Time to abandon Ummah / brotherhood for greater good of the nation?

[somebozo]

Sir the concept of Ummah is very clear and it is above the false GOD of Nationalism and it binds Muslims in the strongest form of brotherhood under one Kalmah and and it is above race and colour and area and betraying it is Kufr because you directly deny and defy orders of ALLAH in Quran and Hadees of HAZRAT MUHAMMMAD SAW

It bind in the same way parrot repeats Azan five times a day. You sir are constantly trolling with copy paste propaganda without engaging in constructive debate.

What does the Koran say about Italian Catholic criminal gangs? (noticed you have "mafia" as your avatar)

dead on..I cant stop laughing..may be he does belong to a mafia..of different kind..Mullah Mafia..or Lal Masjid Mafia or Taliban Mafia!

 

[Armstrong]

So, we should abandon reality and continue to live in some fantasy land?

Najd is the desert part of Saudi arabia. From there, the extremist form of Islam emerged which plagued so many countries starting from afghanistan to chechnya. Hence, the "najdi imperialism".

No because if we did abandon your 'reality' we wouldn't have the license to claim 'Wahabi this and Wahabi that' without realizing that the biggest mass murderer of the contemporary Muslim world OBL was not inspired by Abdul Wahab but by Syed Qutb (an Egyptian) and to a certain extent by Ibn Tamiyyah and Ibn Qayyim - both of whom were from what became Syria ! Nor would we be talking about either US Imperialism or even Russian Imperialism but would still have the temerity of talking about 'Nejadi Imperialism' when the ideology of Al Qaeeda isn't even 'Wahabism' but something that can be called 'Qutbism' !

A farce of a wars of the United States that killed anywhere between a few hundred thousand to a million Iraqis (depending upon which estimate is listened to) for WMDs ended without finding even a blOody firecracker is much more that the Saudis ever did ! Russian Imperialism that has showed her ugly face in everything from Chechnya to Georgia ! Whatever happened or continues to happen in Chechnya is because of Russia's unlawful annexation of Chechnya at the end of the Caucasian War and the fabrications (read Stepashins' comments) that resulted in the Second Chechen War ! That coupled with the War with Georgia and the incessant interference in Moldova's domestic issues namely 'Transistria' outshines whatever the Saudis have ever come up with !

 

[somebozo]

No because if we did abandon your 'reality' we wouldn't have the license to claim 'Wahabi this and Wahabi that' without realizing that the biggest mass murderer of the contemporary Muslim world OBL was not inspired by Abdul Wahab but by Syed Qutb (an Egyptian) and to a certain extent by Ibn Tamiyyah and Ibn Qayyim - both of who were from what became Syria ! Nor would we be talking about either US Imperialism or even Russian Imperialism but we'd continue harping about 'Nejadi Imperialism' when the ideology of Al Qaeeda isn't even 'Wahabism' but something that can be called 'Qutbism' nor does the Saudi Royal family fund any of the activities of Al Qaeeda !

Didnt we already establish the reality that there is no such thing as Wahabi..and Mr Wahab work all of it deals with basic principles of religion he did not even write anything remotely about warfare.

Regardless of where ever OBL derives his ideology - doesnt change the facts there are are bunch of extremist mullahs on the loose in najd or else how would 15 hijackers be Saudis?

The crime of those 15 is being punished on us today.

 

[Zarvan]

It bind in the same way parrot repeats Azan five times a day. You sir are constantly trolling with copy paste propaganda without engaging in constructive debate.



dead on..I cant stop laughing..may be he does belong to a mafia..of different kind..Mullah Mafia..or Lal Masjid Mafia or Taliban Mafia!

Sir when order of Islam is clear than you don't give your thoughts and talk crap things which are against Islam No Muslim can abandon Ummah to do this first he has to accept himself as Kafir only than he can abandon Ummah and apostasy has punishment of death in Islam Sir

 

[somebozo]

Sir when order of Islam is clear than you don't give your thoughts and talk crap things which are against Islam No Muslim can abandon Ummah to do this first he has to accept himself as Kafir only than he can abandon Ummah and apostasy has punishment of death in Islam Sir

If you say so let us be kafir..we should rename Pakistan to Kafir republic of Pakistan...atleast they are not suffering from some Pan-blah blah syndrome! After all in the eyes of mullahs - the founder of Pakistan was and still is a Kafir..seriously the Kafirs are not doing that bad - atleast they are not killing their own people and beheading their own soldiers. By the way where was this brotherhood when bunch of TTP terrorist were beheading Pak Army jawans?? Now you will come up with a theory to justify that as well..

How the hell are you to decide an award a punishment?? Islamic Lenin, Stalin or Mao???

Geo Kafir...Kufr ker ke Geo..

Happy now?

 

[vsdoc]

Some people have corrupted the meaning of the word Ummah so much that they have destroyed the meaning beyond recognition.

Ummah is to refer to a community of people. It is a term similar to humankind. It can refer to the Muslim Ummah if you want to refer only to Muslims. The United Nations is called Ummah Muttahida in Arabic. And in Islam, it refers to the entire community of nations Muslims and Non-Muslims that are living peacefully. When Prophet Muhammed (SAW) wrote the constitution of Medina, the Jews and other non-Muslims of Median were included in the definition of Ummah

The Ummah or community of people should show their genous nature or Ummahness by helping out the people in Somalia, Afghanistan and Yemen. It is the people donating and volunteering for the causes for helping the poor in their community regardless of his religion because he belongs to their Ummah or community. It was about feeding, clothing. sheltering the needy. Has that been done? Is anyone considering THIS aspect of Ummah? What is being done on this regard?
The Ummah is about these social values, it was about the universal values of Islam at a personal and social level.


Unfortunately we have bunch of people who have corrupted Ummah into meaning some sort of political / military bloc and that Ummah should be used as a tool to further their political interests of Pakistan. The former PM Bhutto had this in mind when he held his OIC summit and it is a shameful use of Islam and "Ummah".

India has no problem with any other Muslim country in the world, but for its own selfish interests which Pakistani leaders put above the "Ummah", Yahya Khan refused to join OIC even though India had been invited as a founding member. What it seems is that Ummah should sacrifice everything to help Pakistan's political ambition vis a vis India. This use of Islam as a political tool is very wrong and has to end. The leadership of all other countries who were skeptical about India during the Cold war have now seen through this facade and Pakistan can no longer fool other countries.


The title should say
Time to abandon using Islam as a political tool to use it against India and fool the Pakistani public for the greater good of the nation

because that is what the thread is really referring in the name of Ummah when in reality it has nothing to do with it.

First there was the US lap where Pakistani elite jumped into in hoping to "defeat India", when that didn't work it was the "Ummah" . Now that since the end of cold war and particularly post 9/11 that doesn't work either, it is now the Chinese lap.

Lets just cut the chase, realise that India was, is and will be the most important country/partner/entity that Pakistan will have to deal with for the rest of its "life" and it has to mend its relations with India.

Respect, brother.

 

[Armstrong]

Didnt we already establish the reality that there is no such thing as Wahabi..and Mr Wahab work all of it deals with basic principles of religion he did not even write anything remotely about warfare.

Regardless of where ever OBL derives his ideology - doesnt change the facts there are are bunch of extremist mullahs on the loose in najd or else how would 15 hijackers be Saudis?

The crime of those 15 is being punished on us today.

How would 15 hijackers be Saudis....? The same way OBL got inspired by an Egyptian ! So no it doesn't point to any fact that there are a bunch of extremist mullahs in KSA on the loose specially when their own ideology doesn't, by your own admission, talk about 'warfare' but the basid principles of religion and that the clergy is heavily regulated by the State ! If the Saudis would be exporting any kind of 'Imperialism' it would have less a religious connotation and more with something to do with 'Petrol' like in '79 !

And no the crimes of those 15 aren't being punished on us till today but rather the crimes of thousands that we created in the '80s to fight the Afghan Jihad and then nurtured because our allies bailed out instead of rehabilitating a nation where generations knew nothing but violence !

 

[somebozo]

How would 15 hijackers be Saudis....? The same way OBL got inspired by an Egyptian ! So no it doesn't point to any fact that there are a bunch of extremist mullahs in KSA on the loose specially when their own ideology doesn't, by your own admission, talk about 'warfare' but the basid principles of religion and that the clergy is heavily regulated by the State ! If the Saudis would be exporting any kind of 'Imperialism' it would have less a religious connotation and more with something to do with 'Petrol' like in '79 !

Come on dear i grew up during the fahad era and heard it all..from the hate sermons to jihadi propagation. I was myself at one point radicalized and my family having largely a deobandi background played active role in Afghan war. It takes a bit of head cracking and courage to confront reality.

Back in those days, any crackhead wanting to die for religion and cursing the west and all forms of technology and modern education would be a "model" youth. Government poured unlimited money and authority into mutaween to radicalize the youth as they please. Enrolling in a madrassah was much easier than finding admission in university - heck there werent even many universities back then. A classic case of discouraging modern education and much of the government appointments were made on religious grounds and quran memorization.

What your see is not necessarily what you should believe..

And no the crimes of those 15 aren't being punished on us till today but rather the crimes of thousands that we created in the '80s to fight the Afghan Jihad and then nurtured because our allies bailed out instead of rehabilitating a nation where generations knew nothing but violence !

Afghan at large fought out of nationalism and were extremely averse to religious coloring of their war. Sh_t hit the fan when we started considering Afghanistan as our strategic backyard. 100% our fault! We know it!

 

[laiqs@mi]

once again i renew my old post. please answer my 2 question.
Ok here for non muslim if they say muslims should not become an ummah is understandable but muslims????
for non muslims i have no need to argue because our priorities are different we follow different religions and our beliefs are not the same.
But for muslims who are arguing here i have just 2 questions
1. it is mention in Quran if you believe that Quran is ALLAH pak's word then how could a muslim argue against???
or are you more knowledgeable??
2. if right now dajjal arrives what would you people do?? if it arrives in Iran then you people say leave it to iranians it is there problem???
if it reaches KSA you people will say leave it to them ???
if Pakistan then other muslims will say leave it is pakistan's problem to deal with it???
it is part of our eman to support a brotherhood between muslims.
or
you are going on same ways like bani isreal??
few people on other thread said Mecca and Madina are protected by ALLAH and he will protect them. but is it not our responsibility to defend it??

 

[King Solomon]

How would 15 hijackers be Saudis....? The same way OBL got inspired by an Egyptian ! So no it doesn't point to any fact that there are a bunch of extremist mullahs in KSA on the loose specially when their own ideology doesn't, by your own admission, talk about 'warfare' but the basid principles of religion and that the clergy is heavily regulated by the State ! If the Saudis would be exporting any kind of 'Imperialism' it would have less a religious connotation and more with something to do with 'Petrol' like in '79 !

And no the crimes of those 15 aren't being punished on us till today but rather the crimes of thousands that we created in the '80s to fight the Afghan Jihad and then nurtured because our allies bailed out instead of rehabilitating a nation where generations knew nothing but violence !

So, it is afghan "jihad". The usual hypocrisy of fanatics. How about the "jihad" which pakistani taliban does by killing your people? How about the "jihad" by separatist movements of your country? How about the "jihad" of your political parties. So why don't you join these "jihads"?

Please do not show your hypocrisy by having one sided view. Analyse all sides and then come to conclusion. You are a very good example of someone influenced by what we call "Najdi imperialism",.

 

[somebozo]

once again i renew my old post. please answer my 2 question.

Go back to the previous page and read

http://www.defence.pk/forums/strate...rhood-greater-good-nation-26.html#post2934331


It is already answered - don't be a trolling parrot.

 

[laiqs@mi]

and are you from those muslims who think that we should change our religion a bit to fit in 21st century???
and do you people think Imam mehdi is just an imaginary person. and if he comes in this time then what you people would say ??? our national priorities are enough we can't come to help you???

 

[somebozo]

and are you from those muslims who think that we should change our religion a bit to fit in 21st century???
and do you people think Imam mehdi is just an imaginary person. and if he comes in this time then what you people would say ??? our national priorities are enough we can't come to help you???

You know all of you people repeat the same pattern and arguments. Its like reading from a standard teleprompter. Its so pathetic that it not even worth to debate for.

Has Imam Mehdi arrived yet?? NO

We will see when he does..no point on concentrating on the past which is done or the future which is yet an uncertainty. Hundreds of generations have pass waiting for Mr Mahdi and effectively wasting their time - nothing else. We should do something constructive and productive instead of listening to Mullahs..

Mind you, many people have robbed fellow Muslims in the name of Imam Mehdi so this is something we could concentrate on education to eradicate our jahilya of our people. This sounds like a strategy of good national Jihad!

 

[Armstrong]

Come on dear i grew up during the fahad era and heard it all..from the hate sermons to jihadi propagation. I was myself at one point radicalized and my family having largely a deobandi background played active role in Afghan war. It takes a bit of head cracking and courage to confront reality.

Back in those days, any crackhead wanting to die for religion and cursing the west and all forms of technology and modern education would be a "model" youth. Government poured unlimited money and authority into mutaween to radicalize the youth as they please. Enrolling in a madrassah was much easier than finding admission in university - heck there werent even many universities back then. A classic case of discouraging modern education and much of the government appointments were made on religious grounds and quran memorization.

What your see is not necessarily what you should believe..

And I do blame Pakistanis for it...but where does Nejadi Imperialism come into the picture ? And there is a hell of a difference between Deobandis of Pakistan and Wahabis of KSA ! Our equivalent of the Wahabism are the 'Ahle Sunnat' not the Deobandis so how the hell could the Saudis export their ideology to Pakistan when an overwhelming number of seminaries in Pakistan are of Deobandi origin and not Ahle-Sunnat !

Afghan at large fought out of nationalism and were extremely averse to religious coloring of their war. Sh_t hit the fan when we started considering Afghanistan as our strategic backyard. 100% our fault! We know it!

On the contrary when people like Ahmed Shah Masood, Hikmatyaar and Dostum were called 'the Mujahideen' and zakats were poured in from all corners of the world...it doesn't get any more 'religiously coloured' then that ! And no it wasn't our fault a 100%...everyone was involved, Pakistan wasn't the one calling the shots...we were one of many ! Heck even China was on-board ! It was our fault in thinking that the rest of them would stick around and then rehabilitate the Afghans after the lot of us had created the 'Holy Warriors' to fight that farce of a Jihad !

 

[laiqs@mi]

Allah in the Qur’an describes what is unity in Islam as the Mu’minoon (Believers; those that believe in Allah and His Messenger Muhammad) being united in a Brotherhood based on solely Islam:

“The Mu’minoon are but a single Brotherhood.” (The Holy Qur’an, 49:10)

Allah further defines this Brotherhood by explaining that Muslims are awliyyaa’ (allies, friends, supporters) of one another, and this again is based solely on Islam:

“The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin the ma`roof (all of Islam), and forbid the munkar (all that is evil; kufr): they observe regular prayers, pay Zakat, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise.” (The Holy Qur’an, 9:71)

Muhammad (Salla Allahu `alaihi wa sallam) indicated in several Ahadith on unity and brotherhood as we can see in his (saaws) Farewell Sermon (khuTbat ul-wadaa`):

“All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood.”

Other Ahadith further elaborate on the concept of unity and brotherhood:

"A Muslim is the brother of another Muslim. He does not oppress him, nor does he leave him at the mercy of others." (Sahih Muslim Book 032, Number 6219)

The Prophet said, "None of you will have faith till he wishes for his (Muslim) brother what he likes for himself." (Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 12)

When he arrived then we can think about it. Prophet SAW has advised the muslims to stay away from dajjal and stay away from the areas he is known to be present. So just, that is exactly what we should do. Leave it on to them.

and then do you belive about Qabar and the questions that would be asked there???