Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

[BordoEnes]

According to Yusuf Akbaba because of the changing needs of the Turkish Armed Forces changes have been made to the M60A3M upgrade package and the other tanks will also undergo the changes. According to him soon we will see the beginning of the Leopard 2A4 modernization.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1080770121247924224

https://twitter.com/x/status/1080780384374272000

Its amazing to see that TSK finally sees the need to modernize our tank fleet, its been a long time coming. We have well over a thousand tanks in our inventory, so even with the Altay starting production it would take many years for our tank fleet to be replaced. In the meantime we need a proper modern fleet of capable tanks, as the situation in Syria has very clearly shown. I can understand the M60's upgrade considering they are old platforms but why the Leopard2NG modernization wasnt acquired sooner is a mystery to me.

 

[Faith_of_the_Fallen]

According to the contract, the first tank should be delivered to TSK after 18 months. When will this factory be ready for production?

It looks pretty hard given their level of technical readiness and investments; as a last resort, the state had to give them a relatively mature industrial complex. However if you point out those facts in this forum, several fanboy members might slander you for being a PKK rodent.

"We are free to evade the effort of thinking--to reject reason--but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see... "

 

[MKALE1]

BMC is owned by Arabs??

When is the last time Turks will own something?? Whats with selling everything and not owning anything.

Dont be surprised if Corruption means selling your industries to Greeks, Armenians and Jews.

History repeats itself yet again. Something needs to be done about this corruption.

There is no logic that you said about. Sabancı family moved their asset to malta, says some sources. And most state-owned company employ very-lazy-employee in their organisation. Privatization is the right way to successfull industry. They will not be fired, but their only concern about work-load increase. they are afraid of working much than the past. that is why they protest to privatisation. God damn it them.

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

"increase efficiency" ??

This factory, altough it belongs to the Turkish Army, has been able to manufacture high tech military gears, weapons and proved itself with Fırtına howitzer.

On the other side,
49% of BMC belongs to Qatar Armed Forces
51% to Ethem sancak, another arap from Siirt.
Does not have any infrastructure to manufacture a tank such as Altay. So wants to buy tank-palet factory in order to be able to make Altay.

Do you think Qatar Army is better at factory management and more loyal to Turkey than TSK?

1. If BMC had no capability to make Altay, why it was given the tender?
2. If Altay could be manufactured in tank-palet factory, why not allow it to make so?

You said.... Milli ve yerli...?

Like I said in my previous post, Tank palet's competency isn't in question here. So them manufacturing high tech military gear isn't in question either. But despite that, you still insist on bringing that up. Increasing efficiency means exactly that, increasing efficiency. It's also stated that they want to expand tank palet (meaning more jobs and manufacturing) and that this expansion will be financed by the private sector:

Source: http://www.resmigazete.gov.tr/eskiler/2018/12/20181220-2.pdf

"1. If BMC had no capability to make Altay, why it was given the tender?"
Because SSB knows BMC is capable of building the Altay. The speculation surrounding BMC of not being capable is just that, speculation and is motivated by politics and is part of a smear campaign. SSB has a credibility that outweighs any speculation surrounding it, because SSB has proven itself for decades now.
"2. If Altay could be manufactured in tank-palet factory, why not allow it to make so?"
Because the goal is to increase efficiency of tank palet, as well as expanding it.

What do you think of the expansion goals for tank palet?
You are so against this move, so you must be against tank palet expanding right? You must hate tank palet so much that you don't even want tank palet to be more efficient, right? (see what I did there? I just wrote assumptions about you and speculated, just to make you look bad (similar to what is going on with the speculation surrounding this ordeal. I don't mean anything I wrote in the text that is underlined by the way, so don't be offended because I don't think or believe that you are anything like that)

51% of BMC is Turkish, and 49% is Arab according to you right? What if I told you (I know I have told you this before), even if BMC was 100% foreign owned, that it would still be a Turkish company? It's headquarters is in Turkey, pays taxes in Turkey, the bulk of their business is in Turkey. Which would make it Turkish. (senin burada yaptigin sermaye dusmanligi olmuyormu simdi?). TEI is also 49% owned by Americans, does that make TEI any less Turkish of a company?

 

[kartal1]

Its amazing to see that TSK finally sees the need to modernize our tank fleet, its been a long time coming. We have well over a thousand tanks in our inventory, so even with the Altay starting production it would take many years for our tank fleet to be replaced. In the meantime we need a proper modern fleet of capable tanks, as the situation in Syria has very clearly shown. I can understand the M60's upgrade considering they are old platforms but why the Leopard2NG modernization wasnt acquired sooner is a mystery to me.

M60s can be old but when modernized can be very good and the Sabra modernization proved it. As far as I know the problem with the NG modernization package for Leopard 2 was the armor. There are even rumors that the current one developed by Roketsan for the M60A3M was not on the level that was needed and we imported armor from Ukraine and because of that Roketsan is keep working on a better armor but I am not 100% sure. I think with all the advancement we made there is not any obstacle for upgrading whatever armor we like. Upgraded Leopard 2 to a A6/A7 standard can be a game changer and now with the APS we developed.... Damn

 

[Malpsoy]

It looks pretty hard given their level of technical readiness and investments; as a last resort, the state had to give them a relatively mature industrial complex.
"

Soon we'll find out it's just rented for a short time. Not "giving" to them

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

According to the contract, the first tank should be delivered to TSK after 18 months. When will this factory be ready for production?

There will most likely be a stop-gap solution until Karasu is ready. The rumor goes that the first few tanks will be at tank palet factory, but isn't confirmed as far as I know.

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

Soon we'll find out it's just rented for a short time. Not "giving" to them

What is written and to be planned to be produced is a sign of monopolization; The Turk Defence Industry can go back not forward in land vehicles along with decades of experience in the middle of war(s).

What is more tragic is it is done for the sake of a controversial company not the state, country and nation sounds familiar from the past.

 

[Neptune]

Putting aside the political obvious and what portion of the society gets the most profit out of the privatization efforts being done over the last decades, I think people also tend to forget that privatizing a facility as large and capable as the 1st ABMK can also bring negative outcomes in the field during combat operations. Even though the chain of command's complex bureaucracy can make things happen very late, it can also have it done in a very short period of time.

Having the right to operate will also enable the contractor to choose what company to buy the materials and subsystems required which the private sectors' profit-centric approach can cost lives just to save some energy bills for running or just because of a not perfectly assembled armored tracked transport. No matter what anyone thinks, certain factories and shipyards that produce certain types of strategically important defense platforms shall not be put under private hands, especially when half of the shareholder is from a foreign country. And if that foreign country has forged warm ties with Turkey not due to state-level interactions but purely because of the personal relationships of the respective leaders of the countries. That makes it double dangerous.

The contract for privatization is 25 years, can anyone guarantee that 20 years later Qatar will not turn back on Turkey and share the know-how it received via BMC to third parties that are to deemingly act against Turkish national interests? If an Iranian or Saudi proxy was to fight Turkish soldiers one day in who knows where in Middle East or alternatively if these third parties develop anti-tank missile systems and these missiles are likely to fall on anti-Turkish hands; they would exactly know where to hit and their seekers would also be better optimized for the IR and heat signatures that characteristically refer to Turkish armored vehicles including Altay.

People quickly try to politicize the issue but no politician has ever thought of possible tactical implications of such moves. God help our soldiers, what can I say.

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

Putting aside the political obvious and what portion of the society gets the most profit out of the privatization efforts being done over the last decades, I think people also tend to forget that privatizing a facility as large and capable as the 1st ABMK can also bring negative outcomes in the field during combat operations. Even though the chain of command's complex bureaucracy can make things happen very late, it can also have it done in a very short period of time.

Having the right to operate will also enable the contractor to choose what company to buy the materials and subsystems required which the private sectors' profit-centric approach can cost lives just to save some energy bills for running or just because of a not perfectly assembled armored tracked transport. No matter what anyone thinks, certain factories and shipyards that produce certain types of strategically important defense platforms shall not be put under private hands, especially when half of the shareholder is from a foreign country. And if that foreign country has forged warm ties with Turkey not due to state-level interactions but purely because of the personal relationships of the respective leaders of the countries. That makes it double dangerous.

The contract for privatization is 25 years, can anyone guarantee that 20 years later Qatar will not turn back on Turkey and share the know-how it received via BMC to third parties that are to deemingly act against Turkish national interests? If an Iranian or Saudi proxy was to fight Turkish soldiers one day in who knows where in Middle East or alternatively if these third parties develop anti-tank missile systems and these missiles are likely to fall on anti-Turkish hands; they would exactly know where to hit and their seekers would also be better optimized for the IR and heat signatures that characteristically refer to Turkish armored vehicles including Altay.

People quickly try to politicize the issue but no politician has ever thought of possible tactical implications of such moves. God help our soldiers, what can I say.

For the bolded... The clue lies in the map about who is highly to get the ''leak'' of the tank first. The moment when the tanks is to be produced by BMC is when the tank is ''out of service'' in the field against whose war docrtine is based on rocket/missile, asymmetry.

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The source: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017...ts-qatar-airways-flights-170606081841215.html

 

[Quasar]

concerning BMC & ALTAY corruption is an obvious fact! However, I am sure BMC will be successful at least this is what we are all hoping for! They are heavily investing in this thing and they have almost uncoditional political support. and concerning ''leaking the secrets of ALTAY'' dont know, to me it seems like a bit overreacting.
Electronics, electro optics, fire control system, communication and the the rest belongs to ASELSAN, armour belongs to ROKETSAN, the gun and ammunition belongs to MKE.

 

[-------]

concerning BMC & ALTAY corruption is an obvious fact! However, I am sure BMC will be successful at least this is what we are all hoping for! They are heavily investing in this thing and they have almost uncoditional political support. and concerning ''leaking the secrets of ALTAY'' dont know, to me it seems like a bit overreacting.
Electronics, electro optics, fire control system, communication and the the rest belongs to ASELSAN, armour belongs to ROKETSAN, the gun and ammunition belongs to MKE.

How dare you speak sense..

 

[ANMDT]

Altay will get tested in BMC facilities, and nothing would be recorded at those ? And not possibly transferred to 3rd parties illegally ? Who would guarantee this not to happen ? How could we trust a company almost entirely funded by Qataris, a country who knows what they will do 10 years from now on while actually we have got locally funded company to do it, even a state factory willing to make it ?
Armours will be in hands of BMC, not too hard to mark some of them " wasted " and sneak out for further tests . It might happen anywhere,morelikely to happen i a company funded by unreliable partners.
Do you have any clue about what @Neptune had said ? Wouldnt Altay got on the field if it was awarded to any other technically reliable company?
Relying on so much Qatar? I suggest you to see some documentaries made by al-jazeera, moreover seeing they are on our side either to benefit financially or strategically.
Those questions are not to be answered but to raise some awareness in you.

 

[Timur]

And not possibly transferred to 3rd parties illegally ? Who would guarantee this not to happen ?

man I am not talking about bmc and their miracle contract.. but aselsan and otocar are no safer if you wanna argue like this because even mke manager wanted to sell blueprints of our rifle -

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/tu...ger-remanded-for-selling-state-secrets--97512

qatar wasn't she just involved with money?!

lets see there is nothing we can do just hope that all ends well like our atak programm (I personally think the engine is the thing that makes everything so much delayed)

 

[Adıvar]

Like I said in my previous post, Tank palet's competency isn't in question here. So them manufacturing high tech military gear isn't in question either. But despite that, you still insist on bringing that up. Increasing efficiency means exactly that, increasing efficiency. It's also stated that they want to expand tank palet (meaning more jobs and manufacturing) and that this expansion will be financed by the private sector:

EN VERİMLİ İŞYERİ SEÇİLDİ

Milletvekili Şevkin, sözde verimsiz diye özelleştirilmeye çalışılan fabrikanın son 10 yılda 3 defa Milli Prodüktivite Merkezi'nin en verimli işyeri seçildiğini, dünyadaki ilk beş fabrika arasına girdiğini, özelleştirmenin çok büyük bir hata olacağını belirtti. Fabrikanın E-5 karayolu ile otobanın tam ortasında Adapazarı şehir girişinde, 1 milyon 804 bin metrekarelik her türlü yeni yatırıma müsait çok geniş bir arazi üzerinde kurulu olduğuna dikkat çeken Şevkin, “500 ila 700 milyon dolarlık bir yatırımla 6 ay içerisinde seri Altay tankı üretebileceği bizzat Savunma Sanayi Başkanlığı tarafından açıklandı. Yetkililer tarafından Altay tankının ana üretiminin bu fabrika tarafından MSB-ASFAT A.Ş. kanalıyla yapılacağı deklare edildi. O halde niçin özel sektöre verilmek isteniyor” diye sordu

Kaynak Yeniçağ: Müzeyyen Şevkin: "Askeri fabrikayı yandaşa mı satacaksınız?"