Time to abandon Ummah / brotherhood for greater good of the nation?

[Armstrong]

So, it is afghan "jihad". The usual hypocrisy of fanatics. How about the "jihad" which pakistani taliban does by killing your people? How about the "jihad" by separatist movements of your country? How about the "jihad" of your political parties. So why don't you join these "jihads"?

Please do not show your hypocrisy by having one sided view. Analyse all sides and then come to conclusion. You are a very good example of someone influenced by what we call "Najdi imperialism",.

Did you even bother to read what I wrote ? I said that we aren't suffering because of those 15 Saudis but because of the Mujahideen we created in the Afghan Jihad ! Whats the hypocrisy in it when I'm saying that it was one foOked up decision ? But the ownership rests not only on Pakistan's shoulders but also that of the US, NATO and a whole host of other countries !

And there isn't any 'Jihadi' movement by separatists movements in Pakistan ! The Baloch are a secular people !

 

[somebozo]

And I do blame Pakistanis for it...but where does Nejadi Imperialism come into the picture ? And there is a hell of a difference between Deobandis of Pakistan and Wahabis of KSA ! Our equivalent of the Wahabism are the 'Ahle Sunnat' not the Deobandis so how the hell could the Saudis export their ideology to Pakistan when an overwhelming number of seminaries in Pakistan are of Deobandi origin and not Ahle-Sunnat !

Dude if you remember well, the plans were hatched by the same CIA and money poured in from the same treasury which is today financing weapons for Libya and want to arm the insurgency in Syria...and we were left powerless from exerting any controls over these Frankenstein because the money continued to pour from gulf non-stop so at one point even Taliban marginalized and ridiculed Pakistan.

 

[King Solomon]

Allah in the Qur’an describes what is unity in Islam as the Mu’minoon (Believers; those that believe in Allah and His Messenger Muhammad) being united in a Brotherhood based on solely Islam:

“The Mu’minoon are but a single Brotherhood.” (The Holy Qur’an, 49:10)

Allah further defines this Brotherhood by explaining that Muslims are awliyyaa’ (allies, friends, supporters) of one another, and this again is based solely on Islam:

“The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin the ma`roof (all of Islam), and forbid the munkar (all that is evil; kufr): they observe regular prayers, pay Zakat, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise.” (The Holy Qur’an, 9:71)

Muhammad (Salla Allahu `alaihi wa sallam) indicated in several Ahadith on unity and brotherhood as we can see in his (saaws) Farewell Sermon (khuTbat ul-wadaa`):

“All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood.”

Other Ahadith further elaborate on the concept of unity and brotherhood:

"A Muslim is the brother of another Muslim. He does not oppress him, nor does he leave him at the mercy of others." (Sahih Muslim Book 032, Number 6219)

The Prophet said, "None of you will have faith till he wishes for his (Muslim) brother what he likes for himself." (Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 12)

When he arrived then we can think about it. Prophet SAW has advised the muslims to stay away from dajjal and stay away from the areas he is known to be present. So just, that is exactly what we should do. Leave it on to them.

and then do you belive about Qabar and the questions that would be asked there???

Go read my, somebozo and other's very first posts in this topic and stop trolling like a parrot. Your points have already been refuted from Koranic evidences.

 

[somebozo]

Allah in the Qur’an describes what is unity in Islam as the Mu’minoon (Believers; those that believe in Allah and His Messenger Muhammad) being united in a Brotherhood based on solely Islam:

“The Mu’minoon are but a single Brotherhood.” (The Holy Qur’an, 49:10)

Allah further defines this Brotherhood by explaining that Muslims are awliyyaa’ (allies, friends, supporters) of one another, and this again is based solely on Islam:

“The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin the ma`roof (all of Islam), and forbid the munkar (all that is evil; kufr): they observe regular prayers, pay Zakat, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise.” (The Holy Qur’an, 9:71)

Muhammad (Salla Allahu `alaihi wa sallam) indicated in several Ahadith on unity and brotherhood as we can see in his (saaws) Farewell Sermon (khuTbat ul-wadaa`):

“All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood.”

Other Ahadith further elaborate on the concept of unity and brotherhood:

"A Muslim is the brother of another Muslim. He does not oppress him, nor does he leave him at the mercy of others." (Sahih Muslim Book 032, Number 6219)

The Prophet said, "None of you will have faith till he wishes for his (Muslim) brother what he likes for himself." (Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 12)

When he arrived then we can think about it. Prophet SAW has advised the muslims to stay away from dajjal and stay away from the areas he is known to be present. So just, that is exactly what we should do. Leave it on to them.

and then do you belive about Qabar and the questions that would be asked there???

Man please, take your lessons to those sitting in the middle east and once they have entertained you well as a royal guest of Al Sulayil detention center then we can discuss more about it.

Please, call your ummah brothers to at-least give a statement against drone strikes and help us fund the rehabilitation instead of madrases and then we can have further talk.

How come what is halal for them is forbidden fruit for us? That isn't brotherhood.

What we need in Pakistan is a strong rise of Nationalism and Facism which can reverse years of forgien influence and a leader who actually have balls to face the world stage instead of one who can be bought with aid.

 

[King Solomon]

Did you even bother to read what I wrote ? I said that we aren't suffering because of those 15 Saudis but because of the Mujahideen we created in the Afghan Jihad ! Whats the hypocrisy in it when I'm saying that it was one foOked up decision ? But the ownership rests not only on Pakistan's shoulders but also that of the US, NATO and a whole host of other countries !

And there isn't any 'Jihadi' movement by separatists movements in Pakistan ! The Baloch are a secular people !

When you call Afghan war a "jihad" it is already a hypocrisy as I have shown. And yes, Saudi is the main culprit because Afghanistan wouldn't have been in the state that it is today if Najdi imperialist ideology wouldn't have been exported from there. Pakistan was just a pawn and US was the strategist who put the pieces together.

 

[Armstrong]

Dude if you remember well, the plans were hatched by the same CIA and money poured in from the same treasury which is today financing weapons for Libya and want to arm the insurgency in Syria...

Libya got most of us fooled ! And I fear that we'd, possibly, be making the same mistakes in Syria though Pakistan actually supported either of the stances too...! So what is so unique about KSA's stance on Syria and was on Libya, that maybe labelled as it trying to export its 'extremist ideology' instead of simply playing the game that all nations play...those of 'interests' ! I fail to see whats the religious element to either Syria or Libya was when in the latter we had the Al Qaeeda who hates the KSA as much as they hate the United States and in case of the former, Turkey is a bigger advocate of an intervention in Syria then KSA ever can be...so I don't know where the 'religious connotation' is that brought us all the way from 15 Saudis to now Syria !

 

[somebozo]

When you call Afghan war a "jihad" it is already a hypocrisy as I have shown. And yes, Saudi is the main culprit because Afghanistan wouldn't have been in the state that it is today if Najdi imperialist ideology wouldn't have been exported from there. Pakistan was just a pawn and US was the strategist who put the pieces together.

In the post Afghan war era..in the early 90's Saudis were facing absolute bankruptcy due to Fahad failed policies, heavy burden of foreign loans and a force to reckon with permanently holed on their shores to make sure oil will never spike above $10 a barrel. This lead to the rise of Al Quaida and Islamic extremists.

Pakistan and US would have easily kept a tight lid on Talibans had it not been for easy GCC money flowing into Afghanistan which let the Talibans rebel even against Pakistan. The Arabis has their own reasons to do so - with rising bankruptcy at home many people were rising against the rule and Afghanistan came as just in right opportunity to export all that anger.

Even today Saudi citizens continue to make the largest human resource pool for Al-Quaida and Saudi Arabia has the highest number of clerics detained due to connection or support with Al Quaida.

Libya got most of us fooled ! And I fear that we'd, possibly, be making the same mistakes in Syria though Pakistan actually supported either of the stances too...! So what is so unique about KSA's stance on Syria and was on Libya, that maybe labelled as it trying to export its 'extremist ideology' instead of simply playing the game that all nations play...those of 'interests' ! I fail to see whats the religious element to either Syria or Libya was when in the latter we had the Al Qaeeda who hates the KSA as much as they hate the United States and in case of the former, Turkey is a bigger advocate of an intervention in Syria then KSA ever can be...so I don't know where the 'religious connotation' is that brought us all the way from 15 Saudis to now Syria !

I never mentioned saudi arabia - I was collectively talking about entire GCC.

If there is no appeal to extremism aka Najdism in Saudi, then why do such articles only emerge from there:

here is an old article as a mind freshener.

Saudi Effort Draws on Radical Clerics to Combat Lure of Al-Qaeda

Saudi king sacks cleric who attacked social reform | Reuters

Saudi Gazette -

Looks like this mullah has never had a taste of modern civilization or may he doesnt know there are countries where exist sizable minorities of non-Muslims. How would he validate and imply his statement on India - which happens to be a muslim minority state? or United States which is the forerunner of secularism?? Are these people scholars or street mullahs with friends at the right places?

In the era of 21 century - who on earth possesses such backward and primitive thinking?

 

[Armstrong]

When you call Afghan war a "jihad" it is already a hypocrisy as I have shown. And yes, Saudi is the main culprit because Afghanistan wouldn't have been in the state that it is today if Najdi imperialist ideology wouldn't have been exported from there. Pakistan was just a pawn and US was the strategist who put the pieces together.

The term used to describe what happened in Afghanistan is usually 'the Afghan Jihad'...now if I were advocating for it as a 'Jihad' I wouldn't be calling it a 'foOked up decision' in the very next line would I ?

And no I still don't understand how KSA was the culprit when the two organizations that brought Afghanistan to the state they're in - namely AQ and the Taliban - have as much in common with KSA as they do with China ! AQ hates the KSA regime very much and they follow a version of Islam (the Takfiri kind...the individual Jihad kind) espoused by Syed Qutb the founding member of the Muslim Brotherhood not the Government regulated Islam that they teach in KSA ! So are you suggesting that the Saudis were supporting an organization that not only ridicules their ideology but also is openly hostile to their monarchy and policies ? The other organization are the Taliban who are a predominantly Deobandi movement whose funding was sought from everything from individual donations and american aid to KSA's petrodollars to growing poppy ! So how the heck do I call the 'Saudis' the main culprit when they 1) don't even prescribe to the same ideology and 2) provided indirect financial support to US operations in Afghanistan !

 

[Juice]

Over 8,000 post and SomeBozo isn't even think-tank? Perhaps he fails to toe the party line?

 

[somebozo]

The term used to describe what happened in Afghanistan is usually 'the Afghan Jihad'...now if I were advocating for it as a 'Jihad' I wouldn't be calling it a 'foOked up decision' in the very next line would I ?

And no I still don't understand how KSA was the culprit when the two organizations that brought Afghanistan to the state they're in - namely AQ and the Taliban - have as much in common with KSA as they do with China ! AQ hates the KSA regime very much and they follow a version of Islam (the Takfiri kind...the individual Jihad kind) espoused by Syed Qutb the founding member of the Muslim Brotherhood not the Government regulated Islam that they teach in KSA ! So are you suggesting that the Saudis were supporting an organization that not only ridicules their ideology but also is openly hostile to their monarchy and policies ? The other organization are the Taliban who are a predominantly Deobandi movement whose funding was sought from everything from individual donations and american aid to KSA's petrodollars to growing poppy ! So how the heck do I call the 'Saudis' the main culprit when they 1) don't even prescribe to the same ideology and 2) provided indirect financial support to US operations in Afghanistan !

Dude nobody said the KSA was officially preaching it. The KSA offical preaching has always been "all hail the king" version. But there are numerous power factions inside the clergy - some extremist as well and the best way to keep them quiet has been to throw money at the problem. Instead of proper reforms. Seriously, being an extremist anti-state cleric was the fastest ticket to get rich during Fahad era. But then much of that money made its way into Afghanistan and the problems as we know today. This is why one has to wonder with all the oil wealth and booming malls KSA has remained on of the most backward country in culture and social structure.

how would you justify such backward-ism - which is authentic culture of Najd?

The Saudi woman who wants a divorce - because her husband tried to sneak one look at her face after 30 years of marriage | Mail Online

When this backward-ism and religious clerics merge you have a dangerous mix called Najdi imperialism. Clerics who want to demolish all culture, heritage and civilization in the name of Islam and take everyone back to stone age. The Najdis despise all forms of culture, civilization, technology or modern sciences and insist to live in their primitive means they have been following for thousands of years...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Mecca_girls'_school_fire

 

[SQ8]

Over 8,000 post and SomeBozo isn't even think-tank? Perhaps he fails to toe the party line?

Think-tank is not a post-quantity based system..
its a post-quality based system..
We look at overall post quality and the ratio of those posts.
You should look at the posts count of many of the TT's which is nothing compared to many members here..
but the quality of those posts speaks for itself.. that is the criteria.

 

[Armstrong]

I never mentioned saudi arabia - I was collectively talking about entire GCC.

here is an old article as a mind freshener.

Saudi Effort Draws on Radical Clerics to Combat Lure of Al-Qaeda

Then where the heck is 'Nejad' ? And the GCC wasn't, to the best of my knowledge, nearly as significantly involved in any of this...if anything the petro-dollars came from Saudi Arabia (and to a very lesser extent...perhaps the UAE) and that too at the behest of the Americans as part of the Cold War !

And the article that you posted is a refreshing read indeed; if anything the Saudis should be applauded for combating Radicalism on their on shores with the vociferous use of the State's clergy to try to bring those brain-washed youth back into the society !

Dude nobody said the KSA was officially preaching it. The KSA offical preaching has always been "all hail the king" version. But there are numerous power factions inside the clergy - some extremist as well and the best way to keep them quiet has been to throw money at the problem. Seriously, being an extremist anti-state cleric was the fastest ticket to get rich during Fahad era. But then much of that money made its way into Afghanistan and the problems as we know today.

I would seriously doubt that because from what I've heard the Saudi clergy is intrinsically linked with the monarchy and one draws strength and legitimacy from the other ! One of the reasons, I read, as to why there wasn't such an uprising in KSA was because the clergy, that could have fostered it, were on the King's side !

Much of that money may have made itself into Afghanistan when we went for that ill-fated, ill-conceived Afghan Jihad but I fail to understand how we can castigate KSA when barring the money they provided neither the ideology (our local Deobandis did), nor the manpower (Pakistanis and Afghans) and nor the intelligence (ISI and CIA did)...! Yes the Afghan Jihad was, in hindsight, most probably a very, very bad decision but I think that if we're going to dish out blame - Pakistan and the USA were far..far more culpable then KSA ever could be !

 

[somebozo]

I would seriously doubt that because from what I've heard the Saudi clergy is intrinsically linked with the monarchy and one draws strength and legitimacy from the other ! One of the reasons, I read, as to why there wasn't such an uprising in KSA was because the clergy, that could have fostered it, were on the King's side !

there is a big difference between what you have heard and what has happens on ground. I cannot unhear the sermons and speeches of equating infidels with dogs or pigs and calling for their complete annihilation in the name of Islam. During the Fahad time, KSA was one of the most anti-american country. There is a reason for that as well.


The clergy which would have fostered it was on the Kings side. The opposing faction was sent on global holy war.

if anything the Saudis should be applauded for combating Radicalism on their on shores with the vociferous use of the State's clergy to try to bring those brain-washed youth back into the society !

Yes but why did such radicalization happen in the first place??? Perhaps weakness of state or weakness of clergy???
The state was overwhelmingly scared of modern sciences and education to they put everyone on fast track religious education which pulled the same ummah mentality strings and shifted focus on global affairs in better cause of ummah - the leading result is Islamist terrorist movements. Has it not been for the clergy influence - dont you think OBL would be handed a death sentence instead of being exiled?

Much of that money may have made itself into Afghanistan when we went for that ill-fated, ill-conceived Afghan Jihad but I fail to understand how we can castigate KSA when barring the money they provided neither the ideology (our local Deobandis did), nor the manpower (Pakistanis and Afghans) and nor the intelligence (ISI and CIA did)...! Yes the Afghan Jihad was, in hindsight, most probably a very, very bad decision but I think that if we're going to dish out blame - Pakistan and the USA were far..far more culpable then KSA ever could be !

i am not holding Saudis as the prime responsible but there is no denying their their own deprivation, backward ness and lack of vision provided the fodder and boat loads of cash for Afghanistan to spiral out of control. Find Saudis who had their kids killed or injured in Afghanistan during the training of great jihad isn't all that difficult today.

Today Islamist look to enforce tribal dessert culture of Najd as a leading example of Islamic civilization. There is a reason why and where this influence came from. And much of it is connected to money!

 

[Armstrong]

The clergy which would have fostered it was on the Kings side. The opposing faction was sent on global holy war.

Any source for that latter part of it ?

Yes but why did such radicalization happen in the first place??? Perhaps weakness of state or weakness of clergy???
The state was overwhelmingly scared of modern sciences and education to they put everyone on fast track religious education which pulled the same ummah mentality strings and shifted focus on global affairs in better cause of ummah - the leading result is Islamist terrorist movements. Has it not been for the clergy influence - dont you think OBL would be handed a death sentence instead of being exiled?

Weakness or rather ignorance of the State may well be the reason which allowed a portion of their people be influenced by others ! Coincidentally this dilemma isn't peculiar to KSA but is well present in Pakistan, India, BD and even countries like Britain or the Scandinavian states ! Its all nice to be wise after the event but the fact is that no one was expecting OBL and the Al Qaeeda to do what they did and become what they are...not even the American's themselves ! So complacency or even a slight complicity (and I'm assuming that the Saudis funded someone and what not) doesn't equal the assertion that 'they're trying to export Nejadi Imperialism to the rest of the world' and that, that export is what is responsible for all of this especially when they don't even have a significant hold on our clergy (the Deobandis vastly out-number both the Ahle Sunnat and the Ahle Tashi).

i am not holding Saudis as the prime responsible but there is no denying their their own deprivation, backward ness and lack of vision provided the fodder and boat loads of cash for Afghanistan to spiral out of control. Find Saudis who had their kids killed or injured in Afghanistan during the training of great jihad isn't all that difficult today.

You're friend above called them 'the main culprit' and for the past many days I've heard the assertion that we (in Pakistan and the rest of the Muslim world) are foOked because of 'Nejadi Imperialism' so mate...if that isn't attributing prime responsibility then I dunno what is ! The fodder were Pakistanis and Afghans...the dollars were their but the execution and the planning was ISI and CIAs...I think American and Pakistani Imperialism should come way ahead of any amount of 'Nejadi Imperialism'

Today Islamist look to enforce tribal dessert culture of Najd as a leading example of Islamic civilization. There is a reason why and where this influence came from. And much of it is connected to money!

Again we're going in circles..! The Islamists of KSA are very different from the Islamist of Afghanistan and Pakistan ! Those in KSA interpret the Quran pretty rigidly and have, consequently, come up things that seem ludicrous at times but the Islamists of Afghanistan and Pakistan are some devilish mixture of militancy and deobandism and they are very different from the Islamist of the Muslim Brotherhood or those of Saudi Arabia...heck many of them have actually called the KSA as an American-Zionist stooge so I doubt if they'd be looking up to a stooge !

 

[somebozo]

Again we're going in circles..! The Islamists of KSA are very different from the Islamist of Afghanistan and Pakistan ! Those in KSA interpret the Quran pretty rigidly and have, consequently, come up things that seem ludicrous at times but the Islamists of Afghanistan and Pakistan are some devilish mixture of militancy and deobandism and they are very different from the Islamist of the Muslim Brotherhood or those of Saudi Arabia...heck many of them have actually called the KSA as an American-Zionist stooge so I doubt if they'd be looking up to a stooge !

Very thoughtful post..they both represent the two sides of an extremist coin. Just like how Afghanistan is divided among different power factions today. These people have been brainwashed with hate so they only know how to pick differences and fight. The deobandis aren't any better or less backward either.

that does not spare the najdi mullahs who continue to export backwardness in the name of islam..ever seen some people who spend a few years in gulf then return with higher than usual shalwars, beard and rigid stance against all forms of science and technology?

The deobandis were formed for the same purpose - provide legitimacy to Nizam rule. And the Najdi clerics serve the same purpose. Throughout history, Mullahs have been the pimp of nations in the name of ummah!