Myths of 1971–Time for Redemption

[HAIDER]

@Signalian when you have time , check out this book ..

 

[PakFactor]

This says more than enough about Pakistan Army:

According to Rear Admiral M. Sharif (Witness No. 283) who was the Flag Officer Commanding the Pakistan Navy in East Pakistan, "the foundation of this defeat was laid way back in 1958 when the Armed Forces took over the country ..." While learning the art of politics in this newly assigned role to themselves, they gradually abandoned their primary function of the art of soldiering, they also started amassing wealth and usurping status for themselves. Similar views were expressed before us by Commodore I.H. Malik (Witness No. 272) who was the Chairman of the Chittagong Port Trust until the day of surrender, Brigadier S.S.A Qasim, former Commander Artillery, Eastern Command, Col. Mansoorul Haw Malik, former GS-I, 9 division, East Pakistan, and Col. Ijaz Ahmad (Witness No. 247) former Colonel Staff (GS) Eastern Command, to mention only a few.

Hamoodur Rahman Commission Report.PDF (dunyanews.tv)

Our current state isn't that far off; as for the rest of what's posted by the OP plastering, nonsense makes no difference, as the outcome is what matters and what caused it. Again, you have a failure from the political and military realm. Neither did the job. It was appropriately assigned, and they preferred stepping on each other's tails. The "Myths" posted on the first page are useless reads to cover up the failure of military planning and logistics.

You had a general assigned to your territory detached from you by a hostile force who was busy in his pan export business than his duties as a soldier. For all intents and purposes, and as the record shows, he was a rapist in Lahore and Sialkot; people knew, I'm sure high command knew, yet you still shifted him there to command.

The icing on the cake is this, all parties were given a slap on their wrist, and they burned all additional copies of the report and handed the final document to none other than Zulifqar Ali Bhutto, the same individual who caused this mayhem in the first place. An individual who ripped Pakistan behind, making it a septic nation that drowns in its waste, jab zayada pani ata.

Sadke Jawan is Fauj per!

 

[Acetic Acid]

My guy discussing defence of dhaka

 

[VkdIndian]

I have objection to the very intent of a thread like this.

What is redemption? Is it disowning a defeat or various facts about an event? That is what appears to be the attempt here.

Weren’t atrocities committed by PA in East Pakistan?
There is definitely a conflict on the numbers and some of the numbers are highly exaggerated. It is already a widely accepted fact within Paksiatn and no such thread would have been required.

I am sure military historians across the world know about the likely numbers of surrendered, numbers killed and raped. The fact remains that atrocities were done. Would reduced numbers of rape or killings make them less heinous? Can someone say with pride, we raped only few thousand and not millions?

Was planning and execution anywhere close to desired? Militarily as well as diplomatically it was a fiasco for Paksiatn.
Bajwa recently said, it was a political failure. Some others are echoing a similar sentiment. What a farce of a statement was that? Wasn’t army controlling all political affairs in the East, before that fiasco? Military and politics were enmeshed so deeply that both will have to take the blame for that failure.

Some times, redemption is in accepting a mistake, with head held high and a promise not to repeat it. Not trying to change very elements of an act in the garb of redemption.

 

[Bilal9]

My guy discussing defence of dhaka
View attachment 906294

Ya Allah - aur ek dented+painted cheez.....

 

[PakFactor]

I have objection to the very intent of a thread like this.

What is redemption? Is it disowning a defeat or various facts about an event? That is what appears to be the attempt here.

Weren’t atrocities committed by PA in East Pakistan?
There is definitely a conflict on the numbers and some of the numbers are highly exaggerated. It is already a widely accepted fact within Paksiatn and no such thread would have been required.

I am sure military historians across the world know about the likely numbers of surrendered, numbers killed and raped. The fact remains that atrocities were done. Would reduced numbers of rape or killings make them less heinous? Can someone say with pride, we raped only few thousand and not millions?

Was planning and execution anywhere close to desired? Militarily as well as diplomatically it was a fiasco for Paksiatn.
Bajwa recently said, it was a political failure. Some others are echoing a similar sentiment. What a farce of a statement was that? Wasn’t army controlling all political affairs in the East, before that fiasco? Military and politics were enmeshed so deeply that both will have to take the blame for that failure.

Some times, redemption is in accepting a mistake, with head held high and a promise not to repeat it. Not trying to change very elements of an act in the garb of redemption.

Your bold part exactly. I'm still trying to figure out how debunking those myths is redemption. Unless I didn't offer my Fajr namaz properly, there is no redemption; this fault squarely falls on the military because they were the political force running the country.

What Bajwa said shows his intellectual stupidity as an individual, officer, and state's man, a mental default of an individual. On top of whoever wrote that dumpster fire of a speech.

 

[SIPRA]

My guy discussing defence of dhaka
View attachment 906294

General was very fond of fluffy and pulpy ladies.

 

[White privilege]

Every war is different from the other ones. You want the exact one? Sorry can’t give. Allies are created and made when a nations integrity is hanging by a thread. WILL, Desire, capability etc are required for that.

There wasn’t just one aspect to that war. I have referred to varied issues in each post, based on the discussion at hand. Not to shift from one reason to the other.

In any war both the sides make good and bad decisions in planning and execution. At the end, the winners gambles turn into good ones while looser’s become bad. Mostly, not all.

So, there is no attempt to shift the goal posts.

In 1967, Israel displayed a unique way of fighting war and rewrote the doctrines. Would experts have thought of that kind of war till then. There are multiple examples in the history including WW II where commanders rewrote the tactics that no one had thought about. I am sure you have read it all since you quoted Rommel and likes.

Paksiatn, had a chance to do the same. When the war clouds started gathering, what did Paksiatn do? Did it consider something radical? India prepared over more than an year. Paksiatn slept. When war started, there was obviously capability mismatch because your leaders were sleeping before that.

Why were they sleeping? Lechery and corruption was ONE of the reasons. Fine wine, women and ill gotten money probably made status quo the best thing for them. Unlike Rommel, for whom women was just a side kick and not the end of all means. For these lecherous men women was probably the end.

As I said earlier, the goal post is very wide and no one’s needs to shift it.
More one digs, more dirt will come out.

I have objection to the very intent of a thread like this.

What is redemption? Is it disowning a defeat or various facts about an event? That is what appears to be the attempt here.

Weren’t atrocities committed by PA in East Pakistan?
There is definitely a conflict on the numbers and some of the numbers are highly exaggerated. It is already a widely accepted fact within Paksiatn and no such thread would have been required.

I am sure military historians across the world know about the likely numbers of surrendered, numbers killed and raped. The fact remains that atrocities were done. Would reduced numbers of rape or killings make them less heinous? Can someone say with pride, we raped only few thousand and not millions?

Was planning and execution anywhere close to desired? Militarily as well as diplomatically it was a fiasco for Paksiatn.
Bajwa recently said, it was a political failure. Some others are echoing a similar sentiment. What a farce of a statement was that? Wasn’t army controlling all political affairs in the East, before that fiasco? Military and politics were enmeshed so deeply that both will have to take the blame for that failure.

Some times, redemption is in accepting a mistake, with head held high and a promise not to repeat it. Not trying to change very elements of an act in the garb of redemption.

Well u have shifted goalposts regularly, it is very obvious from the discussion.

About the 1967 war, Israel was the underdog, yes, but it also had only a single contiguous piece of geography to defend, which it had practiced for over a decade. Also there was no Mukti behind their lines and Americans were just a phone call away anyway, so not really the same situation.

It is very clear about the world war examples. Rommel and Paulus were defeated despite being respected and competent. And Japanese had to be nuked because they were not willing to give up, despite their moral flaws and war crimes. Mongol example shows that questionable character and competence can co-exist, so why do u insist it cannot be the case here?? Everywhere, the strategic situation was the deciding factor.

The reason you are triggered by such debates, is because when "myths" are cleared up, your "victory" would automatically appear lesser and inevitable. You don't want that. It wouldn't have been the case if Indians hadn't peddled ,and built a reputation based on lies for fifty years.

Furthermore, about the 'attrocities' part, well , questioning inflated figures from the enemy does not mean justification. It is the Indians who have worked hard to create these 'myths' for their benefit. Also the atrocities committed by Indians and Mukti, they are also part of the picture.

 

[-=virus=-]

Durrani and Dulat ki kitab padho, bas,

That's the game, warts and all..

 

[Signalian]

@Signalian when you have time , check out this book ..

View attachment 906272

any download link ?

 

[HAIDER]

any download link ?

Try create account and request for read

Three presidents and an aide : life, power and politics / Arshad Sami Khan ; consulting editor, A.K.... | National Library of Australia

 

[ThunderCat]

@Signalian when you have time , check out this book ..

View attachment 906272

Does this book refute the myths of the 1971 war?

 

[HAIDER]

Does this book refute the myths of the 1971 war?

Read it you will enjoy... the writer is ex-bureaucrat and the father of Adnan Sami Khan.

 

[VkdIndian]

victory" would automatically appear lesser

Victory is never lesser or more. It remains a victory. I don’t know how a person can make it a lesser of a defeat because they raped and killed lesser than advertised by the adversary? Inspite of loosing a major chunk of its land mass.

Attempt is being made to make this loss appear to be a fait accompli. Attempt to say that there was no failure by anyone by propagating this fait accompli theory. That is the bigger game in this redemption saga.

Bajwa tried to wash away the sins of his army by statement of his and he has set the ball rolling for his followers to take that job further.

Paksiatn Army is squarely and directly blameworthy in this fiasco. They can’t wash away their hands from each and every failure that came your way.

single contiguous piece of geography to defend

You have hung on to, two far away land theory too much. You seem to be convinced that there was now way to defend a nation with separate land masses.
1967 Arab Israel war wasn’t about a contiguous piece but about tactics used by Israel to rewrite the way a war is fought. Israel didn’t give up because it is a small nation with lesser capabilities at that time. It turned the tables on the adversary by innovative and daring methods. Now, don’t start counting numbers and say that your situation was different.

Your generals were required to work out their own asymmetry. Which they never did. They kept sleeping on their back side till the war started when India imposed it’s will.

In the garb of redemption of just few aspects an attempt is being made to wash away bigger sins of those who indulged in debauchery, political lust, corruption and cowardice.

 

[Goenitz]