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Lesson for PAF TT/Decision makers

ohhh common just few months ago f-16s and AIM-120 saved our pride .

Having an indigenous or a “not so common (less Air Forces use it that is)” combined with the secrecy of Included tech gives you an upper hand (Thunders for PAF), No one knows much about the Fighter, atleast the critical details of mission profiles.

So this is a psychological victory or sort of an upper hand over enemy, Keeps them guessing.

IAF has been lucky since some years, They finalized Rafale, Then they now finalized Tejas.

We can talk all crap we can about LCA but I am pretty optimistic, The present plans of IAF with regards to MK1A and MK2 pose a serious threat to PAF, A really serious one, One that will leave our usual brag of Block 3 insignificant.

Plus, We are stuck with the stupid notion of Light fighter, Medium sized fighters are the power horses, Their range and Weapons capacity with enough size to accommodate some important avionics as well as lethality, Makes them the best choice for Air forces with restricted budgets.

But still... “Thunder thunder”, “Block 3” bla bla bla.

Neither are we aiming for numbers, What a joke really...

There is always a room for J-10C but that is not the topic for discussion here...

AZM should be delayed, Block 4 should be worked on with heavy reworks to bring it into a full Medium weight fighter.
project AZM will be delay if we keep working on thunders . block-3 in enough and we should move to next gen . jf-17 was first fly in early2000s and azm should first fly in mid 2020s sir . we can keep assembly line of block-3 open for long time and keeping filling and updating thunders . but its not mean we start work on block-4 . world did not end on thunders we have to move ahead
 
then it will be a different jet altogether
to accommodate everything at medium class level you will need to rework from start bigger fuselage bigger engine bigger wings it will be another jet with only similarity in name.
Alternate....
Increase cap min Block 3 Requirements, Increase pace up till 60, Slow the pace, Invest heavily on AZM, meanwhile keeping Block 3 line open for low rate production as well as open to systemic upgrades, Get Azm in air, Buy J-10 of that time.

We can brag all we want to about having technological superiority but if enemy also understands how important quality matters above quantity, They will invest in quality as well, while already having quantity.

So PAF should leave no door closed, Get EVERYTHING it can, Become a High tech and Numbers force, The psychological affect on enemy would double...
 
Nope they are egoistic in nature and obsessed by Pakistan, so now they are going for 7th Generation Tejas aka Samosa

You can keep calling it Samosa but learn to accept the reality.
 
You can keep calling it Samosa but learn to accept the reality.
I'm very much optimistic about the Tejas Platform specially the MK1A and the MK2 but will be highly thankful if you please share how many in service with IAF, IAF operating hardly 36 Tejas and most of them in IOC Configuration. Indians need another 3 decades to come out with mk1a and mk2.
 
Some people are silly enough to compare JF-17 with F-16.
Like seriously Viper have a total of 11 hard-points while Jeff have 7.
Viper can carry more weight. Viper id more agile than Jf-17. They still think a light category jet is better than F-16. How long we can push Falcons. We need to buy Medium weight jets. We can't just rely of JF-17.
JF-17 is not the future. An advance AESA radar in Light combat jet which can easily be outgunned by Rafael, F-16, EFT.
 
Indians did a great job technically when they’ve selected Rafale over US F-18 for MMRCA. From this move, they’ve secured their future. From the past few years, IAF has bought many US military hardware included C17, C130, and P8i. Except for P8i, none is critical, first-line or a primary defense weapon I would say. They’ve also signed for MH60R ASW which is again secondary.

Selecting an “American” weapon for your core defense is like you’re calling dalal to defend you at the time of rape attempt. This is more like you’re compromising your offensive and defense (both) capabilities. Americans are historical liar and blackmailer when it comes to your defense. Tho I am also a big fan of their military technology.

They’ve sent American spy on the name of Instructors/so-called experts at Jacobabad. Since then they're actively monitoring our activities. We know our super-duper BLK52 (world’s one of a most advanced fighter jet - Hell ya) are stationed there but what Americans are doing there inside the base? obviously surveillance of our movement and communication along with monitoring of OUR (Purchased) F16s. In fact, they’re doing much more than that which we might aware of but can’t do anything because of strings or maybe we have no idea (which is highly unlikely).

Americans are “opportunist”. Selecting non-US for your major front line weapon is a good strategy. Indians did the same with S-400 V Patriot. Despite American pressure, they went for Russian. They’re well aware of future repercussions and consequences once you’re in the US trap. They’ve also cent a very clear picture to the American administration about their future procurement for their Navy in which again no plan for F35.

Yea they’ve bought some critical ones from the US for their Navy. The reason for that was USN and IN has similar objective and interests which are very specific for the containment of China’s power projection in Asia Pacific.

We literally compromised our National Security and completely failed to identify PAF needs since 90s when the American administration has blocked the sales and stopped the transfer of our “paid” F16s. Till today, we’ve just 70+ front line fighters (mix of BLK15 + MLUs and BLK50/52) which I believe should be around 250+. JF paper can’t be your front line. Mushy diverted funds of BlK50/52 towards the Earthquake which was IMO one of the worst decisions else the balance of power would be different (somehow) but again US manufacturer.

We have tested Typhoon and Rafale in early 2000 (before India), however, we went for the FC which was specifically for the replacement (to get rid of old fleet + dual engines A-5) in the PAF inventory and technically has nothing to do with our front line deterrence which was and will remain F-16. Despite having enough money to make a good deal with French, we continue with the vipers (keep in mind, there was no issue of cash either at that time). Why it has happened simply because some top shits were obsessed with Americans (sorry to say) but that's what it is.... and the reason we are still struggling.

TOT concept (reality V Facts): TOT doesn’t mean that you will get the full capability of making everything in-house. That's more like information, research, and knowledge sharing which is consists of 50%-60% of the overall project. That has exactly happened with the Indians in the PAK-FA project. They thought that Russians will probably share all the ingredients, but it was indeed a setback for them as well despite spending a massive amount of money. The concept of TOT is very different from what we usually understand. You still dependent on foreign components for instance, Chinese are dependent on Russian for “Engines”. We’ve lost the ATAK deal just because of American Engine in Turkish 129. This is a vogue concept that you’re getting everything in the transfer.

IAF selection of non-US hardware for their front-line (primary) weapon is a great lesson for PAF decision-makers. Retrospect is very important at the national level.

@MastanKhan @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @graphican @StormBreaker
diverting PAF funds for earthquake looks terrible now but it was necessity politically inside and outside. yes PAF suffered and those funds also ended in curroption and mismanagement but there was no escape recall how much hostility was for the military back then.
cant bring back time now. bad luck political instability war on terror and indecisive laziness with natural desaster on top meant PAF was left with nothing.
France is out. Sweden aviation has American components and Euro project seems to be reaching an end.

so we have chinese stuff roughly based on russian design and few hacked western technology.

lets move on otherwise the remorse will eat us from inside out.

Some people are silly enough to compare JF-17 with F-16.
Like seriously Viper have a total of 11 hard-points while Jeff have 7.
Viper can carry more weight. Viper id more agile than Jf-17. They still think a light category jet is better than F-16. How long we can push Falcons. We need to buy Medium weight jets. We can't just rely of JF-17.
JF-17 is not the future. An advance AESA radar in Light combat jet which can easily be outgunned by Rafael, F-16, EFT.
I agree
there is no comparison between F16 and JF17. ignore the numbers . the design and quality alone sets F16 above JF17
 
Some people are silly enough to compare JF-17 with F-16.
Like seriously Viper have a total of 11 hard-points while Jeff have 7.
Viper can carry more weight. Viper id more agile than Jf-17. They still think a light category jet is better than F-16. How long we can push Falcons. We need to buy Medium weight jets. We can't just rely of JF-17.
JF-17 is not the future. An advance AESA radar in Light combat jet which can easily be outgunned by Rafael, F-16, EFT.


Hi,

If I replace the name JF17 with Saab Gripen---would you still stand by your comments---?

What do the number of hard points have to do air combat

What does agility have to do with air combat in the BVR capable world

How will the Rafale F16 Typhoon out gun the JF17---?
 
I didn't criticize the technology of Americans instead of their policy of selling weapons to Pakistan. Both are completely two different things.
our own policy is what we cna got free from US we should grab it :lol:
 
We seem to be caught in a trap of indigenous programs. Everything should be in balance. Indigenous programs should never stop you from buying other stuff.

At this point PAF needs front line medium weight jets or even off the shelf light fighters to bring the disparity down.
But if this is not possible and PAF has made its mind to simply weight for the JFTs to roll out than lets hope PAF is acquiring HQ-9B or at least HQ-22.
 
Selecting an “American” weapon for your core defense is like you’re calling dalal to defend you at the time of rape attempt.
Sir G, this supposed to earn the example of the year award ... :rofl:.
 
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Gripen is a whole new story, still better agility, avionics, EW suite, radar, Yes if we replace JF-17 with Gripens still there is need for Heavy or medium category fighters.

Number of hard-points have to do with more A2A missiles a jamming pod, precision guided bombs.
What will you do when you have to engage multiple bandits. You'll think twice while firing a missile you'll have to conserve weapons.

In BVR combat you are not 100% sure your missile is gonna hit the mark you'll give your position and end up in dog fight OR when you have to defend against incoming missiles how do you gonna do that with low agile jet.
Tell me if BVR missile always hit the target..

F-16, Rafael, EFT can outgun JF-17 because they carry more deadly arsenal.

Hi,

If I replace the name JF17 with Saab Gripen---would you still stand by your comments---?

What do the number of hard points have to do air combat

What does agility have to do with air combat in the BVR capable world

How will the Rafale F16 Typhoon out gun the JF17---?
 
all boils down to two(or three) things: incompetence, poor economy and american lobby.

اللہ ہمارا حامی و ناصر ہو۔
 
Brother for me JF is an ordinary absolute ordinary aircraft but for PAF fanboys and for many, JF is basically raptor's competitor. I've already mentioned in my post the reason of JF17's induction.
The options that are available for PAF JF-17 is the best option for "cheap" fighter. PAF cant afford 200+ Gripens or even F-16s.
 

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