UAE, India and the Rafale issue

[Khafee]

Why you are getting angry man?? Nobody says anything bad about your country.. If two governments discuss about defense deals, there are professionals in both sides who knows reality more than you and me.. They will conclude things..

Hmmmm another clueless idiot is making BS comments about our defence procurement, while being lost on the M2K variants, and you ask me this dumb question. Good going genius!

Now you are just in denial. "A person" is good enough because these "persons" are supposed to remain incognito when deals are being made. What matters is the publication is legit and the journalist is very well known, Manu Pubby.

The process demands exports. That's why Saab and LM are talking about it, that's why even Dassault is offering it. Your pride won't stand in the way of what is obviously beneficial to Dassault and France.

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/01/india-uae-to-explore-joint-production.html
“We are looking at armaments, we are looking at armoured personnel carriers. We are looking at joint-production of aircraft,” Ministry of External Affairs Secretary Amar Sinha told journalists during a press conference on Tuesday.

Here also, the source is legit. He is talking about having some Rafales for UAE produced in India. Whether this may come to pass or not is unimportant, the fact is this shows Dassault is open to produce Rafales for export from India.

I understand Khafee, he hates India, so he doesn't like to see India benefiting in anyway, especially at UAE's expense, even though UAE has signed a MoU with Reliance to maintain their weapons. I'm not saying India will make UAE Rafales, the Indian line will be too young for that, but I'm saying they will be supported in India.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...re-defence-equipment/articleshow/49136696.cms

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...l-ship-manufacturing/articleshow/48856842.cms

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...orate-with-uae-s-mubadala-117021500999_1.html

But in your case, it is quite astounding because you clearly don't see that this setup is beneficial to Dassault and France as well. A typical case of pearls before swines.

Yup, end of conversation. You will see it for yourself when everything is said and done.

I don't hate India, it just that they produce crap, and call it gold, and expect the world to buy it. Not everyone buys your media hype, even if its swaminathan from a blog on WSJ says so. You can keep quoting MOU's all day long, but show me a contract, and then we will talk.

As @Taygibay and other people at DA, and the French MOD know, that the Rafay's aren't the only non-US a/c we are looking at, so this news is nothing but wishful thinking on your part. Keep talking nonsense, and looking like a fool.

 

[randomradio]

No market is captive. You have to fight to sell all the time. You said 'None of that has translated to a sale' but you were WRONG.

All markets you sold to are captive markets. The same as India is for Russia. No matter what, these countries will buy from France. No different from how Japan or Israel will buy from US.

You have the best jet in the world, but no breakthrough in any new market. You haven't broken through even your own captive markets.

France is as much a strategic partner as India for most countries in the world. On every aspects : defense, politics or economy France is at least as much if not more attractive than India so you're WRONG again

Incorrect. You are bigger only for now. But by the time the Rafale line is setup in India, India will be twice France's GDP. By the time the export lines open up, India will be 3 times France's GDP. By the time the first Rafale is sold to the export market, India will be about 1/2 of the EU's GDP.

Your answers are irrelevant not the French taxpayer which is the ultimate owner of the Rafale. Nothing will happen with the Rafale if it goes against the interest of the French taxpayer because it will become a political debate in France. I can tell you that if someday it is understood that the billions of R&D over 3 decades are spent to help India to export that won't be easy to explain to the French people and most of them won't agree and the move will be blocked.

Dude, you don't get it. The taxpayer is irrelevant. We have a GTG with your govt. Basically your taxpayer has agreed also. Your govt represents the taxpayer.

Even your DGA is involved in India's Rafale deal.

Not officially confirmed by DA or the French government so they are only dreamers like you for now.

Dude... haha. It's part of the process.

I can assure you that won't happen without a 2nd revolution in France with the current political mood.

I don't know what that means.

Yes we can. We buy billions of $ of oil a year far more than the value of export market fighters. So wrong again.

You can't negotiate strategic deals for that reason. All your oil deals are already paid for, you can't go around breaking contracts just to buy more oil from someone else.

I don't think you have understood how this works. The only way it will work is if you want more oil and you have new contracts to sign. India's oil consumption is growing by 4-7% per year.

Similarly, India can sign large deals with other countries as well, in exchange for other investments in power, industry etc.

You are too ambitious. A local production line for India is something normal if you become a big user of Rafale. To export a handful if needed due to though schedule is also possible. But to produce all future export Rafale from India instead of France is something unacceptable and that move will be rejected by so many people here that Trappier won't be able to explain it.

Do you know Trappier has been named as the chairman of DRAL? The Indian line is Dassault's line. Anil Ambani is the co-chairman.

Louis, it's no use! Check the above!
It's like trying to baptize a cat, he doesn't get it.

Oh, and I saw it first, , Tay.

The lack of strategic gains is the reason why you have lost so many deals to the US.

 

[The Eagle]

Members, Agree to disagree and move on. Back-up your posting with sources etc rather than making claims without any substance.

 

[randomradio]

And the UAE will tell you go away, you are drunk!

Haha, UAE is filling up our strategic reserves for free.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-02-15/uae-offers-india-free-oil-ease-storage-woes

http://www.thenational.ae/business/energy/uae-signs-first-strategic-oil-deal-with-india

I don't hate India, it just that they produce crap, and call it gold, and expect the world to buy it. Not everyone buys your media hype, even if its swaminathan from a blog on WSJ says so. You can keep quoting MOU's all day long, but show me a contract, and then we will talk.

The contracts are coming, don't worry. India's contracts also start off as MoUs. The MoUs were signed only recently.

As @Taygibay and other people at DA, and the French MOD know, that the Rafay's aren't the only non-US a/c we are looking at, so this news is nothing but wishful thinking on your part. Keep talking nonsense, and looking like a fool.

Meh, if Dassault loses the UAE deal to another aircraft, it demonstrates that they are not even able to hold on to their most strategic partners. All it does is prove French power is waning in the defence market.

 

[Khafee]

Haha, UAE is filling up our strategic reserves for free.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-02-15/uae-offers-india-free-oil-ease-storage-woes

http://www.thenational.ae/business/energy/uae-signs-first-strategic-oil-deal-with-india



The contracts are coming, don't worry. India's contracts also start off as MoUs. The MoUs were signed only recently.



Meh, if Dassault loses the UAE deal to another aircraft, it demonstrates that they are not even able to hold on to their most strategic partners. All it does is prove French power is waning.

Wait and see

 

[Shaji Pappan]

Hmmmm another clueless idiot is making BS comments about our defence procurement, while being lost on the M2K variants, and you ask me this dumb question. Good going genius.

I commented about the rafales not about your M2Ks.. Dassault is investing $4.5billion in India ( because of offset clause in rafale deal).. Dassault Reliance Aerospace Ltd is already formed.. Reliance also investing heavily to the factory in Nagpur..
In aero India Dassault president will be Eric Trappier said that "We are making the plans of the factory, we will have to build it, train the staff. There will be several production lines, and therefore several types of parts. This requires some preparation..
India's 36 rafales are off the shelf and they are coming from France only.. Then why dassault is investing?? In the application for CCI approval it is exactly mentioned the term " global export of fighter jets".. That means you may see Indian made Rafales in UAE airforce in future..

 

[Khafee]

I commented about the rafales not about your M2Ks.. Dassault is investing $4.5billion in India ( because of offset clause in rafale deal).. Dassault Reliance Aerospace Ltd is already formed.. Reliance also investing heavily to the factory in Nagpur..
In aero India Dassault president will be Eric Trappier said that "We are making the plans of the factory, we will have to build it, train the staff. There will be several production lines, and therefore several types of parts. This requires some preparation..
India's 36 rafales are off the shelf and they are coming from France only.. Then why dassault is investing?? In the application for CCI approval it is exactly mentioned the term " global export of fighter jets".. That means you may see Indian made Rafales in UAE airforce in future..

You and your fellow countryman are telling me, where my Rafay's (if) are coming from! What are you both intoxicated on?

This thread alone is testament to the fact why nobody with half a brain, takes you guys seriously.

 

[Dash]

You and your fellow countryman are telling me, where my Rafay's (if) are coming from! What are you both intoxicated on?

This thread alone is testament to the fact why nobody with half a brain, takes you guys seriously.

Im sorry I mistook you as a Pakistani that's why I asked the Mirage 2009 question.

Thought you will not need my sorry yet it I had to say.

Dear Indian members.

Pls don't thump your chest. Trappier has said it's impossible to set up a production line unless there is a confirmation for 200 jets and by the time he gets 200 orders UAE would have her Rafales.

That's a fact.

 

[Khafee]

Im sorry I mistook you as a Pakistani that's why I asked the Mirage 2009 question.

Thought you will not need my sorry yet it I had to say.

Dear Indian members.

Pls don't thump your chest. Trappier has said it's impossible to set up a production line unless there is a confirmation for 200 jets and by the time he gets 200 orders UAE would have her Rafales.

That's a fact.

Sanity at last, Thank You!

Being wrong and admitting to it only raises your stature, it does not decrease it.

On the contrary, being wrong and chasing your own tail makes you look like .............

 

[Shaji Pappan]

Sorry I mistook you as a Pakistani that's why I asked the Mirage 2009 question.

Thought you will not need my sorry yet it I had to say.

Dear Indian members.

Pls don't thump your chest. Trappier has said it's impossible to set up a production line unless there is a confirmation for 200 jets and by the time he gets 200 orders UAE would have her Rafales.

That's a fact.

Why you blaming Indian members about chest thumping?? Our Ministry of External Affairs Secretary Amar Sinha started this..

He said last month "We are looking at armaments, we are looking at armored personnel carriers. We are looking at joint-production of aircraft,"
"For example, as in the case of Rafale, which we are buying and UAE is also using (the Rafale), there is some interest. This is something that we can do together in terms of portion of the Rafale that would be built in India. Those are the areas that we are identifying and will work together," Amar Sinha added.

 

[Louiq XIV]

"For example, as in the case of Rafale, which we are buying and UAE is also using (the Rafale), there is some interest. This is something that we can do together in terms of portion of the Rafale that would be built in India. Those are the areas that we are identifying and will work together," Amar Sinha added.

What the hell is going on in India ? Are they all high ?

"UAE is also using (the Rafale)" how can you give credit to someone saying something that wrong ?

UAE isn't using Rafale at the moment. The French Air Force has a few Rafale in a base because we have some defence agreement with the UAE (without the help of India). Those fighters are French.

UAE may or may not buy Rafale in the future but they are not in a hurry because they have M2K-9 which are still really lethal machines.

 

[Dash]

Why you blaming Indian members about chest thumping?? Our Ministry of External Affairs Secretary Amar Sinha started this..

He said last month "We are looking at armaments, we are looking at armored personnel carriers. We are looking at joint-production of aircraft,"
"For example, as in the case of Rafale, which we are buying and UAE is also using (the Rafale), there is some interest. This is something that we can do together in terms of portion of the Rafale that would be built in India. Those are the areas that we are identifying and will work together," Amar Sinha added.

Amar Sinha can say whatever he wants, but we know what has been happening so far. There is a reason our bureaucracy is the most dreaded one. So take it with a pinch of salt and give the salt bag to the reporters reporting such.

We live in a pragmatic world and advice you to live there too.

 

[Khafee]

What the hell is going on in India ? Are they all high ?

"UAE is also using (the Rafale)" how can you give credit to someone saying something that wrong ?

UAE isn't using Rafale at the moment. The French Air Force has a few Rafale in a base because we have some defence agreement with the UAE (without the help of India). Those fighters are French.

UAE may or may not buy Rafale in the future but they are not in a hurry because they have M2K-9 which are still really lethal machines.

Well said

 

[Louiq XIV]

All markets you sold to are captive markets. The same as India is for Russia. No matter what, these countries will buy from France. No different from how Japan or Israel will buy from US.

You have the best jet in the world, but no breakthrough in any new market. You haven't broken through even your own captive markets.

Incorrect. You are bigger only for now. But by the time the Rafale line is setup in India, India will be twice France's GDP. By the time the export lines open up, India will be 3 times France's GDP. By the time the first Rafale is sold to the export market, India will be about 1/2 of the EU's GDP.

Dude, you don't get it. The taxpayer is irrelevant. We have a GTG with your govt. Basically your taxpayer has agreed also. Your govt represents the taxpayer.

Even your DGA is involved in India's Rafale deal.

Dude... haha. It's part of the process.

I don't know what that means.

You can't negotiate strategic deals for that reason. All your oil deals are already paid for, you can't go around breaking contracts just to buy more oil from someone else.

I don't think you have understood how this works. The only way it will work is if you want more oil and you have new contracts to sign. India's oil consumption is growing by 4-7% per year.

Similarly, India can sign large deals with other countries as well, in exchange for other investments in power, industry etc.

Do you know Trappier has been named as the chairman of DRAL? The Indian line is Dassault's line. Anil Ambani is the co-chairman.

The lack of strategic gains is the reason why you have lost so many deals to the US.

Dear randomradio,

Well well well all I can say is that your sound like someone very sure of himself knowing everything.

You pick-up unchecked information and then you add lovely dreams you mix everything with unknown timelines and you have the receipt to create doubts in every man but you.

 

[randomradio]

Pls don't thump your chest. Trappier has said it's impossible to set up a production line unless there is a confirmation for 200 jets and by the time he gets 200 orders UAE would have her Rafales.

That's a fact.

https://defence.pk/threads/uae-india-and-the-rafale-issue.477957/page-5#post-9214051
I'm not saying India will make UAE Rafales, the Indian line will be too young for that, but I'm saying they will be supported in India.

Man, you haven't understood what this thread is about at all. Start off from the first page.

Anyway, the production line is happening. The 200 orders is meant for full scale ToT. Dassault says if they get 200 orders, they will be able to bring in all the heavy work possible into India. Otherwise, even if we order just 36 more, these 36 will come from an Indian line, just that more work will be done in France before they are assembled in India.

Don't read half here, half somewhere else and then bring your half knowledge into a discussion where some of the other members are openly showing their hate for India.

What Trappier said is they want a big bang order so they can do a deep ToT much quicker. Read the article and analyse his words properly please.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...n-india-dassault-ceo/articleshow/57160249.cms
However, a larger order of close to 200 Rafale jets would be ideal to transfer high end technology and manufacturing capabilities to India at a `competitive level' the senior executive has said.

Dassault however believes that the current order of 36 jets would not be sufficient to transfer high end manufacturing or technology to India. Trappier said that extra orders would need to be placed by 2017-18 to come up with a larger Make in India plan that would involve shifting heavy work.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...next-decade/story-sICe1UFTRC0RxR3wkpLCZK.html
“Thirty six is a good number to start with but we need to build on that foundation. It is not big enough for transfer of technology,” Trappier told a select group of journalists at Aero India-2017. “We are pushing for more orders. We are aware of the Indian military’s requirements and additional orders could come.”

The current plan is to make all Rafale spares in India, making India completely independent from import of spares. Apart from that, we will start with an assembly line also. If we are lucky, the last 20 jets of UAE's could be assembled in India. Apart from that, UAE Rafales, including a few other export countries, will get their spares and support from India. The ultimate plan is to shift the entire support structure of all international Rafales from France to India. So, only French Rafales will be supported by the French industry because of strategic reasons, while India will leverage its low cost structure and become the global hub for all international Rafales.

Also, what he means by 200 numbers is including the 36 GTG and 57 from IN. So he is basically asking for the IN deal + an order of about 110 jets to setup a production line with deep ToT, which is easily possible.

Trappier has been named the chairman of the Indian line. So I don't get what's the problem of the French members.

What the hell is going on in India ? Are they all high ?

"UAE is also using (the Rafale)" how can you give credit to someone saying something that wrong ?

UAE isn't using Rafale at the moment. The French Air Force has a few Rafale in a base because we have some defence agreement with the UAE (without the help of India). Those fighters are French.

Don't get caught up by the exact words he used. He probably means 'buying'. English is obviously not his second language.

UAE may or may not buy Rafale in the future but they are not in a hurry because they have M2K-9 which are still really lethal machines.

UAE is going for the Rafale. It is a planned purchase and India is also involved. That's where the strategic relationship is headed between the three countries.

Dear randomradio,

Well well well all I can say is that your sound like someone very sure of himself knowing everything.

You pick-up unchecked information and then you add lovely dreams you mix everything with unknown timelines and you have the receipt to create doubts in every man but you.

How is the Ministry of External Affairs Secretary unchecked information? He is talking about exporting Rafales from India to the UAE. So it's obvious that even if the UAE deal doesn't work out, Dassault is planning to export Rafales from India to other countries. I must keep reminding that Trappier is the chairman of DRAL in India. So it is in effect a Dassault run company even if Reliance holds the majority.

Bro, on another forum there are two people with MoD access to both countries. Our information is pretty solid. We have been talking about these things for more than 2 years now.

Have you also seen Picdel's opinion? Even he wants the Indian line to churn out 45 Rafales a year to take care of the entire international market while leaving France with only the 11 Rafales/year. He was number 4 in Dassault while he worked there. In fact, he wants France to import the AMCA for the French air force.

You see, people high up in the chain are very comfortable dealing with India. And they want to make pragmatic decisions. Decisions that benefit both countries.