Should PAF be looking at EJ200 for Thunder

[niaz]

EJ200 is no doubt capable of providing enough thrust required for Super Cruise. IMO a redesign of the air intake inlets of JF17 would also be required. Then there is an issue of the aircraft’s fuel consumption. Jf-17 is short legged in any case; given the super cruise ability would shorten the range even further.

I would like someone to answer the question “Would the added advantage of super cruise ability be worth the added cost and reduction in combat range of the aircraft?”

 

[TaimiKhan]

EJ200 is no doubt capable of providing enough thrust required for Super Cruise. IMO a redesign of the air intake inlets of JF17 would also be required. Then there is an issue of the aircraft’s fuel consumption. Jf-17 is short legged in any case; given the super cruise ability would shorten the range even further.

I would like someone to answer the question “Would the added advantage of super cruise ability be worth the added cost and reduction in combat range of the aircraft?”

Sir, its not necessary that combat range would be reduced critically, rather it may give the aircraft the advantage to reach the target quickly without having used the after burners, less fuel consumed compared to when in after burner mode, and same case for exit too. As we know after burner uses more fuel compared to when the engines / aircraft are in super cruise mode.

So yes, super cruise may not be ideal in every scenario, can have disadvantage, but it can also be useful as it gives speed without the consumption of fuel while in afterburner.

Super cruise gives you the advantage to get to the target quicker and with enough fuel left for a dogfight.

Super cruise means you can sustain supersonic flight without consuming massive quantities of fuel. The engine being much more efficient in super cruise than while using the afterburner, is better able supersonic flight. So you can fight for longer, going faster and (for the same amount of fuel) go farther.

Faster into the fight, faster out. Sometimes it makes the difference.

 

[gypgypgyp]

Actually the EJ 200 and RD 93 are far more reliable than any of the Chinese engines. Simple reason is EJ 200 has completed more than 10,000 hours in flight. The RD series engines have been in use for a very long time,

And there us a problem with the M 88 underperforming atomizer so it is underpowere. Snecma and GTRE are going to sign up a deal for incorporating the snecma core to the Kaveri replacing the Kabini core.

So there is nothing wrong with PAF taking a look at the EJ 200.

ws-13 is just a copy of rd-33 with minor change. There is no way to say rd series is much reliable. Mikoyan and chinese signed the engine agreement in 1993 for super 7, which ultimately become to jf-17.


I think ws-13 project spend so much time primarily because china is poor country. Back to 1999, chinese military budget is only around 11 billion USD and 2.3 million military personel thirst for money.

 

[Comet]

The best part of it is the word ToT. It makes my mouth water.

 

[Arsalan]

Should PAF be looking at EJ200for Thunder

well the arrangement should better be like;
Can PAF look for EJ200?

and my answer will still be NO!

JFT have all components comming from reliable supplier or are indegenious, why creat the fuss of strings to some thing free flying?
it might be a great engine in itself but then some day we will be going shoping for better radars from US, Missiles from EU and all stuff. dont you think this kills the real theam of indegenious fighter aircraft.

PAF must stick to RD unless WS-13 is available.

saying all this, in first place, EJ200 wont ever be offered to us.

regards!

 

[muse]

For arguments' sake, what if the EJ200 was offered to us, should we opt to give Western powers such control over our defense?

 

[TaimiKhan]

For arguments' sake, what if the EJ200 was offered to us, should we opt to give Western powers such control over our defense?

Without full ToT or atleast the capability to manufacture critical spare parts in house, we should never go for such an option.

It will give us a lot of problems, especially as around 50-60% of the fleet would be consisting of JF-17s.

 

[muse]

ToT is a rather deceptive term or concept here -- Look at what the US is proposing to do the the Turks, it will deal a death blow to the economy of Turkiye, If Turkiye does not impose sanctions on Iran in the way the US wants and of course, there is Israel to kiss and give concessions to - in other words, to lose your independence - so Turks will have ToT whatever that means, but to effect?

BTW - See thread is Turkiye in Nato (something to that effect) on Turkiye board

 

[Quwa]

In the long-term, Pakistan should team up with countries such as Ukraine to jointly develop & produce a fighter-use turbofan engine. As I said many times before, it would be a prudent decision to start ASAP and gradually develop over 15-20 years - so that we gain the experience and means, as well as end up with a mature design when necessary (for not only JF-17, but also other programs in the future). This is flexibility and indigenous support that we need...

In the short and medium-term, we'll have to rely on foreign systems - but we can localize certain aspects. For example, Pakistan can produce non-sensitive parts on license; be able to fully maintain and overhaul the engines domestically; and perhaps contract the firms in question to lend a hand in teaching and transferring technologies they deem non-sensitive - so that Pakistan at least has a start.

JF-17 itself will continue using the RD-93-series...even upgraded variants, such as the reported "RD-93M" which would include higher thrust, FADEC and maybe even TVC. That said, Pakistani officials stated very recently (Farnborough) that they have options beyond Russia and China, and my guess is that the SNECMA M-88-3 (90kn+ thrust). With the Rafale not breaking through into the market, I think the French would be quite happy to sell something off the Rafale...

 

[Dazzler]

We are doing just that since project commenced. Remember that RD-93 also has a significant amount of Ukrainian components ! More options are open as well

 

[SBD-3]

In the long-term, Pakistan should team up with countries such as Ukraine to jointly develop & produce a fighter-use turbofan engine. As I said many times before, it would be a prudent decision to start ASAP and gradually develop over 15-20 years - so that we gain the experience and means, as well as end up with a mature design when necessary (for not only JF-17, but also other programs in the future). This is flexibility and indigenous support that we need...

In the short and medium-term, we'll have to rely on foreign systems - but we can localize certain aspects. For example, Pakistan can produce non-sensitive parts on license; be able to fully maintain and overhaul the engines domestically; and perhaps contract the firms in question to lend a hand in teaching and transferring technologies they deem non-sensitive - so that Pakistan at least has a start.

JF-17 itself will continue using the RD-93-series...even upgraded variants, such as the reported "RD-93M" which would include higher thrust, FADEC and maybe even TVC. That said, Pakistani officials stated very recently (Farnborough) that they have options beyond Russia and China, and my guess is that the SNECMA M-88-3 (90kn+ thrust). With the Rafale not breaking through into the market, I think the French would be quite happy to sell something off the Rafale...

Why not to seek help of our Chinese friends which are already nearing the completion of their engines....
The Ukranians wont be able to offer us much as they only have two manufacturers 1)Ivchenko-Progress and 2)Motor Sich. The best turbofan engine produced by them is Lotarev DV-2 with Maximum thrust: 2,498 Kgf; 5,508 pounds-force (24.50 kN)
and anotherone by the name of Ivchenko AI-25 with Maximum thrust: 3800 lbf (16.9 kN). Where else to look?...
Western manufacturers......
Russian ones..........
Americans.......hell
so the only viable option is .....

 

[flameboard]

Pakistan should pursue ej2000 the reason why I say this is because of ToT and of course super cruise. This engine belongs to a European country and not an American one. If Pakistan tries hard enough I think the company could be convinced for a full ToT, if that isn't offered already. Remember after the ToT Pakistan will still need pay the company every time it makes an engine. But say in times of need when our borders are closed, to have the capability to self produce such items will prove to be vital. Plus after having the technology Pakistan can peruse plans to make a jet engine based off of this one by itself, which it could to lower production costs or could be also introduced into the market as a means of making more money. Technology is the way to go these days.

Now is this some thing PAF might peruse or just something you think it should do?

 

[Sinnerman108]

In the long-term, Pakistan should team up with countries such as Ukraine to jointly develop & produce a fighter-use turbofan engine. As I said many times before, it would be a prudent decision to start ASAP and gradually develop over 15-20 years - so that we gain the experience and means, as well as end up with a mature design when necessary (for not only JF-17, but also other programs in the future). This is flexibility and indigenous support that we need...

In the short and medium-term, we'll have to rely on foreign systems - but we can localize certain aspects. For example, Pakistan can produce non-sensitive parts on license; be able to fully maintain and overhaul the engines domestically; and perhaps contract the firms in question to lend a hand in teaching and transferring technologies they deem non-sensitive - so that Pakistan at least has a start.

JF-17 itself will continue using the RD-93-series...even upgraded variants, such as the reported "RD-93M" which would include higher thrust, FADEC and maybe even TVC. That said, Pakistani officials stated very recently (Farnborough) that they have options beyond Russia and China, and my guess is that the SNECMA M-88-3 (90kn+ thrust). With the Rafale not breaking through into the market, I think the French would be quite happy to sell something off the Rafale...

The more I read this guy, the more i like him !

I fully endorse Mark's point of view, and I wish the same is carried on other threads as well.

In addition to Ukraine, I can tell you teaming up with Poland, Romania and Belarus will be extremely extremely beneficial and cost effective

< < praying the decision makers go this way and not pull a fool again.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

You kids are totally living in ether. You talk about super cruise like you are buying some 'gajak' at phajay di hutee'.

You people need to do a lot more research---you need to understand the politcal ramification---you think america is just going to let you have super cruise capability now or in the next twenty years.

You people think that a little plane like the JF 17 can handle the stresses of supercruise----.

Suddenly why this fetish with super cruise.

Next---you already have china developing two engine for your prime aircraft---the JF 17 and the J10B----and you want to start a JV with someone else.

Do you really really think that china would allow you to invest with someone else.

Has common sense left you people's residence---what are you doing now---instead of using your brains---you are thinking with your feet.

Jumping from one house to the next house---from china to romania, poland, belarus, ukraine---in one go---where ukraine has hardly any money to develop anything major---and the other three---two in the american house---the third has no direction.

 

[ptldM3]

How can PAF look at it when they are offering it to india?

These engines got super cruise which at the moments is a classified technology...
Pakistan being Chinese ally,doesn't stand a chance.

Technically there is no such thing as a supercruise engine, meaning you might not acheive supercruise if those same EJ-200's were placed, for example, on a Jaguar. There are several things that need to happen in order to achieve supercruise, and those would be, acheive a high level of dry thrust and have aerodynamics that are optimal for sigh speeds, low drag. I also believe that the Eurofighter can only supercruise in a clean configuration.

Isn't super cruise a classified tech? How can you be so sure about your analysis?
Any links?

Supercruise has been around for decades.

Supercruise - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The first turbine-powered aircraft to exceed Mach 1 in level flight without afterburners was the P.1 prototype of the English Electric Lightning, on August 11, 1954.