Altay & Turkish Main Battle Tank Programs

[Armchair]

Turkey needs a simple tank they can mass produce. You don't need a hi-tech tank for the kind of wars you are fighting and likely to keep fighting for the next 10 years. Just keep it simple. Why does everyone want to build the ultimate Tiger tank? Its insane. What use is a 10 million dollar tank? What? Senseless (to me at least).

 

[dBSPL]

Turkey needs a simple tank they can mass produce. You don't need a hi-tech tank for the kind of wars you are fighting and likely to keep fighting for the next 10 years. Just keep it simple. Why does everyone want to build the ultimate Tiger tank? Its insane. What use is a 10 million dollar tank? What? Senseless (to me at least).

As a 2+ generation tanks, Turkey already have a comprehensive M60T / A3 and Leopard2A4 modernization program, forum's valuable members are constantly updated with information about it. In near future, modernized Leopards and M60s will be over 500.

The Altay program is aimed at meeting the need for a new generation tank, especially at western borders. But however Turkey saw that the lack of some capabilities at cross-border operations.Altay is not only going to meet the armored brigades needs of the modern land army, it is also expected to make an important difference in asymmetric warfare's supports(like Al-Bab) and urban operations.

Apart from all these issues,Turkey intended to improve the ability of amphibous and regional power projection. I do not want to speculate on a figure, but according to Turkey's armored brigades structure will keep over 2000 tanks in inventory, in the years ahead...

when entering a period of quite problematic with its allies, Turkey need the highest standards in both their own needs, as well as to improve export opportunities of domestic defense industry. So Altay program has an important mission.

 

[Armchair]

Hi dBSPL,

Thanks for your reply. I personally feel that a simpler tank, generated in numbers would be more useful for Turkey. Greece isn't really an effective power to Challenge turkey. Nothing else in the Western front is such a threat. Altay seems to be more of a national pride project turned wrong.

Right now, a simple tank generated in numbers would have saved Turkey a huge headache. Consider that such a tank could be given to TFSA and other allies. Could be used in numbers. And quantity has a quality all its own. Right now using Altay in Syria / Iraq is like using a Ferrari for delivering pizza.

At a time when the pizza house doesn't have enough vehicles to deliver enough pizza.

 

[dBSPL]

Dear friend, What are the factors that increase the cost of a modern tank?
Advanced armor mesh, off-road capability, self defense systems and active situational awareness. For example, the total cost of integration of a modern hard-kill active protection suite is nearly 10% of the tank cost, if you want to import.

Syria is an atgm paradise, we saw that on field, terrorist organizations can get Javelin-style advanced systems. Probably the world's most experienced Atgm teams are now in Syria. We should consider the ability to survive.

 

[HannibalBarca]

Otokar or BMC in the End... Germans will still have a say on the Altay Export clients... at least for this incoming decade... Since there is no "Local" Engine ready...

As for if Otokar is better than BMC... Well... If you have complete right on the Design and manufacturing of every component and make it almost 100% local (except engine for now) then where is the problem?

As for Loyalty...Corruption...Political side... Every Manufacturers is "Involved" in such practice... Everyone got his time... Otokar in the past...wasn't an angel either when it comes to "Fair" contracts...

Just build it...

 

[-------]

It's hilarious watching how people are teaming up against a assemblers. As if Otokar or BMC have the ability to completely design an MBT without any technological assistance. They are assemblers, they do not produce any technology! Altay was always going to be around 70-80% indigenous.

 

[Armchair]

Dear friend, What are the factors that increase the cost of a modern tank?
Advanced armor mesh, off-road capability, self defense systems and active situational awareness. For example, the total cost of integration of a modern hard-kill active protection suite is nearly 10% of the tank cost, if you want to import.

Syria is an atgm paradise, we saw that on field, terrorist organizations can get Javelin-style advanced systems. Probably the world's most experienced Atgm teams are now in Syria. We should consider the ability to survive.

Dear Friend,

Thanks for your reply. Here are some of the major components of a tank:

1. Engine
2. armor / defensive mechanism (you mention active defense systems)
3. Suspension
4. Transmission
5. Gun / Fire control system / Stabilization
6. Thermal sites

1. Engine
The Altay has an overly complex imported engine which needs technical expertise to operate and cannot be handed to FSA given German origin. Export for Altay will be limited by Germany. What was the use of all this Milli business to begin with?

2. Armor / defensive systems
Passive defense against ATGMs is relatively cheap but none of these are being utilized by Turkish tanks. Only spaced armor. But what about all the other options?
Active systems are very expensive and have not yet yielded results in the battlefield. While they work theoretically, they haven't performed in actual military use. Why waste money on this?

3. Suspension.
None of the tank engagements required blitzkreig maneuvers. They usually just move with the troops and support the troops. Basically Turkey uses tanks as "infantry tanks" not "panzer tanks". Yet, you are designing panzer-class suspension and mobility systems. Why? Again, not useful in Syria at all.

5. Gun / Fire control / stabilization
One does not need such a big, complex and highly stabilized gun that can fire at extreme ranges while on the move. This is an overkill. You need a simple gun with simplified / cost effective stabilization. Again, you are not firing while conducting a maneuver warfare, at high speed. You're moving with your troops, or mostly, just sitting at a position taking shots.

Perhaps what you need is a simple tank, properly armored and with passive defenses. With a Ukranian or Russian engine or something basic and simple that does not come with strings attached. A simple tank gun. Doesn't even need to be 120mm. Heavy armor, focused on ATGM (spaced / cage / reactive / etc )

between, the Ukranians were last known to be willing to transfer tank engine manufacturing technology for the right price.

 

[Adıvar]

It's hilarious watching how people are teaming up against a assemblers. As if Otokar or BMC have the ability to completely design an MBT without any technological assistance. They are assemblers, they do not produce any technology! Altay was always going to be around 70-80% indigenous.

1. Otokar is the company who manufactered Altay tanks before and passed all field tests.
It is a company with 100% Turkish capital
2. BMC (British Motor Company) on the other side, is a Qatar&Turkish joint venture with no experience with Tanks so established another company with Germans in order just to get the project of billions of Dollars...

Nobody with Turkish blood in their veins would prefer foreigners to Turkish engineers&workers.. except those saying "wish the greeks won the battle instead of Mustafa Kemal"..

What is your source to "70-80% indigenus" ?

 

[CAN_TR]

Dear Friend,

Thanks for your reply. Here are some of the major components of a tank:

1. Engine
2. armor / defensive mechanism (you mention active defense systems)
3. Suspension
4. Transmission
5. Gun / Fire control system / Stabilization
6. Thermal sites

1. Engine
The Altay has an overly complex imported engine which needs technical expertise to operate and cannot be handed to FSA given German origin. Export for Altay will be limited by Germany. What was the use of all this Milli business to begin with?

2. Armor / defensive systems
Passive defense against ATGMs is relatively cheap but none of these are being utilized by Turkish tanks. Only spaced armor. But what about all the other options?
Active systems are very expensive and have not yet yielded results in the battlefield. While they work theoretically, they haven't performed in actual military use. Why waste money on this?

3. Suspension.
None of the tank engagements required blitzkreig maneuvers. They usually just move with the troops and support the troops. Basically Turkey uses tanks as "infantry tanks" not "panzer tanks". Yet, you are designing panzer-class suspension and mobility systems. Why? Again, not useful in Syria at all.

5. Gun / Fire control / stabilization
One does not need such a big, complex and highly stabilized gun that can fire at extreme ranges while on the move. This is an overkill. You need a simple gun with simplified / cost effective stabilization. Again, you are not firing while conducting a maneuver warfare, at high speed. You're moving with your troops, or mostly, just sitting at a position taking shots.

Perhaps what you need is a simple tank, properly armored and with passive defenses. With a Ukranian or Russian engine or something basic and simple that does not come with strings attached. A simple tank gun. Doesn't even need to be 120mm. Heavy armor, focused on ATGM (spaced / cage / reactive / etc )

between, the Ukranians were last known to be willing to transfer tank engine manufacturing technology for the right price.

Simple Tank? We have a lot of simple Tanks... M60T, M60A3 and Leopard2a4... what we really need is a beast that can face modern western Tanks.


The Ukrainian engine was not powerful enough.

 

[dBSPL]

If I m not wrong, BMC's all defense industry operations are moving to Sakarya. The production of Azra Engine will probably be here as well. Truck and Bus line will stay in Izmir.

The company founded in Ankara (a 3-floor office), will provide engineering support for Leopard2 modernization and possibly Altay's turret integration, i think. ( If the main contractor in the Altay production project is BMC )

 

[Adıvar]

If I m not wrong, BMC's all defense industry operations are moving to Sakarya. The production of Azra Engine will probably be here as well. Truck and Bus line will stay in Izmir.

The company, founded in Ankara, will provide engineering support for Leopard2 modernization and possibly Altay's turret integration, i think. ( If the main contractor in the Altay production project is BMC )

You seem very familiar with defence industry.
Question: what could be possible reason behind giving the project to an inexperienced company begging Germans for technical asistance when we have a Turkish one already made it succesfully?

I believe you will answer honestly.

 

[dBSPL]

@Adıvar

Presumably, tower integration is a rather frustrating process. Prototype and mass production are different subjects.

The company based in Ankara is mainly concerned with Leopard2 modernization, but we see the tendency of BMC to expand its product range of land-systems on the road map. At the last Idef fair, BMC officials were very clear on this issue.

If you are asking about the Altay project, most of these topics are about money. I am really bothered with these "domestic-national" words that are mostly started by ruling party .

Today, Otokar's "domestic-national" engine's design provided by AVL. The Otokar Cobra has the French origin. Also Otokar entered the defense sector with Land Rover assembly line.

What I care about is not the foreign support of the companies, but the accumulation they have achieved with this support.

Maybe you remember, Between 1997-2002, Otokar-KMW (germany) the winner of the TANK2000 project, but BMC-US partnership won in the political arena.Project was canceled in 2004. But these experiences made Otokar as main contractor in MITUP's development.

 

[Adıvar]

@Adıvar

Presumably, tower integration is a rather frustrating process. Prototype and mass production are different subjects.

The company based in Ankara is mainly concerned with Leopard2 modernization, but we see the tendency of BMC to expand its product range of land-systems on the road map. At the last Idef fair, BMC officials were very clear on this issue.

If you are asking about the Altay project, most of these topics are about money. I am really bothered with these "domestic-national" words that are obviously that the ruling party has launched.

Today, Otokar's "domestic-national" engine's design provided by AVL. The Otokar Cobra has the French origin. Also Otokar entered the defense sector with Land Rover assembly line.

What I care about is not the foreign support of the companies, but the accumulation they have achieved with this support.

Maybe you remember, Between 1997-2002, Otokar-KMW (germany) the winner of the TANK2000 project, but BMC-US partnership won in the political arena.Project was canceled in 2004. But these the experiences made Otokar as main contractor in MITUP's development.

"If you are asking about the Altay project, most of these topics are about money."

Thank you for sincere answer.

AVL was the engine supplier but retired after the Austrian embargo. We still have problem with the engine.

Neither OTOKAR nor BMC will develope an engine for Altay from scratch but only will prepare production/assembly line.

Otokar, despite AVL withdrew, is ready for such production with its machines, workers, engineers who already have know-how.
Why give our money to Germans to feed some partisans?

We seem surrounded by corruption everywhere...

Thanks again for reply.

 

[Otonom Piyade]

2. BMC (British Motor Company) on the other side, is a Qatar&Turkish joint venture with no experience with Tanks so established another company with Germans in order just to get the project of billions of Dollars...

I won't get involved into the politics of why Otokar is not looked favourably on tank production....

.. but your assumption of BMC being British Motor Corporation is incorrect. British Motor Corp. is now a defunct company that closed business many decades ago, while BMC is Turkish with partly Qatar ownership.

 

[UkroTurk]

Does FNSS just assemble the parts of the vehicles ?
Otokar also just assembles the Cobra, Arma vehicles? What a easy job.