UAE, India and the Rafale issue

[Louiq XIV]

Anyway, the production line is happening. The 200 orders is meant for full scale ToT. Dassault says if they get 200 orders, they will be able to bring in all the heavy work possible into India. Otherwise, even if we order just 36 more, these 36 will come from an Indian line, just that more work will be done in France before they are assembled in India
...
What Trappier said is they want a big bang order so they can do a deep ToT much quicker. Read the article and analyse his words properly please.
...
However, a larger order of close to 200 Rafale jets would be ideal to transfer high end technology and manufacturing capabilities to India at a `competitive level' the senior executive has said.

Dassault however believes that the current order of 36 jets would not be sufficient to transfer high end manufacturing or technology to India. Trappier said that extra orders would need to be placed by 2017-18 to come up with a larger Make in India plan that would involve shifting heavy work.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...next-decade/story-sICe1UFTRC0RxR3wkpLCZK.html
“Thirty six is a good number to start with but we need to build on that foundation. It is not big enough for transfer of technology,” Trappier told a select group of journalists at Aero India-2017. “We are pushing for more orders. We are aware of the Indian military’s requirements and additional orders could come.”

If India end with 200 Rafale it is totally normal that it get its production line. That is not a contestable claim.

The current plan is to make all Rafale spares in India, making India completely independent from import of spares. Apart from that, we will start with an assembly line also. If we are lucky, the last 20 jets of UAE's could be assembled in India. Apart from that, UAE Rafales, including a few other export countries, will get their spares and support from India. The ultimate plan is to shift the entire support structure of all international Rafales from France to India. So, only French Rafales will be supported by the French industry because of strategic reasons, while India will leverage its low cost structure and become the global hub for all international Rafales.

Also, what he means by 200 numbers is including the 36 GTG and 57 from IN. So he is basically asking for the IN deal + an order of about 110 jets to setup a production line with deep ToT, which is easily possible.

Trappier has been named the chairman of the Indian line. So I don't get what's the problem of the French members.

So far no problem because you won't 'be lucky'

How is the Ministry of External Affairs Secretary unchecked information?

I am old enough to remember GW Bush saying on TV to the entire world that Saddam Hussein had weapon of mass destruction so I don't take for granted politicians when they sound fake. And your Minister sounds not credible and I don't buy your excuse about English being his 2nd language. He is a high ranked official of India and you guys have good grasp of the English language. It can't be a mistake. It's just the proof of someone not knowing what he is talking about.

He is talking about exporting Rafales from India to the UAE. So it's obvious that even if the UAE deal doesn't work out, Dassault is planning to export Rafales from India to other countries.

Ditto my comment above.

I must keep reminding that Trappier is the chairman of DRAL in India. So it is in effect a Dassault run company even if Reliance holds the majority.

I have no doubt that an Indian production will be created for MII Rafale if you go over 36. And that is normal situation.

In fact, he wants France to import the AMCA for the French air force.

I don't know @Picdelamirand-oil but I've already read him on a French aviation forum and I highly doubt he said that France will import the AMCA. Work on it together why not but import ? no way.

You see, people high up in the chain are very comfortable dealing with India. And they want to make pragmatic decisions. Decisions that benefit both countries.

Oh yes to a balanced and fair cooperation with India but to make in India exported Rafale instead of filling the Mérignac production line is beyond what is acceptable for the French government.

But hey let's wait a few years and time will prove you wrong.

 

[Taygibay]

Don't read half here, half somewhere else and then bring your half knowledge into a discussion ... LOL
... where some of the other members are openly showing their hate for India.

Can't speak for others but I don't hate India, I'm
merely annoyed by the random Indian & acc. noise.

Odd and even ones are fine!


शुभकामनाएं, Tay.

 

[Khafee]

Can't speak for others but I don't hate India, I'm
merely annoyed by the random Indian & acc. noise.

Odd and even ones are fine!


शुभकामनाएं, Tay.

 

[randomradio]

I am old enough to remember GW Bush saying on TV to the entire world that Saddam Hussein had weapon of mass destruction so I don't take for granted politicians when they sound fake. And your Minister sounds not credible and I don't buy your excuse about English being his 2nd language. He is a high ranked official of India and you guys have good grasp of the English language. It can't be a mistake. It's just the proof of someone not knowing what he is talking about.

No, you are right, he speaks good English. Even then don't read too much into any mistakes he makes. He is still a very high level official. All you have to know is he talks about exporting Rafale from India.

The journalist Manu Pubby and the MEA Secretary are very good sources.

Plus, he is not a politician, he's a civil servant.
http://www.mea.gov.in/ser.htm

I don't know @Picdelamirand-oil but I've already read him on a French aviation forum and I highly doubt he said that France will import the AMCA. Work on it together why not but import ? no way.

Sure, order more and then have the production line. I was referring to a small number of orders. It's because by the time AMCA becomes available, not many M-2000s will be left. If you want production, then go for it. You can start replacing your oldest Rafales also. Even a catobar version will be made.

In fact, I don't support his opinion at all. I told him we can jointly develop a much more modern jet instead.

Oh yes to a balanced and fair cooperation with India but to make in India exported Rafale instead of filling the Mérignac production line is beyond what is acceptable for the French government.

French govt is also involved.

Hollande happily signed the IGA with Modi.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...nt-hollande/story-jbLU9gpGPX6RJiyI7sofAM.html
“The Rafale is a major project for India and France. It will pave the way for an unprecedented industrial and technological cooperation, including ‘Make in India’, for the next 40 years.

“Agreeing on the technicalities of this arrangement obviously takes time, but we are on the right track”, Hollande told PTI in an interview ahead of his visit beginning on Sunday.

'Make in India' itself has 'exports' written in it. That's part of the process.

But hey let's wait a few years and time will prove you wrong.

Sure. But I wouldn't hold on to that hope. Especially when whatever's happening is good for both countries.

Can't speak for others but I don't hate India, I'm
merely annoyed by the random Indian & acc. noise.

Odd and even ones are fine!


शुभकामनाएं, Tay.

I wasn't referring to you at all.

If India end with 200 Rafale it is totally normal that it get its production line. That is not a contestable claim.



So far no problem because you won't 'be lucky'



I am old enough to remember GW Bush saying on TV to the entire world that Saddam Hussein had weapon of mass destruction so I don't take for granted politicians when they sound fake. And your Minister sounds not credible and I don't buy your excuse about English being his 2nd language. He is a high ranked official of India and you guys have good grasp of the English language. It can't be a mistake. It's just the proof of someone not knowing what he is talking about.



Ditto my comment above.


I have no doubt that an Indian production will be created for MII Rafale if you go over 36. And that is normal situation.



I don't know @Picdelamirand-oil but I've already read him on a French aviation forum and I highly doubt he said that France will import the AMCA. Work on it together why not but import ? no way.



Oh yes to a balanced and fair cooperation with India but to make in India exported Rafale instead of filling the Mérignac production line is beyond what is acceptable for the French government.

But hey let's wait a few years and time will prove you wrong.

Defence cooperation with Qatar also:

He says defence manufacturing. So another country where we may at least end up selling spares to, in case they don't go beyond the 24 jets.

 

[Dash]

Man, you haven't understood what this thread is about at all. Start off from the first page.

I dont need to, because whatever might have been the start. you (people) ruined it.

Don't read half here, half somewhere else and then bring your half knowledge into a discussion where some of the other members are openly showing their hate for India.

There is a reason for that.

The current plan is to make all Rafale spares in India, making India completely independent from import of spares. Apart from that, we will start with an assembly line also

Samtel already makes HMD and other companies ar quite capable to make spares for rafale and thats fro a 20% local sourcing clause. Thank to the DPP.

However, a larger order of close to 200 Rafale jets would be ideal to transfer high end technology and manufacturing capabilities to India at a `competitive level' the senior executive has said.

How many Su 30 MKIs we have and dont we have an assembay line which was supposed to be ToT? You are reading too much into this and you clearly have no idea how these things work. Be it Modi/Parikar or MMS/Antony, its just the way works.

And my friend I cant stop you from saying whatever you are saying(I am not getting into facts here vis-aviz Rafale and the so called production line). But I cant stand people who in the name of FACTS, put our hardwork in bad light before it materializes.

And you dont anything about ToT. I am very sure of that now.

French were French when they sold Augusta to Pakistan, French were French when they sold some LGBs to India with ToT but the bombs didnt drop because they didnt supply the software to drop those embarrassing us. So dont read too much into what they say.

In fact no one EVEN Americans will help us. Thats a curse and blessing in disguise. Live with it.

 

[randomradio]

How many Su 30 MKIs we have and dont we have an assembay line which was supposed to be ToT? You are reading too much into this and you clearly have no idea how these things work. Be it Modi/Parikar or MMS/Antony, its just the way works.

And my friend I cant stop you from saying whatever you are saying(I am not getting into facts here vis-aviz Rafale and the so called production line). But I cant stand people who in the name of FACTS, put our hardwork in bad light before it materializes.

So basically you have no clue what's happening, but you wanna jump into the conversation with a hopelessly apologetic attitude towards people who are happily attacking the country?

And you dont anything about ToT. I am very sure of that now.

Of course I don't. But you obviously do, since you are comparing the MKI line with the Rafale.

Can you tell me who is the chairman of the MKI line and who is the chairman of the Indian Rafale line?

French were French when they sold Augusta to Pakistan,

And then they backtracked when the time came to selling avionics for the JF-17. French are French, they chase money, and in India, they are getting money. Dassault and Trappier want money, that's why they are in India. It's as simple as that.

French were French when they sold some LGBs to India with ToT but the bombs didnt drop because they didnt supply the software to drop those embarrassing us. So dont read too much into what they say.

Haha. What? I think you have your history mixed up.

In fact no one EVEN Americans will help us. Thats a curse and blessing in disguise. Live with it.

Dude, wtf are you even talking about?

Both gents here are claiming India sucks, and you are happily protecting them. You need to get your priority straight.

 

[randomradio]

@Taygibay @Khafee @Louiq XIV

Trappier talks about exports with more orders.
5:26.

 

[Louiq XIV]

@Taygibay @Khafee @Louiq XIV

Trappier talks about exports with more orders.
5:26.

"... and maybe also some exports we will see"

That is something Trappier sees as possible but the road is long for that. The way he says that to an Indian journalist while he is trying hard to sell more planes to the IAF and the Navy is understandable. Trappier has been working in the sales department of DA before he became CEO and I think he knows what to say to Indians smartly using 'if' & 'maybe'.

As I explained to you Trappier isn't the only one to decide such things and he won't be able to to it if the current production line in Mérignac is not at its maximum capacity due to extremely high pressure from our government.

So my opinion hasn't change that won't happen.

The only event I see that could lead to this would be a total crash of the F-35 program inducing huge amount of new & unexpected prospects for the Rafale but I don't believe in that story.

 

[Taygibay]

Journo
Q.: Would/will Dassault open a production line in India ...?

Trappier
A.: Yes, we would have manufactured here for 126 ACs.
Now, 36 is a good start. We expect to have more orders
in order to have a better depth of production and manu-
-facturing here in India so the answer is yes, we want to
have that capability here in India. It will depend on the
number of aircraft ordered, maybe also some exports,
We'll see.

What you make of that : Dassault will transfer all Rafale activity to India as in,
-Yes, we ... have a better depth of production and manufacturing here in India so the answer is ... exports .

What others understand :
Conditionally, if all goes well, some of the work done in India could be exported.

[ Now, let's be honest, when did all go well on an Indian mil project exactly? ]​

We get what you're saying alright, we just don't agree with you.

But do dream on, it's allowed, Tay.

 

[randomradio]

"... and maybe also some exports we will see"

That is something Trappier sees as possible but the road is long for that. The way he says that to an Indian journalist while he is trying hard to sell more planes to the IAF and the Navy is understandable. Trappier has been working in the sales department of DA before he became CEO and I think he knows what to say to Indians smartly using 'if' & 'maybe'.

As I explained to you Trappier isn't the only one to decide such things and he won't be able to to it if the current production line in Mérignac is not at its maximum capacity due to extremely high pressure from our government.

So my opinion hasn't change that won't happen.

The only event I see that could lead to this would be a total crash of the F-35 program inducing huge amount of new & unexpected prospects for the Rafale but I don't believe in that story.

There are two conditions for Indian exports to happen.

1. India needs to order more jets obviously. Or else production will only be restricted to assembly. So 90 jets minimum to setup a full production plant, then further orders after that. Perhaps the navy orders too. Of course, there's also a chance that no major orders will be given beyond another tranche of 36 and we may end up manufacturing a different twin engine jet. However, if India does order Rafales for production in India, then 200 are guaranteed. Our outgoing air chief said the same--
http://indianexpress.com/article/in...re-says-outgoing-air-chief-arup-raha-4449541/

2. Dassault still has to bag more export orders after UAE. This is obviously the most important. If there are no more export orders, then...

So, the point is, as long as the first 2 conditions are fulfilled, Dassault is open to export Rafales from India. And all my previous posts have considered the fact that the first 2 points have been fulfilled.

You see, all the journalist asked was if India will also have a production line. It was Trappier who volunteered with more information on exports as a possibility. The journo never asked anything about exports. It's because the production program has exports included. As I said before, it's part of the process. If the Indian Foreign Secretary is talking about exports and if Trappier is talking about exports, then you know this is not just some guy on the internet dreaming it all up. The 'dreaming' part is to get the actual export orders, that's something even Dassault is dreaming about.

This post answers @Taygibay's post as well.

[ Now, let's be honest, when did all go well on an Indian mil project exactly? ]​

​

That will be a failure from your side, not ours.

 

[Dash]

So basically you have no clue what's happening, but you wanna jump into the conversation with a hopelessly apologetic attitude towards people who are happily attacking the country?



Of course I don't. But you obviously do, since you are comparing the MKI line with the Rafale.

Can you tell me who is the chairman of the MKI line and who is the chairman of the Indian Rafale line?



And then they backtracked when the time came to selling avionics for the JF-17. French are French, they chase money, and in India, they are getting money. Dassault and Trappier want money, that's why they are in India. It's as simple as that.



Haha. What? I think you have your history mixed up.



Dude, wtf are you even talking about?

Both gents here are claiming India sucks, and you are happily protecting them. You need to get your priority straight.

You know what, I am sorry that I engaged with you. Please carry on. and BTW I was dogging bullets when you were getting born...So Spare me...DUDE

 

[war&peace]

So basically you have no clue what's happening, but you wanna jump into the conversation with a hopelessly apologetic attitude towards people who are happily attacking the country?



Of course I don't. But you obviously do, since you are comparing the MKI line with the Rafale.

Can you tell me who is the chairman of the MKI line and who is the chairman of the Indian Rafale line?



And then they backtracked when the time came to selling avionics for the JF-17. French are French, they chase money, and in India, they are getting money. Dassault and Trappier want money, that's why they are in India. It's as simple as that.



Haha. What? I think you have your history mixed up.



Dude, wtf are you even talking about?

Both gents here are claiming India sucks, and you are happily protecting them. You need to get your priority straight.

We have a guy from UAE so we should ask him @Khafee sir what is your opinion

 

[Taygibay]

That will be a failure from your side, not ours.

Sic erat scriptum!!!

It always takes two to tango. If your projects are slow
or inefficient, you can't blame Bofors here, Sukhoi here
and Dassault there especially when indigenous stuff
doesn't cut it either. It's called a trend and the common
point is your procurement ways.

Dassault has no problems making jets to begin with so
that if it encounters some in India, the first place to look
for answers will be in India.

Unless of course you meant that this simply can't happen?

Tsssk, Tay.

 

[Khafee]

We have a guy from UAE so we should ask him @Khafee sir what is your opinion

Rafale from India - Only in bharati dreams.

This clown even went so far as to say we would outsource our AF MRO to bharat. When on the contrary we are moving in the opposite direction.

Total joker, best to ignore him, and let him beat his chest.

 

[war&peace]

https://defence.pk/threads/uae-india-and-the-rafale-issue.477957/page-5#post-9214051
I'm not saying India will make UAE Rafales, the Indian line will be too young for that, but I'm saying they will be supported in India.

Man, you haven't understood what this thread is about at all. Start off from the first page.

Anyway, the production line is happening. The 200 orders is meant for full scale ToT. Dassault says if they get 200 orders, they will be able to bring in all the heavy work possible into India. Otherwise, even if we order just 36 more, these 36 will come from an Indian line, just that more work will be done in France before they are assembled in India.

Don't read half here, half somewhere else and then bring your half knowledge into a discussion where some of the other members are openly showing their hate for India.

What Trappier said is they want a big bang order so they can do a deep ToT much quicker. Read the article and analyse his words properly please.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...n-india-dassault-ceo/articleshow/57160249.cms
However, a larger order of close to 200 Rafale jets would be ideal to transfer high end technology and manufacturing capabilities to India at a `competitive level' the senior executive has said.

Dassault however believes that the current order of 36 jets would not be sufficient to transfer high end manufacturing or technology to India. Trappier said that extra orders would need to be placed by 2017-18 to come up with a larger Make in India plan that would involve shifting heavy work.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...next-decade/story-sICe1UFTRC0RxR3wkpLCZK.html
“Thirty six is a good number to start with but we need to build on that foundation. It is not big enough for transfer of technology,” Trappier told a select group of journalists at Aero India-2017. “We are pushing for more orders. We are aware of the Indian military’s requirements and additional orders could come.”

The current plan is to make all Rafale spares in India, making India completely independent from import of spares. Apart from that, we will start with an assembly line also. If we are lucky, the last 20 jets of UAE's could be assembled in India. Apart from that, UAE Rafales, including a few other export countries, will get their spares and support from India. The ultimate plan is to shift the entire support structure of all international Rafales from France to India. So, only French Rafales will be supported by the French industry because of strategic reasons, while India will leverage its low cost structure and become the global hub for all international Rafales.

Also, what he means by 200 numbers is including the 36 GTG and 57 from IN. So he is basically asking for the IN deal + an order of about 110 jets to setup a production line with deep ToT, which is easily possible.

Trappier has been named the chairman of the Indian line. So I don't get what's the problem of the French members.



Don't get caught up by the exact words he used. He probably means 'buying'. English is obviously not his second language.



UAE is going for the Rafale. It is a planned purchase and India is also involved. That's where the strategic relationship is headed between the three countries.



How is the Ministry of External Affairs Secretary unchecked information? He is talking about exporting Rafales from India to the UAE. So it's obvious that even if the UAE deal doesn't work out, Dassault is planning to export Rafales from India to other countries. I must keep reminding that Trappier is the chairman of DRAL in India. So it is in effect a Dassault run company even if Reliance holds the majority.

Bro, on another forum there are two people with MoD access to both countries. Our information is pretty solid. We have been talking about these things for more than 2 years now.

Have you also seen Picdel's opinion? Even he wants the Indian line to churn out 45 Rafales a year to take care of the entire international market while leaving France with only the 11 Rafales/year. He was number 4 in Dassault while he worked there. In fact, he wants France to import the AMCA for the French air force.

You see, people high up in the chain are very comfortable dealing with India. And they want to make pragmatic decisions. Decisions that benefit both countries.

Why are you distorting the facts and lying...what about some facts and credible info?