Myths of 1971–Time for Redemption

[Rusty2]

These threads are getting ever so tiresome.
Pakistanis need to accept that we lost and Indians need to stop pretending they have big d!cks since even a monkey could could won given the conditions the Indians were given.

 

[White privilege]

Add to this, single Pakistan Airforce squadron of F-86 Sabres with 16 aircraft facing Ten Indian Air Force's squadrons. Three of these equipped with MiG-21s with the rest made up of SU-7s, Hunters, Gnats and Canbera bombers plus Caribou transport converted for night bombing.
The single PAF squadron was grounded within 48 hours of hostilities... Before that in combat, it shot down 11 Indian jets for the loss of five F-86s.
In subsequent two weeks of the war, the IAF continued to bomb the single PAF airbase but failed to hit even one of the eleven grounded Sabres. However in the process lost another 17 aircraft to Pak army gunners.

This actually is very interesting. Indians had one . One airfield that cannot be relocated, still they could not destroy it completely. Even a carefully conceived elongated OCA over Dhaka could have been used to lure the PAF into a flock of fighters (10:1 advantage in India's favor).

 

[PanzerKiel]

This actually is very interesting. Indians had one . One airfield that cannot be relocated, still they could not destroy it completely. Even a carefully conceived elongated OCA over Dhaka could have been used to lure the PAF into a flock of fighters (10:1 advantage in India's favor).

It might had to do with runway repair as well.

In 1971 , the IAF quickly put out of commission the seven Pakistani fighter air fields (Main & Satellite combined) in East Pakistan. It first put Dacca out of action. The airfield was repaired in four hours. The IAF then reattacked and this time the airfield was repaired in six hours. The third time the IAF caught the repair crews in the open killing or wounding about 80 men, and after the PAF simply gave up leaving Dacca permanently out of commission.

Generally in those time, bases were repaired within 6 to 8 hours. The 1971 Eastern example is not relevant today. Against the lone fighter squadron based in the East, India deployed ten combat squadrons and there was a huge disparity in performance between the F-86 and the IAF Su-7s and Mig-21s. When 16 aircraft had to protect seven fighter fields (Main & Satellite combined) and the entire Eastern wing to boot we need not be surprised that India succeeded so easily. And even then Pakistan was still flying from Dacca as late as seven days into the war. If runway attack techniques and weapons have increased lethality, airfield repair techniques have also improved. One simple solution can be to simply increase the number of runway repair teams assigned to each base.

 

[Meengla]

The OP article is spot on. There is a lot of misinformation about the events leading to and after the 1971 war. I saw an excellent BBC documentary recently where there were reporters on the ground in Dhaka in late 1971; per that documentary, Pakistan had almost no military presence in Dhaka left--at least not visibly. The gun toting Mukti Bahini were slaughtering innocent people and the documentary wondered where were they getting the weapons from--not much guess is needed.

As for the postage stamp, well, you know the higher the number presented to the international community, the more the chance of some action to get the prisoners released. I certainly don't think even half of those were Pakistani 'soldiers'. A lot of people with sympathies for 'Pakistan' in E. Pakistan deliberately--and wisely-- chose to be rather in Indian prisons then be slaughtered by the vigilantes. And to give credit to the Indians, the prisons were not subjected to too harsh treatment.

I wish Bangladesh well. Pakistan can learn a lot from them. But I also believe that marriage was not even supposed to happen. There is no 'B' in 'Pakistan'. Not even a lose federation should have been arranged in 1947. But that was done and the charade was carried on for 24 years but in the minds of the West Pakistani leadership, the E. Pakistan was not really an integral part of 'Pakistan'. The wars between India and Pakistan were mostly limited to the W. Pakistan and India border until 1971.

Anyway, I am glad articles like in the OP are being published. Pakistanis should not be constantly breast-beating about the 'loss' of E. Pakistan. Truth is definitely somewhere in the middle, as it almost always is, however many times said otherwise and how many times the victors get to right the History.

 

[my2cents]

Arnab does what arnab wants, he's a funny bastard. But that doesn't mean to say that others didn't fan out the propaganda further, spewing it all over the Internet.


I agree with the rest of your post up until you mention 65 and kargil.

With 65 and Kargil, it was India that pushed past the IB and formally declared war on Pakistan, with the aim of taking Lahore, Singh and GT Road. None of those objectives were met. Every single one of them failed miserably. As for Kargil, India did not complete operation vijay which was to take back all the peaks and posts occupied by Pakistan. India only took back 2 in the initial conflict and later took 2 more after wards. The other 4 peaks remain under Pakistani control. 8 peaks were taken, we still have half of them. That's not a victory

Initial goal was to secure the highway and was achieved with bofor guns bombarding the peaks. And other peaks were isolated from getting support from the base. Hence less than ideal situation but we were able to starve the troops on the peaks. Your narrative that it was mujahideen that occupied the peaks was busted when we captured your army men. We were successful in building international pressure on your country to withdraw your forces. Your government got toppled by your military and rest is history. So, tell me what have you achieved by this military operation other than occupy few peaks. Your elected government was toppled and you had to face military rule for a decade.

 

[VkdIndian]

The title of the thread should be changed to

“Myths of 1971–Time to Accept and reconcile”

Why has the report of Hamoodur Rahman Commission remained classified? Rather than trying to change the narrative peace meal, why isn’t this report made public? The commision must have analysed the charges of mass killing and atrocities against East Pakistanis. Why not release atleast that part of the report to get the record straight?

Powers that be would never allow this report to go public. Because it would expose a lot of lies being peddled by these very people in power and lapped up by common people.
Some of those making way to forums like this.

 

[-=virus=-]

"They fought gallantly.." - Sam Manekshaw

 

[HAIDER]

For the consideration of human life ???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[-=virus=-]

"What could the poor bengali do against the pushtoons and the punjabis ?" - Sam Manekshaw

Damn hilsakhor lungi losers, Pak should be thankful we cured their cancerous wart of an eastern wing.

 

[langda khan]

"They fought gallantly.." - Sam Manekshaw

He was an old school Brit trained soldier. Even today, professional soldiers will seldom abuse enemy professionals. Their real opinion is shared in mess bars and over golf. Something you and me will not be privy to.

"What could the poor bengali do against the pushtoons and the punjabis ?" - Sam Manekshaw

Damn hilsakhor lungi losers, Pak should be thankful we cured their cancerous wart of an eastern wing.

He was also big on facts and small on useless window dressing. Even and especially with our then PM.

 

[VkdIndian]

They fought gallantly.." - Sam Manekshaw

1971 atrocities in the East and loss was all about the military and political leadership and not junior officers and soldiers. The leadership failed them.

Hamoodur Rahman Commission was established to analyse the debacle of 1971. The main report has vanished from the archives of the GHQ. Only the supplementary report remains that too was leaked recently and never released officially. This is the excerpt from that report-


“3. There is consensus on the imperative need of bringing to book those senior Army Commanders who have brought disgrace and defeat to Pakistan by their subversion of the Constitution, usurpation of political power by criminal conspiracy, their professional incompetence, culpable negligence and wilful neglect in the performance of their duties and physical and moral cowardice in abandoning the fight when they had the capability and resources to resist the enemy. Firm and proper action would not only satisfy the nation's demand for punishment where it is deserved, but would also ensure against any future recurrence of the kind of shameful conduct displayed during the 1971 war.”


Sam Manekshaw was a fine Officer and a Gentleman. He commended the soldiers correctly.

Some of the members jumping up and down in blaming India, should read up on the Supplementary report. Any person with even slightest sense of dignity would keep his mouth shut after reading the report. It is believed that the main report that has vanished, had even more damning words for The Establishment and politicians.

 

[White privilege]

Well, the obvious is on display here. Whatever goes against the propaganda of absolute gentleman victory, is just unfathomable for bhakts. They have deliberately always tried to present Pakistani forces as incompetent and coward to add more bells and whistles to their victory garland. However any amount of detail, and this facade falls apart, and they get triggered....

 

[Goritoes]

People of DHA mafia payroll still try to hide the reality and fool awam, 71 was mismanagement and disaster thanks to combine efforts from corrupt Politicians and racists/Haram khor Army.

 

[Signalian]

@Signalian this was the stamp released by your very own Pakistan. Read the numbers carefully.

Everything changes post facto with Pakistan. Why? Gradual change of facts to twist and change the history.

For Paksiatn, 1965 was a win. There have been many attempts already to turn Kargil into a victory. Now it’s turn of 1971?

East Pakistan was part of Pakistan. Pakistan should have deployed adequate assets for its security. Why didn’t you? Because it wasn’t considered Pakistan enough? What a shameful fact.

Later on claiming “we lost because of inadequate forces” smells of refusing to face the facts.Your entire Army was intact or you could have done this or that has no meaning now. Your Lt Gen sat down and signed the surrender papers. Pakistan surrendered on that fateful day.

Now claiming in hindsight that you could have fought on and defeated the entire universe is immaterial.

View attachment 904979

I am listing the ORBAT below of Pakistan Army in East Pakistan:

1. 36 Infantry Division with 1 x Bde.
2. 14 Infantry Division with 3 x Bdes and IBG (mostly Rangers)
3. 39 Infantry Division with 3 x Bdes (2 of them were understrength)
4. 16 Infantry Division with 4 x Bdes ( 3 of them understrength)
5. 9th Infantry Division with 3 x Bdes ( 1 understrength Bde)

Now with a full compliment of strength, an infantry division is around 15000 troops, so for 90,000 troops, there have to be 6 x infantry divisions, while Pakistan had 5 x infantry Divisions which were under strength and except 14 Infantry Division, none had full complement of armor, artillery and even infantry. Further more, these brigades had police contingents to fill in numbers but still couldnt manage to bring full Divisions to strength.

It is stated by Indian media that Pakistan lost 5000-9000 troops in 1971 war, which meant that 93000 POWs + maybe 5000 KIA troops would be present in East Pakistan, totaling roughly 100,000 Pakistani troops against 200,000 Indian troops and 100,000 MBs.

1. So firstly, would 100,000 troops just put up their arms in front of 300,00 troops with in 2 weeks or would 40,000 troops do that ? 100,000 troops in front of 300,000 can resist for upto more than 2 months since 3:1 advantage takes time to diminish but 13:1 advantage tilts quickly in favour.

2. With 100,000 troops, an offensive can be planned against Indian forces from East Pakistan, and followed by a string of counter-attacks to decimate advancing Indian Army.

3. Revisit primary school and learn basic maths:
6 x 15000 = 90000
5 x 15000= 75000
But Pakistan Army had just one full strength Infantry Division (14th Infantry Division) so the figure of 75000 is not even possible.

Even if its said that Infantry Division should have 12000 troop strength at least, Pakistan Army still fell short of troops in 4 of its Infantry Divisions. Lets visit primary again:

Pakistan Army Infantry Division: 5 x 12000 = 60000 ( another inflated figure)

There is no way the figure of 90,000 can ever hold true. On top of that, 5000 troops were killed in East Pakistan ? and still 93000 surrendering surely shows 100,000 troop strength which means at least 6-7 fully sanctioned Infantry Divisions and such was never the case.

4. Pakistan Navy and PAF were a very small contingent compared to Army, their strengths were deplorable considered the tasks and assets assigned to them.

No wonder I deal with idiots everyday. Why do I even bother to reply.

Now, you can stick that stamp on your forehead. 'atta boy

 

[Signalian]

Also not to forget that Pakistan army had recruited 50,000 razakars (trained irregular soldiers) to assist them in the war.

93000 POW does not include Razakars. They were not accorded the same rights under Geneva convention for POW.

Who were the Razakars?

The Razakars were an auxiliary force of the Pakistan army during the 1971 Bangladesh War. Composed of mostly pro-Pakistani Bengalis and Biharis from Bangladesh (formerly East Pakistan), the approximate 50,000 Razakars assisted the army in raids against the local population and were accused of committing horrific atrocities.

View attachment 905014

Razakars were not more than 2 x Brigade strength.

During war, they were formed under 16th Infantry Division's brigade deployed near rajshahi and a brigade under 9th Infantry Division in Khulna.

The inflated figures of 100,000 Pakistan Troops (93000 POW, rest KIA) and 50,000 Razakars, totalling 150,000 meant that Indian Army and MB (200,000+100,000) gained just 2:1 superiority and East Pakistan collapsed within 2 weeks ? Take your crap back to BR or other indian forums.