Sensitive Data of Indian Navy’s Scorpene Class Submarines Leaked

[Abingdonboy]

Anyway....This may become the biggest scandal...I find it quite interesting how IN handles her things....Blasting own subs while sitting in docks and then this....

Glad we have such informed and entlightened members here....

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

The burns islamists get from a word with 3 letters is just awesome , just love it.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Considering that a prosecution was successfully carried out in Italy, maybe you should teach them how the law works according to you. Unlike you, I go by what exists on the ground, not what conspiracy theory might have put them there. A little idea of jurisdiction might inform you why who the bribe was given to was not relevant to the case in Italy.

What did you expect the Indian government to argue? Not only that they can't get hold of the bribe takers but that the Italians have jailed some innocent people for no reason at all to dent an important company of theirs, merely to play politics? Ya, that will fly....Finmeccanica, the company has reached a settlement with the prosecution. Do you want GoI to make an argument of innocence on behalf of a company that has admitted guilt ?

I am not making excuses for wrongdoing, I am merely arguing for due process to take place and the Indian leadership to fight their over-emotional and irrational tendancies and not hurt the military's capabilities by taking rash and impulsive decisions now. I simply cited the AW-101 to highlight what consequences such decsions can have.

 

[Indrajit]

I am not making excuses for wrongdoing, I am merely arguing for due process to take place and the Indian leadership to fight their over-emotional and irrational tendancies and not hurt the military's capabilities by taking rash and impulsive decisions now. I simply cited the AW-101 to highlight what consequences such decsions can have.

In the case you quoted (Finmeccanica), GoI had absolutely no option but to do what they did. Anything else would have been suicide. This is a different type of an issue, more serious than charges of bribery with a possibility of a compromised platform. Regardless of whether or not GoI feel the need to amend this contract in terms of numbers, it would be very difficult to give a follow up order without some major concessions from DCNS and even that might not be enough.

No one is arguing for a rash or impulsive decision but no one can pretend that it is business as usual. We are in for a period of flux and that is pretty much the last thing the submarine arm needed at this point.

 

[Imran Khan]

now question is what the leaked

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

now question is what the leaked

Any guesses?

 

[ashok321]

https://twitter.com/x/status/768788646426095616

 

[sathya]

Leak may shift the orders from scorpene to barakuda

Or early upgrade ofscorpene may be with AIp

 

[punit]

Acoustic signature of a submarine is only known when the product finished hits the testing on sea for extended period of time and under different conditions/speed and depth its recorded and finally added to IFF Library.

In essence every material used to additions and deletion in terms of customization can vastly change teh signature print of a submarine.

Fortunately such a signature print is not there to be shared as first Kalavari undergoing sea trials as of now and hence there is no question of any acoustic signature being leaked ..

Even if suppose via different means our adversaries come to know of a band in which such submarines can be found and use complex tracking methods and algorithms, there is also another big friend of ours who protects us .. Tahts the second point...

The second point is a very beautiful phenomena in the war waters surrounding IOR (near the equator the warm waters)
View attachment 328689

thats by Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat in a telegraph newspaper report
here: http://www.telegraphindia.com/1160825/jsp/frontpage/story_104361.jsp

Thus this is why there are additional layers of protection there... Recall a recent exercise where a US SSn versus Kilo sub in Indian exercise happened and SSN could not detect kilo. Now we can be clear that US has the most sophisticated tech in its sub and yet it could not detect kilo sub.. It tells you the potential challenges... Even though they have already got signature of Kilo subs in their library via NATO allies, yet this result.. Thus, there is much more to just the signature

The third angle is the crew and its experience +capability. Even a greenhorn with the best machine can be a fail case, but a good crew under a good leader can defy everything and yet come out on top. Sufficient to say, with kilo experience already, Scorpene crew folks would have incorporated small but important learning from training and seniors.. This will matter a lot and will provide the vital difference between winning and losing..

why we are not buying Kilos any more .. are they out of production ?

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@Abingdonboy @Nilgiri @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @GuardianRED @Vergennes @others


Its a bit strange that Australian newspaper and the reporter going all out to raise the panic factor and sensationalize the expose.. His assertion now is that there is some confusion in India as nothing is blacked out in the dox what he has.

essentially the jargons use for scorpenes by most media folks in Australia and people in India who follow them are
- its nude now post leaks
- computer simulations would lead to scorpene to shortfin sub systems linkage
- China will fully negate Indian potential submarine fleet
- China have already downloaded the material and will incorporate changes to their submarines to take out scorpenes
- Shortfin is also compromised so nothing is there safe
- Soryu is better bcz Japan who is so close to China in territory protects Soryu as a state secret and nothing ever is leaked out of Japanese program

I mean the fantastic level of ecstasy seen in the media is beyond what Sunny Leone can provide with her efforts to please any man...

why we are not buying Kilos any more .. are they out of production ?

Not really.. The Kilo new version is called 636 and there was a proposal to buy 2 from Russian shipyard and make 10 in Reliance Defence deal for a total of a 12 sub deal. MOD did not consider this proposal. Chiefly the Kilo even though is a potent submarine is still an old design. The future generation submarines after kilo in teh world market comes with much better upgrades as well as from endurance perspective the AIP. On top, the value addition to our needs is negligible as Kilos are present with multiple operators so even a customised version wont help us much. The biggest factor perhaps comes from the fact that Reliance Defence quote was upwards of $400 Mn for individual submarine and talks of TOT transfer was there which are more added costs..Unfortunately the kilo upgrade package to this TOT thing is not at all winning any support from IN as well.

For IN they want a New Generation SSK in their hands of at least 15 in numbers to handle everything close to 2050-60 type of timeline.. Kilos will be far outdated by then..

 

[GuardianRED]

@Abingdonboy @Nilgiri @anant_s @Ankit Kumar 002 @GuardianRED @Vergennes @others


Its a bit strange that Australian newspaper and the reporter going all out to raise the panic factor and sensationalize the expose.. His assertion now is that there is some confusion in India as nothing is blacked out in the dox what he has.
View attachment 328714


essentially the jargons use for scorpenes by most media folks in Australia and people in India who follow them are
- its nude now post leaks
- computer simulations would lead to scorpene to shortfin sub systems linkage
- China will fully negate Indian potential submarine fleet
- China have already downloaded the material and will incorporate changes to their submarines to take out scorpenes
- Shortfin is also compromised so nothing is there safe
- Soryu is better bcz Japan who is so close to China in territory protects Soryu as a state secret and nothing ever is leaked out of Japanese program

I mean the fantastic level of ecstasy seen in the media is beyond what Sunny Leone can provide with her efforts to please any man...


Not really.. The Kilo new version is called 636 and there was a proposal to buy 2 from Russian shipyard and make 10 in Reliance Defence deal for a total of a 12 sub deal. MOD did not consider this proposal. Chiefly the Kilo even though is a potent submarine is still an old design. The future generation submarines after kilo in teh world market comes with much better upgrades as well as from endurance perspective the AIP. On top, the value addition to our needs is negligible as Kilos are present with multiple operators so even a customised version wont help us much. The biggest factor perhaps comes from the fact that Reliance Defence quote was upwards of $400 Mn for individual submarine and talks of TOT transfer was there.Unfortunately the kilo upgrade package to this TOT thing is not at all winning any support from IN as well.

For IN they want a New Generation SSK in their hands of at least 15 in numbers to handle everything close to 2050-60 type of timeline.. Kilos will be far outdated by then..

Didn't the leaked docs released by the AUS Newspaper? How would the India get the redacted version only? Someone would have posted that here yes?

Looks like someone is stroking the Flames cause it didn't get the desired effect the first time!

 

[Indrajit]

Its a bit strange that Australian newspaper and the reporter going all out to raise the panic factor and sensationalize the expose.. His assertion now is that there is some confusion in India as nothing is blacked out in the dox what he has.
View attachment 328714


essentially the jargons use for scorpenes by most media folks in Australia and people in India who follow them are
- its nude now post leaks
- computer simulations would lead to scorpene to shortfin sub systems linkage
- China will fully negate Indian potential submarine fleet
- China have already downloaded the material and will incorporate changes to their submarines to take out scorpenes
- Shortfin is also compromised so nothing is there safe
- Soryu is better bcz Japan who is so close to China in territory protects Soryu as a state secret and nothing ever is leaked out of Japanese program

I mean the fantastic level of ecstasy seen in the media is beyond what Sunny Leone can provide with her efforts to please any man...

Ya, we are both the laughing stock & the punching bag for every Tom, Dick & Harry.......We need more than just putting on a brave face here.....Btw, what the Australian reporter is doing is not strange at all, he is exploiting to the maximum his moment in the sun. He has the documents, we do not know what he has, he is going to tease this out.....This is a bit like Hillary Clinton's emails, every new day could bring new & unpleasant surprises.....the reporter controls the information flow....

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Didn't the leaked docs released by the AUS Newspaper? How would the India get the redacted version only? Someone would have posted that here yes?

no Aus newspaper released only redacted ones.. so all in public domain originating from Aus is redacted ones only.

Till now IN or anybody from GOI or even from Indian embassy in Austalia might not have contacted the reporter or the newspaper to check the non redacted versions. That is being taken care by DCNS (i guess) and we would be coordinating with DCNS on that...

also if the reporter have posted all the dox without redacting them then its leakage of military secret and a much bigger problem of potential lawsuits and public outcry

 

[ashok321]

From Shiv Aroor:

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/08/3-reasons-why-scorpeneleak-is-a-big-worry.html

3 Reasons Why #ScorpeneLeak Is A BIG Worry

Over the last 36 hours since the Scorpene Leak scandal broke, plenty has been said about the nature of the leak and its potential impact on Indian submarine operations and deployments. The Indian Navy has set up a top-level inquiry team to investigate the leak. India has also unequivocally put the onus on France, officially declaring that the leak for was from ‘foreign source’. In the mean time, government officials have sought to play down the impact of the leak, both officially and otherwise. Among the things being said: the leaked documents are technical manuals, are outdated, don’t constitute sensitive information and don’t pertain to India’s Scorpenes alone. An MoD official has also been quoted as saying there is no cause for worry. Handling an explosive situation where the Indian government has clearly been blindsided by the leak is one thing. But to brush the leak aside and recognise it for anything other than a devastating breach is to ensure that it happens again. Here now is a list of three reasons why the Scorpene Leak scandal is the most serious non-conflict cause for worry the Indian military has faced in a long time.

1. The fact that officially controlled/restricted documents of any kind pertaining to strategic platforms have found their way into the public domain itself is the principal cause for alarm. Documentation and literature running into many thousands of pages are restricted for several reasons — tactical, strategic, economic and commercial. A leak establishes that the system on the Scorpene programme has holes. Period. That hole is now the centerpiece of two separate investigations in India and France. That hole has no place in a $3 billion transaction that was underscored by an integrity pact. That hole has no place in an enormously complex programme that looks to shore up critical force levels in one of India’s most crucial combat arms.
2. Indian Navy submariners (both serving and retired) are unanimously alarmed. A serving Lieutenant Commander I spoke to, currently deployed on a Kilo-class boat, said, “We’ve seen some of the pages that are out there. But we don’t know what else is out there. Until we know, we have to assume the worst. That’s how the submarine service works.” Nothing truer. The Indian Navy itself, in its official statement today, perplexingly pointed to the redacted documents published by The Australian, as if the Australian newspaper/website is the source of the leak. The truth is, at this stage, the Indian Navy and government aren’t fully clear about what’s been leaked. It’s a metaphor that reflects submarine operations perfectly: what isn’t known could sink you.
3. But there’s something much more fundamental about the leak that isn’t being recognised as much as it probably should. A second submariner I spoke to illustrated the point in the gritty way submariners do. He provided me with the following scenario: “Imagine you’re sent into a large hall full of silent people and ordered to track down a particular person. You don’t know their name, what they look like, what they sound like. Now imagine being sent into that same room with a photograph of the person, a voice sample. How much sooner would you find the person?” He admits that’s a simplistic example, but he says it conveys a very fundamental message about submarine operations. In a world of darkness and silence, the smallest glimmer of light or sound is actionable data, information that helps decisions, speeds up processes, helps evasion and tracking. 22,000 pages that reportedly cover everything from the Scorpene’s vulnerabilities to its frequencies to its acoustic profiles sounds like a “nightmare” in the submariner’s words. I asked him to list the possible nature of data compromised in the leak. His list: propulsion and cavitation data, acoustics at ultra-slow speed, combat system acoustics, drive turbine sound profile, shifting sonar profile during rapid dive, frequencies at snorkling and shallow depth, acoustic dynamics shift between shallow stationary float and snorkeling depth. Conversations in media and within the Navy wonder if technical manuals and specifications of submarine platforms really provide any fodder to adversaries. I quote, once again, a submariner: “We don’t know what’s out there. And, yes.”

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Ya, we are both the laughing stock & the punching bag for every Tom, Dick & Harry.......We need more than just putting on a brave face here.....Btw, what the Australian reporter is doing is not strange at all, he is exploiting to the maximum his moment in the sun. He has the documents, we do not know what he has, he is going to tease this out.....This is a bit like Hillary Clinton's emails, every new day could bring new & unpleasant surprises.....the reporter controls the information flow....

• Exploiting the maximum
• moment in the sun
• sensationalism
• teasing
• surprises
• trying to be more popular
• more relevant

yup here it is

https://twitter.com/x/status/768802428405768192

I am sure DCNS is going to take this guy to cleaners for some legal loophole someplace..