Should PAF be looking at EJ200 for Thunder

[MultaniGuy]

I dont think PAF will change over to Chinese engines till such time that their engines are superior in thrust, reliability, MTBO and cheap.
Those may seem plausoble to you but it is a big ask.
A

You should read this:

WS13 / RD-33 / RD-93
The WS13 is a modified version of the Russian RD-33 engine. The engine for the FC-1 was initially the Russian RD-93, but it is intended that the WS13 will eventually be used. In 2005 China signed a $267 million contract with Russia for 100 RD-93 turbofan engines, a variant of the RD-33, to power the FC-1 Fierce Dragon fighter aircraft, with options for another 400 engines. Engine deliveries from Klimov and Chernyshev were to begin in 2006. The RD-93 engines is a variant of the RD-33 engine developed to power the MiG-29 fighter jet.

The RD-93 was developed by Russia's Klimov design bureau specifically for the FC-1 fighter, known in Pakistan as the JF-17 Thunder. Pakistan has announced that it could procure 150-300 JF-17 aircraft to meet the tactical and strategic needs of its Air Force. Russia, whose military cooperation with India had been bogged down by a number of sensitive issues, such as a delay in the overhaul of the Gorshkov aircraft carrier and a price escalation with the Su-30 MKI contract, informed China in 2006 that re-exporting RD-93 engines was not allowed without Moscow's permission.

Beijing went ahead and delivered two RD-93 equipped JF-17 fighters to Pakistan in March 2007 prompting India to protest the deal as a violation of the end-user agreement between Russia and China. India, concerned over Islamabad's growing military potential, has asked Russia, its close ally, to "freeze" the deal. In August 2007 Russia blocked China from re-exporting Russian RD-93 engines for Chinese-made fighters to Pakistan.

In late December 2009, Russian state arms exporter Rosoboronexport signed a contract with China to deliver 43 RD-93 engines. China would receive the engines by the end of 2009. The first 25 engines had been manufactured at the Chernyshev mechanical engineering enterprise in Moscow. The December contract was worth $160 million. The contract completed the framework agreement signed in 2006 to deliver 100 RD-93 engines to China. Russia had already supplied 57 such engines.

Russian aircraft makers MiG and Sukhoi spoke against the sale of RD-93 jet engines to China, citing the threat of strong competition from cheaper Chinese FC-1 fighters, which are direct competitors of the famed MiG-29 Fulcrum aircraft. Russian aircraft industry source say the FC-1 is inferior to MiG-29 in performance, but sells for about $10 million, while the price of a MiG-29 is about $35 mln. By mid-2010 MiG-29s were competing with FC-1s in an Egyptian tender on the delivery of 32 fighters. In addition, Egypt had launched negotiations with Pakistan on the licensed production of FC-1 aircraft.

By November 2010 Russia's state-run arms exporter Rosoboronexport was preparing a contract for the delivery of additional RD-93 jet engines to China. "We are holding new talks with the China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation [CATIC] on another option for additional 100 RD-93 engines," Deputy General Director of Rosoboronexport Alexander Mikheyev said at the Airshow China 2010, which is being held on November 16-21 in Zhuhai. "We hope that this contract will be signed," Mikheyev added.

The WS13 engine is 4.14 meters long, 1.02 meters in diameter, weighing 1,135 kg. The engine will have a major repair interval of roughly 810 hrs, service life span 2200 hrs, both far exceed the RD-33 engine. Most western jets have easily double the amount of time interval between overhauls and double the engine life when compared to Chinese and/or Russian engines. The difference lies in material sciences. The alloysand materials used can double the life of the engine thus greatly reducing service costs.

The engine uses a three-string wide solid titanium axial core. The former fans are computer-controlled variable steering guide vanes. The 8-stage axial pressure compressor (for the former three adjustable guide vane) used hollow-cooled single-stage low-pressure turbine rotor blade. The single crystal turbine blades for the high-pressure turbine blade and a guide, annular combustor. a tip clearance control air heat exchanger and integrated digital control system for the whole.

The Klimov RD-33 was developed to power the Mig-29 multi-role fighter. Most of the RD-33 parts are used in the WS-13, some only slightly modified, is a small part of the new development. The introduction of improved production technology equipment is the WP13 most significant gain over the RD-33. Russia is responsible for the training of technical staff and some workers, a number of workers have the training equipment shipped back together, installation and testing of production, and other reasonable arrangements for the various components of production.

Initially, the FC-1/JF-17 project was looking for a new engine instead of the unreliable Russian RD93. So the institute in charge of TianShan21 decided to cooperate with CAC and develop a new engine on the basis of the abandoned Tianshan 21 core engine. The core engine of the WS13 is the core engine of the project "Tianshan 21", one of the competitors for the next Chinese engine after the WS10A. Its T/W ratio is set to 10, while that of AL37 and WS10 is less than 8. By some accounts the TianShan 21 project was given up by the PLA after its core engine was rolled out, because some more attractive projects were available.



ENGINES:
Chinese Russian Percentage
WS13 RD-93 Difference
Length (m): 4.15 4.25 -2.35%
Diameter (m): 1.02 1.04 -1.92%
Weight (kg): 1135 1055 +7.58%
Thrust (afterburning, kN): 86.37 81.3 +6.24%
Thrust (dry, kN): 56.75 50 +13.50%
Bypass ratio: 0.57 0.49 +16.33%





Tien Shan [Celestial Mountains]
Recent Chinese turbofan engines have been named after famous mountains in China. The WS13 is named after Tien Shan [Celestial Mountains]. There are four principal mountain ranges in China, viz.: The Tien Shan [Celestial Mountains], Himalaya, Nan Shan and Soyoti, all of which have peaks extending above the snow line; besides numerous mountain ridges, which are below the snow line. The Tien Shan [Celestial Mountains] and Altai mountain systems approach each other to within a hundred miles, the intervening space being occupied by high steppe, which forms the first rise from the Dzungarian lowlands to the Mongolian plateau. This eastern extension of the Tian Shan chain, which approaches so closely to the Altai Range and which extends far into Mongolia before disappearing in the Gobi Desert, is composed of the ranges called the Bogdo-ola, Barkul, and Karlik Tagh, and, still farther east, the Ati Bogdo. It is somewhere among these mountains that the true dividing-line exists between the two subdivisions.

The Tien-shan is in its mean direction parallel to the equator. It serpentines between the 41st and 43rd degrees of latitude. It extends from Ming-bulak (or the thousand sources) of the western Buruts to the Chinese city of Kuku-khote (about 200 miles west of the great ocean); about eight times the length of the chain of the Pyrenees. Westward of the cross-range of the Bolor, the Tien-shan extends as far as the meridian of Samarkand-the mountains of Asferah, celebrated in the memoirs of Baber. The denomination Tien-shan is strictly applicable only to the portion of the range intercepted between the meridian of the Bolor and the great swelling of the Gobi east of Hami and Barkul. Between lake Chagan and the western extremity of the In-shan (which, although two degrees farther south, is the continuation of the Tien-shan in China proper) the elevation of this range is less obvious, owing to the height of the table-land through which it rises.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/ws13.htm

 

[BATMAN]

Engine technology is very complex. It will take China some time for the tech to mature and for it to produce quality engines. So not going to haplen any time soon.
A

Engine technology is as complex as any other machine.
However to produce a high thrust to weight ratio engine, with reasonable reliability, require skill in manufacturing and skills in other engineering discipline like thermodynamics, innovative design engineering skills and most of above combustion techniques... all this translates to loads of skilled manpower..... plus test facilities.
West leads the way due to available skills and decades of closely kept knowledge of testing, evaluation and manufacturing.
China do have various fighter aircraft engines designs in testing and few in operation. It's just matter of time, when China will catch up.

 

[araz]

Engine technology is as complex as any other machine.
However to produce a high thrust to weight ratio engine, with reasonable reliability, require skill in manufacturing and skills in other engineering discipline like thermodynamics, innovative design engineering skills and most of above combustion techniques... all this translates to loads of skilled manpower..... plus test facilities.
West leads the way due to available skills and decades of closely kept knowledge of testing, evaluation and manufacturing.
China do have various fighter aircraft engines designs in testing and few in operation. It's just matter of time, when China will catch up.

Agreed but what is the time required and what is the benefit in changing engines at that time. You have to understand the Russians w8ll also not sit down but will be progressing. They have mature industry as well.
A

You should read this:

WS13 / RD-33 / RD-93
The WS13 is a modified version of the Russian RD-33 engine. The engine for the FC-1 was initially the Russian RD-93, but it is intended that the WS13 will eventually be used. In 2005 China signed a $267 million contract with Russia for 100 RD-93 turbofan engines, a variant of the RD-33, to power the FC-1 Fierce Dragon fighter aircraft, with options for another 400 engines. Engine deliveries from Klimov and Chernyshev were to begin in 2006. The RD-93 engines is a variant of the RD-33 engine developed to power the MiG-29 fighter jet.

The RD-93 was developed by Russia's Klimov design bureau specifically for the FC-1 fighter, known in Pakistan as the JF-17 Thunder. Pakistan has announced that it could procure 150-300 JF-17 aircraft to meet the tactical and strategic needs of its Air Force. Russia, whose military cooperation with India had been bogged down by a number of sensitive issues, such as a delay in the overhaul of the Gorshkov aircraft carrier and a price escalation with the Su-30 MKI contract, informed China in 2006 that re-exporting RD-93 engines was not allowed without Moscow's permission.

Beijing went ahead and delivered two RD-93 equipped JF-17 fighters to Pakistan in 2007 prompting India to protest the deal as a violation of the end-user agreement between Russia and China. India, concerned over Islamabad's growing military potential, has asked Russia, its close ally, to "freeze" the deal. In August 2007 Russia blocked China from re-exporting Russian RD-93 engines for Chinese-made fighters to Pakistan.

In late December 2009, Russian state arms exporter Rosoboronexport signed a contract with China to deliver 43 RD-93 engines. China would receive the engines by the end of 2009. The first 25 engines had been manufactured at the Chernyshev mechanical engineering enterprise in Moscow. The December contract was worth $160 million. The contract completed the framework agreement signed in 2006 to deliver 100 RD-93 engines to China. Russia had already supplied 57 such engines.

Russian aircraft makers MiG and Sukhoi spoke against the sale of RD-93 jet engines to China, citing the threat of strong competition from cheaper Chinese FC-1 fighters, which are direct competitors of the famed MiG-29 Fulcrum aircraft. Russian aircraft industry source say the FC-1 is inferior to MiG-29 in performance, but sells for about $10 million, while the price of a MiG-29 is about $35 mln. By mid-2010 MiG-29s were competing with FC-1s in an Egyptian tender on the delivery of 32 fighters. In addition, Egypt had launched negotiations with Pakistan on the licensed production of FC-1 aircraft.

By November 2010 Russia's state-run arms exporter Rosoboronexport was preparing a contract for the delivery of additional RD-93 jet engines to China. "We are holding new talks with the China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation [CATIC] on another option for additional 100 RD-93 engines," Deputy General Director of Rosoboronexport Alexander Mikheyev said at the Airshow China 2010, which is being held on November 16-21 in Zhuhai. "We hope that this contract will be signed," Mikheyev added.

The WS13 engine is 4.14 meters long, 1.02 meters in diameter, weighing 1,135 kg. The engine will have a major repair interval of roughly 810 hrs, service life span 2200 hrs, both far exceed the RD-33 engine. Most western jets have easily double the amount of time interval between overhauls and double the engine life when compared to Chinese and/or Russian engines. The difference lies in material sciences. The alloysand materials used can double the life of the engine thus greatly reducing service costs.

The engine uses a three-string wide solid titanium axial core. The former fans are computer-controlled variable steering guide vanes. The 8-stage axial pressure compressor (for the former three adjustable guide vane) used hollow-cooled single-stage low-pressure turbine rotor blade. The single crystal turbine blades for the high-pressure turbine blade and a guide, annular combustor. a tip clearance control air heat exchanger and integrated digital control system for the whole.

The Klimov RD-33 was developed to power the Mig-29 multi-role fighter. Most of the RD-33 parts are used in the WS-13, some only slightly modified, is a small part of the new development. The introduction of improved production technology equipment is the WP13 most significant gain over the RD-33. Russia is responsible for the training of technical staff and some workers, a number of workers have the training equipment shipped back together, installation and testing of production, and other reasonable arrangements for the various components of production.

Initially, the FC-1/JF-17 project was looking for a new engine instead of the unreliable Russian RD93. So the institute in charge of TianShan21 decided to cooperate with CAC and develop a new engine on the basis of the abandoned Tianshan 21 core engine. The core engine of the WS13 is the core engine of the project "Tianshan 21", one of the competitors for the next Chinese engine after the WS10A. Its T/W ratio is set to 10, while that of AL37 and WS10 is less than 8. By some accounts the TianShan 21 project was given up by the PLA after its core engine was rolled out, because some more attractive projects were available.



ENGINES:
Chinese Russian Percentage
WS13 RD-93 Difference
Length (m): 4.15 4.25 -2.35%
Diameter (m): 1.02 1.04 -1.92%
Weight (kg): 1135 1055 +7.58%
Thrust (afterburning, kN): 86.37 81.3 +6.24%
Thrust (dry, kN): 56.75 50 +13.50%
Bypass ratio: 0.57 0.49 +16.33%





Tien Shan [Celestial Mountains]
Recent Chinese turbofan engines have been named after famous mountains in China. The WS13 is named after Tien Shan [Celestial Mountains]. There are four principal mountain ranges in China, viz.: The Tien Shan [Celestial Mountains], Himalaya, Nan Shan and Soyoti, all of which have peaks extending above the snow line; besides numerous mountain ridges, which are below the snow line. The Tien Shan [Celestial Mountains] and Altai mountain systems approach each other to within a hundred miles, the intervening space being occupied by high steppe, which forms the first rise from the Dzungarian lowlands to the Mongolian plateau. This eastern extension of the Tian Shan chain, which approaches so closely to the Altai Range and which extends far into Mongolia before disappearing in the Gobi Desert, is composed of the ranges called the Bogdo-ola, Barkul, and Karlik Tagh, and, still farther east, the Ati Bogdo. It is somewhere among these mountains that the true dividing-line exists between the two subdivisions.

The Tien-shan is in its mean direction parallel to the equator. It serpentines between the 41st and 43rd degrees of latitude. It extends from Ming-bulak (or the thousand sources) of the western Buruts to the Chinese city of Kuku-khote (about 200 miles west of the great ocean); about eight times the length of the chain of the Pyrenees. Westward of the cross-range of the Bolor, the Tien-shan extends as far as the meridian of Samarkand-the mountains of Asferah, celebrated in the memoirs of Baber. The denomination Tien-shan is strictly applicable only to the portion of the range intercepted between the meridian of the Bolor and the great swelling of the Gobi east of Hami and Barkul. Between lake Chagan and the western extremity of the In-shan (which, although two degrees farther south, is the continuation of the Tien-shan in China proper) the elevation of this range is less obvious, owing to the height of the table-land through which it rises.
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/ws13.htm

Thank you. I will read it in detail later. However given the fact that the original agreement for Russian help was signed in 2005 and in 2018 WS13 is still in testing phase means somethings are still not quite right. The question is will they become right? The second question is that when will WS13 reach a stage when it is more mature sophisticated and has higher thrust and lower MTBO than the competition which will make PAF change its mind. From the news emerging PAF is increasingly collaborating with the Russians to develop RD93 and establish overhaul facilities. It shows that PAF is committed to the RD93 for the forseeable future.
A

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

IIRC, PAC basically said it'll stick with the RD-93, esp. after 'working very closely' with Klimov to optimize it for the JF-17. Any thought of a new engine at this point will be in regards to Project Azm, for which they'll need to select an engine eventually so as to proceed with airframe design work.

 

[Armchair]

IIRC, PAC basically said it'll stick with the RD-93, esp. after 'working very closely' with Klimov to optimize it for the JF-17. Any thought of a new engine at this point will be in regards to Project Azm, for which they'll need to select an engine eventually so as to proceed with airframe design work.

@messiach has said that the engine is not RD-93 and not WS-13, but a "new" engine. We don't know what this new engine is.

 

[BATMAN]

Agreed but what is the time required and what is the benefit in changing engines at that time. You have to understand the Russians w8ll also not sit down but will be progressing. They have mature industry as well.
A

No benefit in changing engine in given circumstances.
May be for AZM, but i personally would choose the way as i described earlier, i.e. local manufacturing in partnership with current supplier and building upon from that.

Even if Chinese manage to successfully test an engine, they would not be able to produce one in numbers required and at any lower cost then Russians.

Pakistan lacks experience in gas turbines technology, because never foreign companies like GE or Siemens, RollsRoyce etc. ever stepped into Pakistan's commercial market, but still some limited experience exists at Kamara, where they have been servicing mirage and F7 engines.
All what is required is to expand on the skilled man power, starting with getting a pool of scientists and engineers in mechanical engineering.

In the end, it will remain conditional to the fact that anti army govt. didn't assume power in Pakistan, during this time.

 

[MastanKhan]

Why should we??? when we can make our own with a joint venture with China in the future.

I heard of the WS-13.

Stupid to go to a third source.

Chinese are more reliable and don't do strings attached.

Hi,

The fighter aircraft is engine is not COMPLEX in definition---but the stresses that it takes are extra ordinary---.

You maybe flying in normal power mode one instance and in the next at 'military' power mode---then widning down to normal mode---then going back up to military power---and then to after burner mode---.

So---from 80% and under power mode---you are going to 100% power mode and then to 110% ---.

It is just like in a formula type race car---constant up and down of rpms---engine runnign at maximu and then coming down---. Plus the engine needs to keep running for a while even if gets damaged by shrapnel---.

So---the conditions that a fighter aircraft engine operates under are extremely extra ordinary---.

Today at 11:29 AM#76

I just saw your copy paste---worthless post.

Youngman---please---you are totally clueless to what you are pasting and posting---.

Please learn to have some understanding of he subject matter at least---.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Hi,

The fighter aircraft is engine is not COMPLEX in definition---but the stresses that it takes are extra ordinary---.

You maybe flying in normal power mode one instance and in the next at 'military' power mode---then widning down to normal mode---then going back up to military power---and then to after burner mode---.

So---from 80% and under power mode---you are going to 100% power mode and then to 110% ---.

It is just like in a formula type race car---constant up and down of rpms---engine runnign at maximu and then coming down---. Plus the engine needs to keep running for a while even if gets damaged by shrapnel---.

So---the conditions that a fighter aircraft engine operates under are extremely extra ordinary---.

Today at 11:29 AM#76

I just saw your copy paste---worthless post.

Youngman---please---you are totally clueless to what you are pasting and posting---.

Please learn to have some understanding of he subject matter at least---.

Umm... no it's not a worthless post.
The article says Pakistan will eventually use WS-13 engines for JF-17.

And its from GlobalSecurity as well.

 

[MastanKhan]

Umm... no it's not a worthless post.
The article says Pakistan will eventually use WS-13 engines for JF-17.

And its from GlobalSecurity as well.

Hi,

What is your in put in its generation---. There are hundreds of posts like these on the web and this thread---.

 

[messiach]

Hi, I would be leaving for Pk this week. Looking forward to retired life. @MastanKhan @Oscar @Horus @Windjammer @everybody.
Turbine is not the RD93 build for FC1. Thats what i can tell you.
Chinese are willing to sell their engines with some basic ToT but not what we want (clever people) & PAF is no-where baseline equipped to develop and fabricate turbines. This will have to be national project on similar grounds to nukes. I would therefore still go with russia.

@messiach has said that the engine is not RD-93 and not WS-13.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi, I would be leaving for Pk this week. Looking forward to retired life. @MastanKhan @Oscar @Horus @Windjammer @everybody.
Turbine is not the RD93 build for FC1. Thats what i can tell you.
Chinese are willing to sell their engines with some basic ToT but not what we want (clever people) & PAF is no-where baseline equipped to develop and fabricate turbines. This will have to be national project on similar grounds to nukes. I would therefore still go with russia.

I know it might be arbitrary, but given how late Project Azm is likely to come (e.g. 2030s), wouldn't it make sense for the design philosophy to try and emulate what the UK, France, Sweden, etc are trying with their next-gen fighters? They're calling them "6th-gen" but I think the term is somewhat arbitrary because the Europeans haven't defined what's "6th gen" about their work.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi, I would be leaving for Pk this week. Looking forward to retired life. @MastanKhan @Oscar @Horus @Windjammer @everybody.
Turbine is not the RD93 build for FC1. Thats what i can tell you.
Chinese are willing to sell their engines with some basic ToT but not what we want (clever people) & PAF is no-where baseline equipped to develop and fabricate turbines. This will have to be national project on similar grounds to nukes. I would therefore still go with russia.

Hi,

Thank you very much for your post---.

Basic rule of engineering---do not fix what is not broke.

What looks bright and shiny---may not be the best solution to our problem---.

What looks like rough and rugged---maybe the best solution---.

Just like the old Timex commercial---" It takes a licking---and keeps on ticking---".

My analysis is that the Paf cannot alienate the russians in picking up a different engine---when the russians are willing to do the required changes and upgrades---.

It really does not make any sense at all to go the european route or build your own engine---.

Enjoy your retirement---.

 

[SQ8]

Hi, I would be leaving for Pk this week. Looking forward to retired life. @MastanKhan @Oscar @Horus @Windjammer @everybody.
Turbine is not the RD93 build for FC1. Thats what i can tell you.
Chinese are willing to sell their engines with some basic ToT but not what we want (clever people) & PAF is no-where baseline equipped to develop and fabricate turbines. This will have to be national project on similar grounds to nukes. I would therefore still go with russia.

Have some mangoes before they go sour.
As for the Turbine, we are better off actually developing on our relationship with Europe.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Have some mangoes before they go sour.
As for the Turbine, we are better off actually developing on our relationship with Europe.

If the implications made about Project Azm being an in-house, original design are correct, I wonder if there's any bandwidth for roping in Saab? They're apparently willing to participate (in varying capacities it seems, so they can provide as little or as much as you need and they can offer) in next-gen fighter programs...

When asked about Saab’s view on so-called sixth generation fighter programmes, which are likely to see cross border efforts to develop advanced fighters or unmanned combat vehicles, Hjelm said that Saab is already deep into futuristic work with the Gripen E development.

“We are willing to talk to everyone in Europe and even outside about next generation fighters. Gripen E will be part of that discussion.”

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...aab-pushes-ahead-with-gripen-e-develo-450275/

Next-up, you have the UK and its Tempest program. I wonder who they're talking about that's concerned about responding to 'India flexing its military muscles' ?? I wonder if a thesis can be made about Trump triggering the Europeans into taking more ownership of their defence and, in turn, Europe liberalizing its arms trade regimes (enough to re-include Pakistan) as a means to build scale and profit to sustain their arms procurement?

The U.K. is in discussions with other countries about partnering on the project that would also maintain some 18,000 jobs at home. Suggestions include a pact with Sweden, where Saab AB makes the Gripen fighter, or possibly Japan and elsewhere in Asia, where demand for warplanes is increasing as China and India flex their military muscle.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...il-model-of-u-k-s-next-generation-fighter-jet

 

[Avicenna]

Interesting happenings in Europe.

Hopefully Pakistan and Turkey can take advantage of the changing political winds.