Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

[Adıvar]

Does anyone have technical specifications in pc form to the Altay tender? (şartname)

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

Feel free to fact check my post.
Marshall plan got activated before Menderes got elected and officially started in january of 1947 in Turkey.

Erol Mütercimler, who is pro-CHP, had a good speech on tv about how NATO (gladio) used Kemalizm to destabilize Turkey and go after it's own interests, and lamented about how that wasn't true Kemalizm.
In this case he only talked about Kemalizm (if I recall correctly), I don't remember him explicitly saying that they (gladio, CIA, etc.) use any and all ideologies they can and corrupt them in order to further their own interest, but it did come down to it. I can't give you a source here, because I coincidently watched it on tv.

Their (CIA, etc.) tactic is to support opposing ideologies and corrupt them to go after their own interests, and try to polarize and destabilize a country or a region. Like what we had seen in Iraq, Sunni Shia etc. In the case of Turkey, PKK, DHKP-C etc are all products of these tactics.

You see, ideologies like Islamism, nationalism, communism etc. are all ideologies that are used to destabilize nations all over the world. ISIS for instance claim they are Muslims and follow Islam, but everything they do goes against all the principles of Islam, they even try to specifically recruit those that don't even have a basic understanding of Islam (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...tanding-of-islam-radicalisation-a7877706.html). This is so it is easy to manipulate them. PKK, FARC and all other terrorist groups use the exact same tactic, different sides of the same coin (speculation --> suggesting they have the same master maybe???).

I had a very slight suspicion on my verdict for you, but now sure. You are in ''guess'' phase, if in ''know'' phase, you would not shift the topic when confronted factual argument hidden in detail under the surface, and the more you dig in, the less you get close to the ''emotion'' and more close to the ''ingelligence''. As long as you stay in the ''guess'' phase, everytime you are confronted with factual argument into deeper detail, you will shift the topic and sail to a different topic to hide your true capability and knowledge in a long rhetoric on the different topic.

The Before/after Adnan Menderes tells a very different stories about Turkey with an exception of Ecevit government.

With the Adnan Menderes era, USA inflitration into Turkey got faster than ever via the Islam abusers and PKK, probably due to the stance of CHP and its founder on the side of the nation and country. That is why,since Menderes to today, did only Ecevit rule Turkey for the sake of the country and nation for a short time(as your short reference to 1974 shows), and the rest have always been who is closer to USA, to be more specific the Islam abusers and PKK terrorists.

What does Menderes-Nursi-Usa alliance tell you about today's Turkey? Almost identical, he?

Let's go back to the topic,

Will the BMC bring any permanent value for the sake of the country and nation in the long term after the money earned in he Altay tank deal?

 

[-------]

By 2022 Altays indigenous engine and transmission will be ready.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1078920942821232640

 

[Nein]

Any chance of Altay prototypes being built and used for operations like in Syria.

I know its risky but it could be worthwhile to test it perhaps. Maybe maximum 4?

 

[Glass]

no way

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

I simply will tell a few things ,since absoultely its useless to talk further.
* Everyone knows the tender was unfair and corrupted, BMC won with pure political reasons.

That's speculation. The only reason a certain side believes it was unfair and corrupt is because the one's propagating toward that, want people to believe it's like that. So far there hasn't been any proof, otherwise the first ones to complain would've been the ones that took part in those tenders.

* BMC even couldnt build up a factory and assembly line, thus now Tank Palet is being sold to them. Yet leave this away,BMC wasnt bothered about training the staff for a possible serial production they were pretty sure since the beginning that something will be delivered to them. The road is paved by one KHK earlier ( privatisation or utilization of state factories) and by the current one ( privatisation of Tank Palet) . It more smells like, the first one has been offered to BMC,but instead of utilising the factory they somehow preffered to acquire it, which even smells something worse is going to happen.

Speculation as well, only people at BMC know the inner workings of the company and whether there was training or not, or whether it was possible to train any staff. Regarding Tank Palet, at this point saying anything about it will also be speculation. Sure, it could go to BMC, but it could also go to some other company. Or maybe even cancel the privatization, it's too early to tell at this point.

* Deal has been delayed so that BMC could get prepared and fulfilled the agreement , finally, despite of the fact that BMC hasnt done any preparation ,with the pressure of the President the deal is inked by SSB.

Speculation, and the source of this speculation stems from political interests.

* Whomever has built the prototype should have had the serial production , we are aware that Altay wont be produced in a dozen thousands scale. And its useless to deliver knowledge to others, it it was the real desire.then consortium should have formed ( FNSS / Otokar) .

If that is your opinion, then that is fair enough. But according to the roadmap for the Altay tank, it was known from the start that there would be a seperate tender for the serial production of the tank.

* If privatisation is needed this much ,everyone knows who should be first in defence industry ( MKE)

There were talks about privatization of MKE. There is a video posted in the Turkish firearms thread by DefenceTurk youtube channel. In this youtube channel they have another video where they interview the director of MKE, and he at one point couldn't help himself and criticized other (private) companies because they worked for money, while MKE worked for the country. This could suggest that the director of MKE feels the pressure of a potential privatization of the company.

* Tank Palet isnt a profit targeted company, its the factory of military for maintenance and overhauling , it simply exists for a reason to serve but not for profit. Privatisation in this case should be questioned.

Targeting profit can work as a great motivator. In order to drive up profits, your products need to be better then the products of competitors. This can force a company to focus more on quality control and R&D in order to stay competitive. In state-owned companies this motivation isn't as prevalent or in some cases is missing.

* Finally i can say again, BMC whatsoever isnt adequate for this project and they have proven it for asking out Tank Palet's privatisation.

This is a governmental policy and we saw that this could happen a couple of years ago. At that time they were still contemplating on either privatizing or restructuring, and MKE's name specifically came up. Aselsan was quoted as a good example of how MKE should be. Aselsan is owned by a governmental fund (TSK guclendirme vakfi) and is open to the public. So Aselsan is private, but indirectly state owned.

* What i referred to - a company without factory - was already understood by whom knows the matter. You rather tried to pull it aside for replying purposes. FNSS and Otokar has better facilities and production lines, they also do have staff who can handle the work, BMC hasnt got it. And it is already clear, BMC couldnt even enlarge, improvize current capabilities but chosen a way of acquiring Tank Palet for this purpose. This already indicates BMC didnt have proper facilities ( even not promising ones) suitable with tender.

If you feel like I misunderstood something, then feel free to correct me or elaborate further. FNSS and Otokar would've had the same challenges. Now all companies will handle these challenges differently. Maybe they could've handled it better than BMC, maybe not. FNSS and Otokar might have better personnel, but they are occupied with whatever duties they have within the company. So even FNSS and Otokar would've have to restructure or even hire new personnel for Altay production.

* It was quite a mess in tender, BMC has got the tender because they were chosen for super something, and they were chosen for super something because they have got the tender ( egg and chicken frame but both existed at the same time) .

Do you have a proper source for this?

* Investors does matter in defence industry, like happened earlier BMC could have stopped the production for financial purposes in case of anything might happen ( investors could withdraw, or sanctions may occur) . I wouldnt like to see a foreign investor ( doesnt matter whom, it has already been proven that we shouldnt trust anybody on critical projects) in this kind of critical projects.

What happened earlier to BMC was due to BMC's financial stability and solvency issues and (mis-) management. The problem lied with the company itself, not with the investors. In case an investors withdraws, then it would only hurt him, because the company itself would still continue on existing. And in extreme cases the state can nationalise the company. Which is what happened to BMC when it went bankrupt, BMC is a company of strategic value, the state wouldn't allow BMC to cease existing. FNSS, Otokar, Aselsan, Durmazlar and many others are also strategic companies. The state wouldn't jeopardize the existence and future of these companies.

 

[Timur]

By 2022 Altays indigenous engine and transmission will be ready.

I have a bad feeling about the engine part and I think thats the whole delaying point.. german engines may be canceled or have to much restrictions for us

 

[ANMDT]

That's speculation. The only reason a certain side believes it was unfair and corrupt is because the one's propagating toward that, want people to believe it's like that. So far there hasn't been any proof, otherwise the first ones to complain would've been the ones that took part in those tenders.

Speculation as well, only people at BMC know the inner workings of the company and whether there was training or not, or whether it was possible to train any staff. Regarding Tank Palet, at this point saying anything about it will also be speculation. Sure, it could go to BMC, but it could also go to some other company. Or maybe even cancel the privatization, it's too early to tell at this point.

Speculation, and the source of this speculation stems from political interests.
If that is your opinion, then that is fair enough. But according to the roadmap for the Altay tank, it was known from the start that there would be a seperate tender for the serial production of the tank.
There were talks about privatization of MKE. There is a video posted in the Turkish firearms thread by DefenceTurk youtube channel. In this youtube channel they have another video where they interview the director of MKE, and he at one point couldn't help himself and criticized other (private) companies because they worked for money, while MKE worked for the country. This could suggest that the director of MKE feels the pressure of a potential privatization of the company.

Targeting profit can work as a great motivator. In order to drive up profits, your products need to be better then the products of competitors. This can force a company to focus more on quality control and R&D in order to stay competitive. In state-owned companies this motivation isn't as prevalent or in some cases is missing.

This is a governmental policy and we saw that this could happen a couple of years ago. At that time they were still contemplating on either privatizing or restructuring, and MKE's name specifically came up. Aselsan was quoted as a good example of how MKE should be. Aselsan is owned by a governmental fund (TSK guclendirme vakfi) and is open to the public. So Aselsan is private, but indirectly state owned.

If you feel like I misunderstood something, then feel free to correct me or elaborate further. FNSS and Otokar would've had the same challenges. Now all companies will handle these challenges differently. Maybe they could've handled it better than BMC, maybe not. FNSS and Otokar might have better personnel, but they are occupied with whatever duties they have within the company. So even FNSS and Otokar would've have to restructure or even hire new personnel for Altay production.

Do you have a proper source for this?

What happened earlier to BMC was due to BMC's financial stability and solvency issues and (mis-) management. The problem lied with the company itself, not with the investors. In case an investors withdraws, then it would only hurt him, because the company itself would still continue on existing. And in extreme cases the state can nationalise the company. Which is what happened to BMC when it went bankrupt, BMC is a company of strategic value, the state wouldn't allow BMC to cease existing. FNSS, Otokar, Aselsan, Durmazlar and many others are also strategic companies. The state wouldn't jeopardize the existence and future of these companies.

You are claiming all those to be speculations, that means its the end of the discussion.
When BMC has won the tender, the comittee pointed out the factory ,which is going to be built under coverage of super promotions and project based promotions BMC has acquired, which actually by pointing out Altay project ( even engine and transmission is named as the project, BMC has pointed that they are a candidate of tender while applying for super promotion)
I dont watch youtube channels or follow people one social media for defence industry related stuff. i am old fashioned, i am in the industry, i hear stuff , i see stuff and i talk. Thats the the i am here.
I saw engineers from BMC, i saw ,met ,from Otokar, fnss and other companies as well and do not worry their speech, attitude and knowledge tells everything.

Edit 1.
If Otokar or Fnss has been selected,by now we would deploy Altay in Syria and project wouldnt be delayed a few years for sake of waiting BMC.
(Syria, and current situation in Mediterranean is a blessing for defence industry to test and prove the equipment, miss out this chance, Altay wouldnt go anywhere but stay in Turkey. Once you have experienced staff , it is not a burden to hire and train newbies ( BMC has got nothing comparable to others in terms of experience, dont count Kirpi as experience next to Fnss and Otokar)
You jumped in privatisation of MKE, well that was the trap, MKE in my honest opinion should be joined in TSKGV along side with others, its a precious and only institution with specific capabilities and shouldnt be in private, greedy hands.
Again, we , in critical cases, have seen that privatisation isnt a good choise. ( turk telekom, seker fabrikalari, tekel should name more)
Literally, my last words on this topic for todays, i am done with discussing.
Nice to talk with you.

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

I had a very slight suspicion on my verdict for you, but now sure. You are in ''guess'' phase, if in ''know'' phase, you would not shift the topic when confronted factual argument hidden in detail under the surface, and the more you dig in, the less you get close to the ''emotion'' and more close to the ''ingelligence''. As long as you stay in the ''guess'' phase, everytime you are confronted with factual argument into deeper detail, you will shift the topic and sail to a different topic to hide your true capability and knowledge in a long rhetoric on the different topic.

No offence but none of your claims so far have been factual. You claimed that I wasn't telling the truth and I invited you to fact check my posts, but you neglected to do so. You claim that I change the topic, but you haven't even responded to my arguments with nothing but "you distort history", but ironically it is you that distorts history according to how it suits your political opinions and that is evident in especially the second paragraph of your last post:

You are going into extremes by saying 'Islam abusers' and the way you cite PKK, saying that a certain ideological party is good while the rest are bad and have been closer to USA. In other words, you are taking things to the extreme just to prove your points. All this does nothing but show that you have a strong (fanatical even) bias towards a certain side of the political spectrum and therefore you think that anyone other than that ideology is negative/bad, or whatever. For instance you say that 'Ecevit was the only leader that ruled Turkey for the sake of the nation and country'. Sure, Ecevit was a good leader, but claiming that he was the only leader to look out for our interests in modern history just goes to show how much propaganda and smear campaigns can have an affect. Because at the end of the day, it is really unfair to all the other leaders in our history by implying that they weren't working for the best interest of our country. Menderes even gave his life for this country, and you are just discrediting him because it isn't in line with your current ideology.

When you were confronted with actual historical facts, the way you reacted suggested that you weren't able to deal with it and therefore you claimed that I was intentionally distorting history without even fact checking what I wrote. But all this is because you are trying to convince yourself that your 'truth' is the real 'truth', so the person/article/source etc. claiming otherwise must be wrong, dumb, evil or whatever and that reflects on your writing feeding into your cognitive biases.

You keep talking about "guess", "intelligence", "emotion" phases. What is that about, some sort of psychological theory or something? And how are you so sure that you aren't in the "guess" phase? Have you ever done self-reflection on that? And in order to dig up the truth and facts, isn't it actually better to perpetually be in the "guess" phase? Always challenging what you "know"? Isn't that how people grow intellectually?

The Before/after Adnan Menderes tells a very different stories about Turkey with an exception of Ecevit government.

With the Adnan Menderes era, USA inflitration into Turkey got faster than ever via the Islam abusers and PKK, probably due to the stance of CHP and its founder on the side of the nation and country. That is why,since Menderes to today, did only Ecevit rule Turkey for the sake of the country and nation for a short time(as your short reference to 1974 shows), and the rest have always been who is closer to USA, to be more specific the Islam abusers and PKK terrorists.

What does Menderes-Nursi-Usa alliance tell you about today's Turkey? Almost identical, he?

US infiltration started after WW2, with the Marshall plan, threat of communism. The coup of 1960 was the pivot point of US, Nato, Gladio infiltration, and had adverse effects on our democracy.

Let's go back to the topic,

Will the BMC bring any permanent value for the sake of the country and nation in the long term after the money earned in he Altay tank deal?

Yes, and they already were/are since BMC's inception back in the 60's.

 

[Bismarck]

How do you fight corruption in Turkey?

 

[matmat26]

We dont
And you?

 

[Bismarck]

We dont
And you?

You could be right.

https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2017

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

No offence but none of your claims so far have been factual. You claimed that I wasn't telling the truth and I invited you to fact check my posts, but you neglected to do so. You claim that I change the topic, but you haven't even responded to my arguments with nothing but "you distort history", but ironically it is you that distorts history according to how it suits your political opinions and that is evident in especially the second paragraph of your last post:

You are going into extremes by saying 'Islam abusers' and the way you cite PKK, saying that a certain ideological party is good while the rest are bad and have been closer to USA. In other words, you are taking things to the extreme just to prove your points. All this does nothing but show that you have a strong (fanatical even) bias towards a certain side of the political spectrum and therefore you think that anyone other than that ideology is negative/bad, or whatever. For instance you say that 'Ecevit was the only leader that ruled Turkey for the sake of the nation and country'. Sure, Ecevit was a good leader, but claiming that he was the only leader to look out for our interests in modern history just goes to show how much propaganda and smear campaigns can have an affect. Because at the end of the day, it is really unfair to all the other leaders in our history by implying that they weren't working for the best interest of our country. Menderes even gave his life for this country, and you are just discrediting him because it isn't in line with your current ideology.

When you were confronted with actual historical facts, the way you reacted suggested that you weren't able to deal with it and therefore you claimed that I was intentionally distorting history without even fact checking what I wrote. But all this is because you are trying to convince yourself that your 'truth' is the real 'truth', so the person/article/source etc. claiming otherwise must be wrong, dumb, evil or whatever and that reflects on your writing feeding into your cognitive biases.

You keep talking about "guess", "intelligence", "emotion" phases. What is that about, some sort of psychological theory or something? And how are you so sure that you aren't in the "guess" phase? Have you ever done self-reflection on that? And in order to dig up the truth and facts, isn't it actually better to perpetually be in the "guess" phase? Always challenging what you "know"? Isn't that how people grow intellectually?


US infiltration started after WW2, with the Marshall plan, threat of communism. The coup of 1960 was the pivot point of US, Nato, Gladio infiltration, and had adverse effects on our democracy.

The moment i see your rhetoric, i got your mentality thanks to the cumulativeness in the books of the human history and my short experience; That is why i reject to ''inform first, debate later'' kinda stance, and still do; Otherwise, My time and effort would end just like the @ANMDT did with you.(Either shift the topic or if confronted/cornered more, then just shut yourself with a key word ''speculation'' in the end)

Yes, and they already were/are since BMC's inception back in the 60's.

The same BMC still needs multi national-cooperation, privitization, financial bonuses, fixed tenders, delays, workers, engineers etc. *(and also the words of the owner) only for a single product to produce does obviously miss the good old days, but raises credible doubts about the reason(s) behind this for the sake of the country and nation that is literally in a war right now.


Apparently, you do not have those credible doubts, therefore ask you why, but you keep answering by emotion not intelligence just raises the doubts more in this chit chat; and of course dents your credibility as well.

Let's check it out again...

Will the BMC bring any permanent value for the sake of the country and nation in the long term after the money earned in the Altay tank deal?


Ps: * Ethem Sancak: "Aslen Arabım. Ben Türk olmaktan mutluluk duymam, üzülürüm."

 

[Malpsoy]

Did Ali Koç talk to the president and the defense minister only about Fenerbahçe this week ? Maybe T3 , maybe Tulpar, maybe RMK ???

 

[Adıvar]

You could be right.

https://www.transparency.org/news/feature/corruption_perceptions_index_2017

Even Ghana, Morocco, China, Burkina Faso, Oman are more honest.. Big SHAME
Never been this much corruption in Turkey.
"halal corruption"