China Must Reform or Die.

[Solomon2]

We've wandered pretty far from the topic of reform. Enough to suggest that if China's leaders push the "nationalist" and "Western imperialist" buttons the response of ordinary Chinese will be supportive and discussion of reform forgotten. This can only encourage Chinese imperialism, is that not so?

 

[huzihaidao12]

Well I guess Vietnam is in big trouble, by that line of reasoning. At one time Vietnam was part of China. So China has legitimate claim to Vietnam as well as these Islands.

China and Vietnam could reach a joint development agreement, we can make some interest to the Vietnamese. We have the possibility of a peaceful settlement.

 

[huzihaidao12]

We've wandered pretty far from the topic of reform. Enough to suggest that if China's leaders push the "nationalist" and "Western imperialist" buttons the response of ordinary Chinese will be supportive and discussion of reform forgotten. This can only encourage Chinese imperialism, is that not so?

I do not like to predict the future, no meaning. However, democracy is not much needed in China, or that we have our own steps.We will choose a better life for ourselves.

 

[huzihaidao12]

Not only China and Vietnam. Even within Southeast Asian countries have territorial disputes in the South China Sea

 

[huzihaidao12]

Some people talk about the Sudan? China's expansion? What is this strange expression? Even trade, China is not unique. Expansion? What a strange statement!

 

[chauism]

We've wandered pretty far from the topic of reform. Enough to suggest that if China's leaders push the "nationalist" and "Western imperialist" buttons the response of ordinary Chinese will be supportive and discussion of reform forgotten. This can only encourage Chinese imperialism, is that not so?

Not really. The seeds of nationalism in China is not planted by the government but rather by the west's own actions whether they are in the past or present. Nationalism is a button the Chinese government doesn't want to push at all, because nationalism is a double edged sword that could have harm the government as well. In a democracy, the opportunists won't hesitate even for a second to push this button if it can get them the popular support to achieve their own political goals. If the sentiment is strong enough, then the opposing party too has to do something in similar fashion to avoid being overpowered. So in the end, democracy will encourage imperialism in China.

A Double-Edged Sword

Beijing’s top priority today is to maintain peace at home while pursuing its development goals and a greater role in global affairs. Experts say while nationalism may be an effective tool for the Chinese regime to maintain control at home, it can harm its claim of “peaceful rise” globally. Pei says nationalism is certainly an obstacle in China’s image as a responsible stakeholder. “A very nationalistic public makes foreigners very wary of China and harms China’s image,” he says.

Domestically, too, excessive nationalism poses problems for the authoritarian government. The government takes great care to suppress ethnic nationalism among its minorities such as Tibetans and Uighurs who are denied the right to establish separate states. Nationalism in Taiwan, too, is seen as a threat by Beijing, which hopes to unite with the island someday. The Chinese leaders also fear nationalism could turn against them in the form of criticism if they failed to deliver on their nationalistic promises. New York Times columnist Nicholas D. Kristof writes: “All this makes nationalism a particularly interesting force in China, given its potential not just for conferring legitimacy on the government but also for taking it away.”

Nationalism in China - Council on Foreign Relations

FOR Americans, the ''bad guys'' in China seem easily identifiable: they are the aging, grim-faced Communist hard-liners in Mao jackets, wagging their trembling fingers at the world. They squelch democratic opinion, detain American airplane crews and ferociously repress Tibet.

But that conclusion is thoroughly misleading. Increasingly, the real hard-liners toward the West are simply ordinary people.

''A more democratic China is not necessarily a less nationalistic China,'' said Xiao Qiang, the executive director of Human Rights in China, a New York-based group. ''It could take a very hard line, too.''

''Nationalism is very dangerous for the Communist Party,'' said Mr. Wu, the former senior official. ''Because after you've created it, it grows stronger and stronger on its own until it is difficult to control.''

The World: Fruits of Democracy; Guess Who's a Chinese Nationalist Now?

 

[Chinaownseverything]

Well I guess Vietnam is in big trouble, by that line of reasoning. At one time Vietnam was part of China. So China has legitimate claim to Vietnam as well as these Islands.

Yes but Vietnam clearly DOES NOT WANT incorporation into China and they HAVE declared independence.

There are no people living in the South China sea, they are uninhabited reefs.

In addition there is evidence that a significant amount of the populations in the areas disputed with India that the people there either want, independence, apathetic about whether they get taxed by China or India, or they want to be annexed by China (Maoist) different maoist groups want different things

 

[chauism]

In fact, the Inner Mongolian think they are the representatives of Mongolia, Genghis Khan's tomb in China, the Gold family are in China, the population than Outer Mongolia. Even the language of Mongolia is also a new language based on Russian.

What is your point? They are still Mongols, even if the Outer Mongolia is part of China today, it still does not change the fact that China's expansion was done by Mongols and Manchurian. Even China proper was under their rules during Yuan and Qing dynasty. People in China always say how many atrocities Japanese had done to Chinese during WW II, but let me tell you something. The number of atrocities in China along with their casualties done by the Mongols and Manchurians will make Japanese look like humanitarians.

 

[huzihaidao12]

What is your point? They are still Mongols, even if the Outer Mongolia is part of China today, it still does not change the fact that China's expansion was done by Mongols and Manchurian. Even China proper was under their rules during Yuan and Qing dynasty. People in China always say how many atrocities Japanese had done to Chinese during WW II, but let me tell you something. The number of atrocities in China along with their casualties done by the Mongols and Manchurians will make Japanese looked like humanitarians.

I know, but the real history, I say is true, it is realistic national interests.

 

[TorontoNoctis]

We've wandered pretty far from the topic of reform. Enough to suggest that if China's leaders push the "nationalist" and "Western imperialist" buttons the response of ordinary Chinese will be supportive and discussion of reform forgotten. This can only encourage Chinese imperialism, is that not so?

Well the thesis is that reform will create imperialism.

It didn't happen with Russia, but Russia spent the better part of ten years infighting between the old guard, mafia, oligarchs, military and KGB. With China any reform would happen top down since they would never allow the media to rouse popular support or a Yeltsin-type to stand on top of a tank. Chinese reform will not be bottom up like Russia but top down and if the so-called reformer is actually a nationalist with imperialistic ambitions then forget peace. The West better be careful what it wishes for. Any sort of reform is centered around a handful of central characters, and if these characters are corrupt or immoral then the "reform" will end up a sham. It almost did in Russia.

 

[Solomon2]

I feel a peaceful top-down reform can be made to work. My idea is to tie it in to reforms in China's justice system. Rather than start by electing legislators, what if Chinese elected judges and prosecutors instead? The Party would control the laws, but the elected officials would go after corrupt cadres at the people's behest. The law would protect honest officials from unjust charges.

What do you think?

 

[Tshering22]

As the newly promoted Political Commissar (PC) of the PLA's National Defense University, (a rank just one level shy from the CMC). Lt General Liu is once again delivering his provocative view on the same theme since his Chengdu Air Force days -- embracing US-style democracy or accept a Soviet-style collapse.

Lt General Liu's free airing of provocative views on both foreign and domestic issues, especially his calls for political reform and the freedom of expression, is unprecedented. Thus far, his views not only strengthen his career but also allowed him to became one of the most covered personalities by the PLA-watching community in the West. He was a visiting scholar at Stanford University from 1986 to 1987, a fact might help to explain his "Pro-Western" view.

In addition of being the PC for the National Defense University, Lt General Liu is also serving as a member of the CCP's Central Commission for Disciplinary Inspection, China's top anti-graft watchdog.




What do you guys make of this?

But why would China die? This is silly. CCP learnt from Soviet's mistakes and therefore has impprovised a good combination of freedom+authoritarianism. Now you're on the verge of becoming a superpower; how can this guy talk of a collapse?

 

[Chinaownseverything]

I don't understand why the western world needs to discriminate.

So another country has a different economic system and government.

Big deal, so why the pressure for China to change?

I do not see China forcing their government model on other countries.

So why does the western world justify trying to force their government on China?

 

[CAPTAIN AMERICA]

Well the thesis is that reform will create imperialism.

It didn't happen with Russia, but Russia spent the better part of ten years infighting between the old guard, mafia, oligarchs, military and KGB. With China any reform would happen top down since they would never allow the media to rouse popular support or a Yeltsin-type to stand on top of a tank. Chinese reform will not be bottom up like Russia but top down and if the so-called reformer is actually a nationalist with imperialistic ambitions then forget peace. The West better be careful what it wishes for. Any sort of reform is centered around a handful of central characters, and if these characters are corrupt or immoral then the "reform" will end up a sham. It almost did in Russia.

You could have been talking about USSR not long ago, when that genie called freedom gets out of the bottle its real hard to put it back in.

 

[CAPTAIN AMERICA]

I don't understand why the western world needs to discriminate.

So another country has a different economic system and government.

Big deal, so why the pressure for China to change?

I do not see China forcing their government model on other countries.

So why does the western world justify trying to force their government on China?

It was not the west that got rid of the USSR's goverment, it was the people of the USSR and the same is true with China, its not the west that going to force democracy on the Chinese people its the Chinese people.