be credited for repeating this feat )

all of the countries that US conquested after disastrous military campaigns ...were turned Pro Us ...how is that Us has managed to do that ....

In that question lies the answers to why US is sole superpower .

Believe me after unbelievable carnage of Philipino people in War of Phillipines ....today Philipinos consider US as the best friend .

Despite humiliating defeat and atomic explosions Japanese today consider US as great ally ???

This is not question of intelligence of Japanese people ...this question of American strategy which has worked almost all the time where in after having won particular country they have always managed to turn into virtually vassal Pro US state ....


Your statement that US is not imposing its will ...is fallacious .

Well US has made itself indispensable ....and have left no real choice to Japan .

I hope you will understand what I am trying to say .

Denial of second choice ...is almost same as coercion of first choice !

US is no different from any other country in that regard.
Its a dog-eat-dog world ( no pun intended) : p

China is doing the same to Pakistan, India to Bhutan.
Expecting a sense of fairness or justice in the realm of geopolitics is naivety of the highest order in my humble opinion.

You can't villify US for trying to further its selfish interests by hook or by crook when every country on this planet, including our own, is doing the same thing.
Its just that US does it better than everyone else, for now.

 

[Indo-guy]

Its pretty silly to argue whether japan should be called an ally or a buddy of the US, dont you think ?

Concepts like friendship are not applicable to international relations in the traditional sense, else we would have seen countries getting married to each other.

Nations are very much like human beings ...
at least I believe in so .

It's only matter of perspective !!!



Nations come together ....get apart ...quarrel with each other ..destroy each other ...or to put in human context ..kill each other .

Nations also known to befriend ...help each other .

And concepts like friendship are applicable to international relations ....

and who told you that Nations don't marry .... ???

US is no different from any other country in that regard.
Its a dog-eat-dog world ( no pun intended) : p

China is doing the same to Pakistan, India to Bhutan.
Expecting a sense of fairness or justice in the realm of geopolitics is naivety of the highest order in my humble opinion.

You can't villify US for trying to further its selfish interests by hook or by crook when every country on this planet, including our own, is doing the same thing.
Its just that US does it better than everyone else, for now.

No . You are once again wrong ( in my opinion )

India is not 'doing' to Bhutan what China is doing to Pakistan . or America is doing to Pakistan ....

Please , India is not US . How can you ever measure Indo- Bhutanese relations in same pane as that of Sino-Pakistani relations ???

US is a different from many other countries ...and has unique traits as individuals do have ....

 

[godofwar]

Nations are very much like human beings ...
at least I believe in so .

It's only matter of perspective !!!



Nations come together ....get apart ...quarrel with each other ..destroy each other ...or to put in human context ..kill each other .

Nations also known to befriend ...help each other .

And concepts like friendship are applicable to international relations ....

and who told you that Nations don't marry .... ???

Well I differ on that.
If nations were like humans India would never have forgiven England and would probably have nuked London by now.

 

[Indo-guy]

Well I differ on that.
If nations were like humans India would never have forgiven England and would probably have nuked London by now.

wrong .

India was not the only country that was subjected to colonial rule .

Worse things have been perpetrated by ruling countries ..on their colonies .

what British did to india was rather moderate in contrast to what British/ Europeans did to Red Indians ....!

Red Indians as a country were destroyed , looted, raped , exterminated ...such that they are rendered insignificant minority in their own country ....

and remember There are humans like India who forgive ...and move on .


Each man is a nation within ...and each nation is a man outward ....

It takes only a matter of perspective to understand that ...!

 

[godofwar]

wrong .

India was not the only country that was subjected to colonial rule .

Worse things have been perpetrated by ruling countries ..on their colonies .

what British did to india was rather moderate in contrast to what British/ Europeans did to Red Indians ....!

Red Indians as a country were destroyed , looted, raped , exterminated ...such that they are rendered insignificant minority in their own country ....

and remember There are humans like India who forgive ...and move on .


Each man is a nation within ...and each nation is a man outward ....

It takes only a matter of perspective to understand that ...!

People are rigid with fixed personalities.
Nations on the other hand are always changing, sometimes radically so.

I am not arguing whether you can see international relations from the prism of human relationships, I am only arguing that such a comparison is wrong, or atleast not 100% correct

 

[Indo-guy]

People are rigid with fixed personalities.
Nations on the other hand are always changing, sometimes radically so.

I am not arguing whether you can see international relations from the prism of human relationships, I am only arguing that such a comparison is wrong, or atleast not 100% correct

You are wrong once again .
People have personalities ..but they are nor rigid and fixed like robots.

If nations are always changing and sometimes radically ..so are the people !

You can and you should see international relations from prism of human relationships ...
Because then you will be able to forecast and forebode their course based on understanding of human psychological dynamics .

Nothing can be 100 % correct ..so what ?

ever heard of probabilities ...?

If you read the Game theory for which Mr Nash got nobel prize ..you will understand how human based rules can be expounded to corporations , groups , nations , communities ..to predictably forecast outcomes of their interactions .

 

[godofwar]

You are wrong once again .
People have personalities ..but they are nor rigid and fixed like robots.

If nations are always changing and sometimes radically ..so are the people !

Well this post completes the circle of the argument in a very elegant way.
Here is the first post that I quoted in this thread

Japan is a strange country ...although I advocate closer ties with Japan.

Relations with Japan will always be business like ....Japan can never be anybody's buddy .

Seems you are in agreement with me afterall that Japan can, in fact, be India's buddy.

 

[Indo-guy]

Well this post completes the circle of the argument in a very elegant way.
Here is the first post that I quoted in this thread


Seems you are in agreement with me afterall that Japan can, in fact, be India's buddy.

Well radical change will be required for Japan to be India's buddy .

I do not see that happening. I will not rule it out. But I see it's unlikely. Given the Japan's complex history ...

First off all let us see if Abe manages to overturn Japan's self defeating constitution ...

It was adopted in post war scenario in which Japan had ignominy of total surrender to allied forces . A lot has changed since then ...

The 6 decade old constitution that was partly forced upon Japan and partly self imposed ... seriously undermines Japan's security and makes it dependent on US for its defence .

Japan has to undertake that radical change first ...


Till that remote future ..India should try to be close partner with japan rather than try to be buddy ...

We can't have China-Pakistan like buddy relationship with Japan !

Because India is not Pakistan and Japan is not like China ....

 

[godofwar]

If you read the Game theory for which Mr Nash got nobel prize ..you will understand how human based rules can be expounded to corporations , groups , nations , communities ..to predictably forecast outcomes of their interactions .

Thats exactly what I am saying.Human interaction can be expounded on any entity which is controlled by humans and will give somewhat predictable results.Who would deny that /
Its a very obvious/intuitive thing.
But to say international relations are same as inter personal relations is plain wrong.

 

[godofwar]

Till that remote future ..India should try to be close partner with japan rather than try to be buddy ...

We can't have China-Pakistan like buddy relationship with Japan !

Because India is not Pakistan and Japan is not like China ....

Again I do not understand in what context do you use terms like close partner and buddy ?
I reiterate - there are no buddies in international relations.
If you think China will not throw Pakistan under the bus if it suited them or vice-versa then you are mistaken.
Take US-Pak relationship as an example and extrapolate it to China- Pak relationship
It is possible China will be bombing Pakistan 20 years from now.

 

[sancho]

Do you not also think it is important the amphibian is also actually able to serve in the majority of the IOR?

That depends on IN's requirement not on vendors PR, but you fall to the same when Boeing published their PR about CH47, while Uttarakhand showed us the reality of the decision to take the Chinook and not evaluate other future options, which were not shown by Boeing.

The Be 200 might be able to carry more and fly faster but if it can't actually land in the IOR's waters then it is a bit pointless is it not sir?

As mentioned above, that depends on IN's requirements and if there is a need for them to use the amphibians as logistic support aircrafts, which I highly doubt and it would be as pointless to use the US 2 in such a role only because it can operate in rougher see, but can't carry any useful cargo, since it was not designed to do that, but for SAR!

Again, the primary role of these aircrafts is meant to be SAR around our coastlines and A&N, with a secondary importance on operating them around the A&N Islands in transport roles and here the US 2 is most likely the most suitable choice, but does this limited importance for defence justify such a price tag?[/quote]

So how many Aircrafts?

From the opening article:

A pending deal involving purchase of 15 ShinMaywa US-2i Amphibious and Rescue (SAR) aircraft

 

[Indo-guy]

Again I do not understand in what context do you use terms like close partner and buddy ?
I reiterate - there are no buddies in international relations.
If you think China will not throw Pakistan under the bus if it suited them or vice-versa then you are mistaken.
Take US-Pak relationship as an example and extrapolate it to China- Pak relationship
It is possible China will be bombing Pakistan 20 years from now.

It is upto you to interpret and what you call the inter- state relations - buddy, ally or whatever .
But you will agree that the convergence of interests and solid alliance that US-UK relations or for that matter Sino-Pak relations have shown is noteworthy .

China will not throw Pakistan under the bus ..off course . why it should when it serves such an important anti India bulwark ?
Since India is here to stay in competition with China for foreseeable future ...so will be the Sino-Pak bonhomie .

Everything is possible ...but I do not see China bombing Pakistan 20 years from now.

Quote me after 20 years on PDF ...if China indeed starts bombing Pakistan. ( assuming after 20 years all of us including PDF will exist the way it is ) . Lol .

 

[sancho]

Just checked for some other prices for comparison:

Russian Military Orders 6 Be-200 Amphibious Plane

...The contract is worth 8.4 billion rubles [$268 million],” UAC said in a statement...

Russian Military Orders 6 Be-200 Amphibious Planes | Defense | RIA Novosti

Bombardier Announces Order for Amphibious Aircraft

Montréal, March 26, 2014 – Bombardier Aerospace announced today that it has signed a firm purchase agreement with the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador for two Bombardier 415 amphibious aircraft. The transaction is valued at approximately $73.7 million US, based on list price, and includes various product enhancements. Deliveries of the aircraft will begin during the second quarter of 2014 and will continue in 2015...

Bombardier Announces Order for Amphibious Aircraft - Bombardier

Based on these reports the unit cost would be:

US 2 - $110 million (x 15 for IN = $1.65 billion)
Be 200 - $44.6 million (x 15 for IN = $669 million)
Bombardier 415 - $36.8 millions (x 15 for IN = $552 million)

 

[Indo-guy]

Just checked for some other prizes for comparison:



Russian Military Orders 6 Be-200 Amphibious Planes | Defense | RIA Novosti




Bombardier Announces Order for Amphibious Aircraft - Bombardier

Based on these reports the unit cost would be:

US 2 - $110 million (x 15 for IN = $1.65 billion)
Be 200 - $44.6 million (x 15 for IN = $669 million)
Bombardier 415 - $36.8 millions (x 15 for IN = $552 million)

simply do not understand why we are pursuing this deal ....
as far as politico-strategic reasons are concerned ...when it came to MMRCA we did not give in to even Obama's charm offensive .

same argument was forwarded that time that India missed opportunity to forge closer ties by awarding MMRCA deal to USA .
we stuck to our guns and selected the best among all sheerly on technical basis and then opted for the lowest bidder .

why are we eager to push for such a costly deal when the said money can be better utilized in other ways ?


to put in perspective people made huge hue and cry when original bill for Gorshkov swelled up from 800 million $ to 2.3 billion dollar .

and now India is willing to shell out 1.5 billion $ for these 15 planes ...

thanks for bringing the price comparison in this debate .

It simply shocking to see the price differences between competing crafts .

Feel vindicated that we are unnecessarily going for this deal.


least we can do is postpone the deal for few years ..till our economy picks up and we have enough funds .

this deal should not go through at the expense other much more vital projects that have been stalled due to lack of funds .

Just checked for some other prices for comparison:



Russian Military Orders 6 Be-200 Amphibious Planes | Defense | RIA Novosti




Bombardier Announces Order for Amphibious Aircraft - Bombardier

Based on these reports the unit cost would be:

US 2 - $110 million (x 15 for IN = $1.65 billion)
Be 200 - $44.6 million (x 15 for IN = $669 million)
Bombardier 415 - $36.8 millions (x 15 for IN = $552 million)

@Abingdonboy , @sandy_3126 , @he-man , @Sergi

Your comments, please !

 

[SAMEET]

[So whats problem in that ?]

$36.8 mi

simply do not understand why we are pursuing this deal ....
as far as politico-strategic reasons are concerned ...when it came to MMRCA we did not give in to even Obama's charm offensive .

same argument was forwarded that time that India missed opportunity to forge closer ties by awarding MMRCA deal to USA .
we stuck to our guns and selected the best among all sheerly on technical basis and then opted for the lowest bidder .

why are we eager to push for such a costly deal when the said money can be better utilized in other ways ?


to put in perspective people made huge hue and cry when original bill for Gorshkov swelled up from 800 million $ to 2.3 billion dollar .

and now India is willing to shell out 1.5 billion $ for these 15 planes ...

thanks for bringing the price comparison in this debate .

It simply shocking to see the price differences between competing crafts .

Feel vindicated that we are unnecessarily going for this deal.


least we can do is postpone the deal for few years ..till our economy picks up and we have enough funds .

this deal should not go through at the expense other much more vital projects that have been stalled due to lack of funds .



@Abingdonboy , @sandy_3126 , @he-man , @Sergi

Your comments, please !

No wonder russian can never be trusted see the deal vikramaditiya and many other navy ships we must defence market open so that we can opt for better option and dealing with japan will be clear message to china that your deal with India in Goods dumping will be over !