Should PAF be looking at EJ200 for Thunder

[Sinnerman108]

Hi,

You kids are totally living in ether. You talk about super cruise like you are buying some 'gajak' at phajay di hutee'.

You people need to do a lot more research---you need to understand the politcal ramification---you think america is just going to let you have super cruise capability now or in the next twenty years.

You people think that a little plane like the JF 17 can handle the stresses of supercruise----.

Suddenly why this fetish with super cruise.

Next---you already have china developing two engine for your prime aircraft---the JF 17 and the J10B----and you want to start a JV with someone else.

Do you really really think that china would allow you to invest with someone else.

Has common sense left you people's residence---what are you doing now---instead of using your brains---you are thinking with your feet.

Jumping from one house to the next house---from china to romania, poland, belarus, ukraine---in one go---where ukraine has hardly any money to develop anything major---and the other three---two in the american house---the third has no direction.

Some times I wonder if any of us will give up ...

MK:
I agree with the points you made about the political ramifications they are valid.

However try to understand that I never proposed a JV with those countries; not to upset the political status.

I am however proposing partnership on the intellectual capital level.
We are short of knowledge and experience,
either we can invest 20 years in these sciences and still not get any where
OR
we can think of ways to forging cooperation with the above suggested countries to gain some intellectual capital.

Does that sound far fetched ?

 

[Sinnerman108]

Well what do you know !

interesting surprise ; they are already doing it.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/696021-post1.html

and the full thread is at http://www.defence.pk/forums/general-defence/48674-azerbaijani-defense-industry-pakistan.html

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

This discussion was sregarding the fighter jet engines and super cruise---other than that this news is nothing new---pak has had ventures with ukraine for many a years---problem with ukraine is that it is cash strapped---that is why pak had to get the cn235 I believe rather than the ilyushin---when pak had the money they wehnt back to ukraine---next thing---the govt in ukraine may shift from favouring west to going back with the russians---same thing wit belarus.

Pak signs these MOU with everyone---some bear fruit---others are their for the sake of it.

The money spent for an engine can be better spent on creating better engineering facilities for students.

If the pak millitary spend a 100 millions in an engineering univ---it will give out better dividends in the long run if jusst spent on an engine.

 

[SBD-3]

Hi,

This discussion was sregarding the fighter jet engines and super cruise---other than that this news is nothing new---pak has had ventures with ukraine for many a years---problem with ukraine is that it is cash strapped---that is why pak had to get the cn235 I believe rather than the ilyushin---when pak had the money they wehnt back to ukraine---next thing---the govt in ukraine may shift from favouring west to going back with the russians---same thing wit belarus.

Pak signs these MOU with everyone---some bear fruit---others are their for the sake of it.

The money spent for an engine can be better spent on creating better engineering facilities for students.

If the pak millitary spend a 100 millions in an engineering univ---it will give out better dividends in the long run if jusst spent on an engine.

yes indeed thats what i believe, capacity building. I always advocated this idea that Millitary should allocate some of its budjet for general capcity building. Not necessarily building brand new univesties but upgrading the infrastructure of science and technology (not only millitary but also civilian as most of the millitary technologies stem from civilian technologies). we need eaqully more good scientists as engneers because scientists are actually at the forefront of research. However, a brighter tommorow asks for a sacrifice today

 

[sancho]

o bhai......engine is not a missile or an aircraft which PAF should reject given India Uses it....PAF is more interested in Snecma M88 because
1- The company has good repute and history in engine technologies where as Euro Jet is a relatively new born baby in the business

That's wrong because you are only thinking about Eurojet the company, but not which members it has. Members like british Rolls Royce, or German MTU which are very experienced and especially the british have a higher reputation than Snecma

Also the M88-2 has less thrust than the actual RD 93 and the M88-3 needs several hundred millions of funding and at least 3 years of development till it would be ready for any fighter. So the chances of M88 for JFT are pretty low I would say, especially if India will go for the Kaveri-Snecma development.

Regarding the topic, the point is not if PAF can have the EJ 200 engine for JFT, but what advantages Eurojet and the EF partners would have in PAF gets it?
They are offering the engine to India not only because they hope to sell a few hundreds of them and to reduce the production costs, but also to have better chances in MMRCA and because they hope India will fund further developments like the 3D TVC technology.
PAF / Pakistan can't offer most of these advantages, which makes such a deal also not really likely.

 

[MastanKhan]

yes indeed thats what i believe, capacity building. I always advocated this idea that Millitary should allocate some of its budjet for general capcity building. Not necessarily building brand new univesties but upgrading the infrastructure of science and technology (not only millitary but also civilian as most of the millitary technologies stem from civilian technologies). we need eaqully more good scientists as engneers because scientists are actually at the forefront of research. However, a brighter tommorow asks for a sacrifice today

Hi,

Thanks for your comments. Fighter jet engine building from scratch is like a 25 to 50 year project.

The nations who are not into building the engine as of yet---even though they have the capabilities have decided that the enormity of the project is so massive and the chances of failure so high even after spending a billion dollars---that it is better to ride piggy back with ones who are already producing it.

See---the thing is---it is not a matter of ego---it is a matter of understanding the obstacle---.

Pakistan had a great oppurtunity in the early part of this century---our education dept was advertising all over the world of educationlists to come and work in pakistan---phd's were welcome with open arms with good benefits.

But it was due to our dumb acts that we screwed ourselves bad---

This game that the pak millitary played with the nation about the al qaeda and taliban, not taking charge of the local insurgency at fata in time has ruined the future of our nation.

Pakistan is like a snake that has swallowed its own tail and now is wondering why the matter is stuck in its throat.

We just had to kill OBL and his cohorts at our side of tora bora and culled this insurgency----but all you guys were talking about the islamic brotherhood and going for jihad in afghanistan---.

We all had a good thing going---but just because we had no clue what the good thing was---we killed the goose and ate it for dinner.

 

[T-Rex]

A few days ago I read a thread stating that a JF-17 fitted with the WS-13 has been tested for the first time. I cannot find that thread now, does anyone have any idea where the thread is?

 

[EagleEyes]

A few days ago I read a thread stating that a JF-17 fitted with the WS-13 has been tested for the first time. I cannot find that thread now, does anyone have any idea where the thread is?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/jf-17-...carries-out-successful-ws-13-flight-test.html

Its on the same page as this thread.

 

[Donatello]

Hi,

Thanks for your comments. Fighter jet engine building from scratch is like a 25 to 50 year project.

The nations who are not into building the engine as of yet---even though they have the capabilities have decided that the enormity of the project is so massive and the chances of failure so high even after spending a billion dollars---that it is better to ride piggy back with ones who are already producing it.

See---the thing is---it is not a matter of ego---it is a matter of understanding the obstacle---.

Pakistan had a great oppurtunity in the early part of this century---our education dept was advertising all over the world of educationlists to come and work in pakistan---phd's were welcome with open arms with good benefits.

But it was due to our dumb acts that we screwed ourselves bad---

This game that the pak millitary played with the nation about the al qaeda and taliban, not taking charge of the local insurgency at fata in time has ruined the future of our nation.

Pakistan is like a snake that has swallowed its own tail and now is wondering why the matter is stuck in its throat.

We just had to kill OBL and his cohorts at our side of tora bora and culled this insurgency----but all you guys were talking about the islamic brotherhood and going for jihad in afghanistan---.

We all had a good thing going---but just because we had no clue what the good thing was---we killed the goose and ate it for dinner.

You can't just kill OBL and expect his cronies to fall apart. Do you even know who OBL really was? what his alias was? The US hasn't been able to find him. We screwed up when we took American policy of jihad to drive the soviets out.

They then places more terrorists outfits in our backyards. Basically we did cultivate useful ones but we didn't know how to dump them.

But in anycase, it is us who can make it come back.

 

[MastanKhan]

You can't just kill OBL and expect his cronies to fall apart. Do you even know who OBL really was? what his alias was? The US hasn't been able to find him. We screwed up when we took American policy of jihad to drive the soviets out.

They then places more terrorists outfits in our backyards. Basically we did cultivate useful ones but we didn't know how to dump them.

But in anycase, it is us who can make it come back.

Hi,

The first 30 to 60 days were the most crucial after their escape from afg---that was the time if he was wiped out alongwith all his troops and any pakistani going across the border to fight jihad declared enemy of the stae ( pakistan ) and summarily executed for treason.

U S has not found him due to other reasons---.

You are mistaken about the american policy of jihad and driving russians out of afg---.

My good kid----it was not the americans entrapping us----it was us pakistanis who trapped america in afg---america didnot want to get involved---all the intelligence analysis led them to believe that the russian ingress would only stay local and won't change the balance of power.

We played the trick on america and made them believe what was not true.
That is one of the reasons the americans left when they did.

 

[Koga Ryu]

Hi,

The first 30 to 60 days were the most crucial after their escape from afg---that was the time if he was wiped out alongwith all his troops and any pakistani going across the border to fight jihad declared enemy of the stae ( pakistan ) and summarily executed for treason.

U S has not found him due to other reasons---.

You are mistaken about the american policy of jihad and driving russians out of afg---.

My good kid----it was not the americans entrapping us----it was us pakistanis who trapped america in afg---america didnot want to get involved---all the intelligence analysis led them to believe that the russian ingress would only stay local and won't change the balance of power.

We played the trick on america and made them believe what was not true.
That is one of the reasons the americans left when they did.

------------------------------
Mr Mk stick to the topic.
since GE won the contract. now Pakistan can request for EJ200 for Thunder.

 

[SQ8]

------------------------------
Mr Mk stick to the topic.
since GE won the contract. now Pakistan can request for EJ200 for Thunder.

Ah.. forget the Ej-200... Get the F-135.. brand spanking new.. best one on the market..

Uh.. you should start using these in your posts more often..
Im thinking of putting one in every one of my posts from now on.. one at the top.. one at the bottom.

Do international relations.. defense procurement procedures..and just the idea of buying something new from somewhere mean squat to many here??

Its like shifting from a house you just bought.. and you are happy with.. you did all the packing.. all the painting..set the furniture, the crockery, the electronics..etc etc.
Then when you are done and you feel at home.. along comes Mr xyz saying.. why'd you shift here??.. why didn't you go to the place which is only slightly bigger.. but you have to pay more rent, the maintenance is slightly less but you can only call so so pvt ltd to send you replacements for the fixtures.. and on top of that the landlord is unreliable and may kick you out if you play the stereo too loud..

 

[Koga Ryu]

Ah.. forget the Ej-200... Get the F-135.. brand spanking new.. best one on the market..

Uh.. you should start using these in your posts more often..
Im thinking of putting one in every one of my posts from now on.. one at the top.. one at the bottom.

Do international relations.. defense procurement procedures..and just the idea of buying something new from somewhere mean squat to many here??

Its like shifting from a house you just bought.. and you are happy with.. you did all the packing.. all the painting..set the furniture, the crockery, the electronics..etc etc.
Then when you are done and you feel at home.. along comes Mr xyz saying.. why'd you shift here??.. why didn't you go to the place which is only slightly bigger.. but you have to pay more rent, the maintenance is slightly less but you can only call so so pvt ltd to send you replacements for the fixtures.. and on top of that the landlord is unreliable and may kick you out if you play the stereo too loud..

------------
I meant say US major GE wins $600 mn engine bid for Indian Light Combat Aircrafts - The Economic Times.
Pakistan should try with European their luck they need bushiness this will be the best choice.

 

[muse]

Amazing thread -- From WS13 to EJ200 to F414, to F135

 

[measif]

hi guyz i m new on this forum, i think paf should focus on aesa and try their best to get that french onhold deal, i think paf is waiting for indian mmrca to finalize ,most probably they will go for a us fighter they already placed order to russia ,uk for trainers and france for mirage2k upgrades , what ever they say they will be pushed 2wards F/A-18 most probably and they are trying to improve their foriegn relations with us.
once deal is finalized we can upgrade jf17s, f16s nd get 3 dozens of rafales and j-10 bs but we cant do it now cuz india is keep giving hopes to most of the contenders just to keep paf off the track.
Asif