T-50's Canopy

[gambit]

I don't think J-20 is a copy, check this video, it seems to be an improvement over F-22 frame.

An improvement? May be the US is stupid because if we are to go by model airplanes...

Check out the maneuvers at timestamp 2 min.

You are too gullible and am saying that nicely.

There are three things that we cannot scale: water, fire, and vapor. For vapor, it includes smoke, fog, and any other light particulates and aerosol. By scaling I mean we cannot reduce the substance in size. If you look at very old sci-fi movies, even as recent as 10 yrs ago, you will often see fire and smoke that are out of scale compare to the model house or monster. Same with water. Supposedly a ship is moving but the wake in front seems larger that what a real ship would produce. If a model ship is 1/5th of the real ship, the water should be 1/5th in scale as well, but that is not possible.

Here is an example...

modelshipsinthecinema.com | The technique of Model Ship miniature Effects

Look very carefully at the ships and the water. The water structures are just simply too large compared to the ship that is supposedly tens of meters in length and beam.

What this mean is that you cannot take scaled models of real aircrafts as indicative of true performance of the real aircrafts. We cannot scale down the air molecules, the same ones that the real 747 uses, for our 1/5 or /10th scaled down 747. Because of this, aerodynamics on a scaled model will have different effects than on real aircrafts and model aircrafts will ALWAYS have superior maneuverability than their real counterparts.

The scale model J-20 have been tossed around by the Chinese as how the real J-20 is more maneuverable than the real F-22, but real aerodynamicists and avionics specialists (like me) ended up laughing at these examples of 'Chinese physics'.

 

[TLCBonaparte]

An improvement? May be the US is stupid because if we are to go by model airplanes...

Check out the maneuvers at timestamp 2 min.

You are too gullible and am saying that nicely.

There are three things that we cannot scale: water, fire, and vapor. For vapor, it includes smoke, fog, and any other light particulates and aerosol. By scaling I mean we cannot reduce the substance in size. If you look at very old sci-fi movies, even as recent as 10 yrs ago, you will often see fire and smoke that are out of scale compare to the model house or monster. Same with water. Supposedly a ship is moving but the wake in front seems larger that what a real ship would produce. If a model ship is 1/5th of the real ship, the water should be 1/5th in scale as well, but that is not possible.

Here is an example...

modelshipsinthecinema.com | The technique of Model Ship miniature Effects

Look very carefully at the ships and the water. The water structures are just simply too large compared to the ship that is supposedly tens of meters in length and beam.

What this mean is that you cannot take scaled models of real aircrafts as indicative of true performance of the real aircrafts. We cannot scale down the air molecules, the same ones that the real 747 uses, for our 1/5 or /10th scaled down 747. Because of this, aerodynamics on a scaled model will have different effects than on real aircrafts and model aircrafts will ALWAYS have superior maneuverability than their real counterparts.

The scale model J-20 have been tossed around by the Chinese as how the real J-20 is more maneuverable than the real F-22, but real aerodynamicists and avionics specialists (like me) ended up laughing at these examples of 'Chinese physics'.

No offense but models are never meant to perfectly replicate real capabilities of a fighter to begin with. I certainly don't treat it as such, this is a really long winded explanation for something obvious.

Models are meant to emulate a simplified version of the real thing and allow people to examine some of the bare bone stuffs more clearly, and this model works fine in that capacity, it shows off the air frame's ability to do high alpha hence it's subsonic maneuverability, and since we are talking about chinese plane's design compare to US fighter, this is just fine to show the differences in design.

 

[Luftwaffe]

It is hard enough to make non-stealth aircraft and that is why the world is not awash in "stealth" fighters.

Only 5 countries in the world can design and produce complete 4th generation fighters - US, Russia, China, France and the UK.

China seems to have basically copied the F-22 and F-35 shapes in the J-20/J-31 thanks to the US.

V-2 was also copied and it was ditto. I don't see J-20 to be remotely like F-22 nor is J-31 remotely near F-35 just because they have similarities don't mean they are copied not remotely. Lastly you don't have to reinvent the wheel, ofcourse you can modernize it.

There is no proof of Chinese getting the technology or hacking it if that was the case China would have gotten the old B-1 Lancer's blueprints and developed something better than H-6[variants], it is all baseless that Chinese copied specific aircrafts, you may use the term inspired.

I have spoke about it many times

Seems like you are getting aggressive, this Forum is to help and give information, the member who asked the question is a new member, you should have pointed him to the correct Thread where you posted you version of explanation, instead of foolishly posting picture.

Edit you post and address OP so he may get his Answer.

 

[UKBengali]

V-2 was also copied and it was ditto. I don't see J-20 to be remotely like F-22 nor is J-31 remotely near F-35 just because they have similarities don't mean they are copied not remotely. Lastly you don't have to reinvent the wheel, ofcourse you can modernize it.

There is no proof of Chinese getting the technology or hacking it if that was the case China would have gotten the old B-1 Lancer's blueprints and developed something better than H-6[variants], it is all baseless that Chinese copied specific aircrafts, you may use the term inspired.

Maybe I should have used the term "inspired from" rather than "copy".

Now that it has been admitted that stealth is mainly shaping, then the US has given the game away by showing it's stealth designs to the rest of the world.

I read somewhere that around 80% of stealth is shaping.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Maybe I should have used the term "inspired from" rather than "copy".

Now that it has been admitted that stealth is mainly shaping, then the US has given the game away by showing it's stealth designs to the rest of the world.

I read somewhere that around 80% of stealth is shaping.

Yeah well it had to come out in the sky one day. The US is miles ahead because the precision technology the equipment and machines are state of the art compared to other countries including europe but China has considerable invested in buying out through means machinery and equipment along with their in home development to deploy for manufacture spares, systems etc with precision.

 

[gambit]

No offense but models are never meant to perfectly replicate real capabilities of a fighter to begin with. I certainly don't treat it as such, this is a really long winded explanation for something obvious.

If it was that 'obvious' you would not have said that the J-20 seems to be an improvement over the F-22.

 

[UKBengali]

Yeah well it had to come out in the sky one day. The US is miles ahead because the precision technology the equipment and machines are state of the art compared to other countries including europe but China has considerable invested in buying out through means machinery and equipment along with their in home development to deploy for manufacture spares, systems etc with precision.

China-made advanced machine tool exported to Germany - SCI_TECH - Globaltimes.cn

China is exporting machine tools to the US and Germany now.


U.S. Precision Machine Tool Industry Is No Longer A Global Competetitive Force

" There are six American companies dedicated to producing five-axis machine tools, and at least 20 in China. Five-axis tools are used for the production of precision components in the aerospace industry"


China seems to have caught up in the area of machine tools and that is why they seem to be able to make stealth fighters that look on the same level as the US.

 

[ptldM3]

China-made advanced machine tool exported to Germany - SCI_TECH - Globaltimes.cn

China is exporting machine tools to the US and Germany now.


U.S. Precision Machine Tool Industry Is No Longer A Global Competetitive Force

" There are six American companies dedicated to producing five-axis machine tools, and at least 20 in China. Five-axis tools are used for the production of precision components in the aerospace industry"


China seems to have caught up in the area of machine tools and that is why they seem to be able to make stealth fighters that look on the same level as the US.

This is ridiculous argument (which you are famous for) claiming that China has equivalent machine tools based on the fact that they export them to the US and Germany is a sign of intellectual stupidity. A determing factor in sales is price; just because some companies are on a budget and can't afford US or German alternatives doesn't make the Chinese product equivalent or better. Just like a haunadai is not better then a BMW or a Mercedes based soley on sales.

 

[UKBengali]

This is ridiculous argument (which you are famous for) claiming that China has equivalent machine tools based on the fact that they export them to the US and Germany is a sign of intellectual stupidity. A determing factor in sales is price; just because some companies are on a budget and can't afford US or German alternatives doesn't make the Chinese product equivalent or better. Just like a haunadai is not better then a BMW or a Mercedes based soley on sales.

If you had bothered to read the article then you would not have shot your mouth off

"U.S. producers of some of the most technologically advanced machine tools are in trouble, according to an assessment by the Department of Commerce. Sales of high-precision five-axis machine tools are declining. U.S. share of global exports is in a freefall. Foreign companies in China and Taiwan have caught up with U.S. technical capabilities, rendering stringent U.S. export controls moot"

U.S. Precision Machine Tool Industry Is No Longer A Global Competetitive Force

This explains why only China can produce fighters that actually look like US stealth aircraft. It is not just having a design but of having the capability to manufacture it as well.

 

[MilSpec]

Which means that US dominance in stealth cannot be that much more than others.

All countries know what shape US stealth aircraft are and can just copy the basic shape.

Only if non-linear structural design worked that way, cambodia would be flying f22's wont they...

If you had bothered to read the article then you would not have shot your mouth off

"U.S. producers of some of the most technologically advanced machine tools are in trouble, according to an assessment by the Department of Commerce. Sales of high-precision five-axis machine tools are declining. U.S. share of global exports is in a freefall. Foreign companies in China and Taiwan have caught up with U.S. technical capabilities, rendering stringent U.S. export controls moot"

U.S. Precision Machine Tool Industry Is No Longer A Global Competetitive Force

This explains why only China can produce fighters that actually look like US stealth aircraft. It is not just having a design but of having the capability to manufacture it as well.

and thus developing nations should look at china as a source of high tech weaponry.... i hope that happens

 

[UKBengali]

Only if non-linear structural design worked that way, cambodia would be flying f22's wont they...

You are smart enough to know that shaping is not the only problem when it comes to designing a 5th generation fighter.

A country needs to have the ability to make the avionics, manufacture the airframe and also design a good enough engine.

The only countries currently with this type of capability are the US, Russia(not too sure about the airframe though), China(not 100% sure on the engine), UK and France.

Nearly forgot the mention that you also need at least 10 billion dollars for development cost.

 

[MilSpec]

You are smart enough to know that shaping is not the only problem when it comes to designing a 5th generation fighter.

A country needs to have the ability to make the avionics, manufacture the airframe and also design a good enough engine.

The only countries currently with this type of capability are the US, Russia(not too sure about the airframe though), China(not 100% sure on the engine), UK and France.

Nearly forgot the mention that you also need at least 10 billion dollars for development cost.

thanks, i thought all you needed for 5 gen a/c's was 5 axis VMC, and a copy of jane's weekly...

 

[airmarshal]

You are dreaming. Read this...

Fundamentals of Stealth Design & Concepts of RCS Reduction | Page 2

If it was that easy to shape to match even the F-117, the world would be awash in 'stealth' fighters by now. But why not?

Totally agree Its not as simple as it looks.

 

[sms]

Hi, I am new and don't know much about Aviation, I am just curious about something, hopefully this doesn't sound foolish.

I am curious about T-50's Canopy, as it has metal frame, how come it is a stealth plane? Won't the frame ruin detection?

No explanation needed.

Just for you info most of the canopies are cover with a thin metallic layers to make them reflective. This done to avoid radar signals going directly in to cockpit, reflected back to source and put a big red dot on receiver's screen.

So in short the canopies these days a equivalent (layman's term) to a canopy made of metal (reflective). In short the metallic canopy doesn't necessarily posses more risk than un-coated glass canopy.

 

[TLCBonaparte]

If it was that 'obvious' you would not have said that the J-20 seems to be an improvement over the F-22.

I meant the shaping and airframe. And I felt "Model is not a accurate representation for the actual fighter" is something so obvious it doesn't need to be stated.