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Plan to restore Pakistan - Lets have suggestions to restore our pride

Is a middle class a prerequiste for Democracy? Originally Democracy was rule of the tribes - I may be wrong, but research from several sources should clear up that.

Violent revolution? taking peoples private property? And this to improve Pakistan? That's a tough sell - so you say you want a revolution..

of course in clear terms a social revolution & not stealing but restigate of property extra property private what elase ? i mean for pakistan to prosper one cannot allow one famly to own 2 to 3 houses or a house on 16 acre land in land of only 340,403 sq mile and a population of 170 millions people on one hand we have people from the middle class who are struggling day and night but finding it hard to cope with the rent of a 3 bedroom house think about the poors what they are going through social and economic just are the two one of the two most important piller's needed for progress and oh yes with out a doubt middle class a prerequiste for Democracy.

simple as that
 
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Nah, nah - no stealing peoples property, just because we may not like that some are so rich and most so poor is not an excuse to engage in theft -- and that's what it is, it's theft.

Generally, I think we should pay more attention to the notion of EVOLUTION - when you know what you want, you work towards it, it does not just suddenly happen -- you want members of Majlis who are legal experts and do not work to get these elected, why blame the rich for being successful where we are not?

Look guys, soon graduation will not be a requirement to be in Majlis - "people friendly democratic" majlis will ensure that in the guise of democracy the majlis is stacked with duffers - Majlis's primary mission is to craft laws -- and the Judiciary has taken over that role, instead of following the law, they now make the law.

And most Pakistanis are apathetic about it.

Even worst the system of local govt is now dissolved by these so callled "democrats"

Back to EVOLUTION -- we work towards what we want, it worked for you, it worked for me, it will work for Pakistan, First decide what you want, then run it through the filter of ethics and morality, then run it through the filter of political reality - - then put it into action -- this is what is done the world over - in Pakistan we undo what the previous govt has achieved and so it seems we have been standing still.


I think Muse got the target just right this time.
I agree that we should be looking for evolution, and institutional
improvement.
We should be looking towards revising the ESTA code, and rules of business 1977/79.
We should be looking towards revising the current setup of bureaucracy, and replacing it with some thing that words best in our budget.

I think the system at present is harmed beyond repair.
and the system does not contain any self corrective measures.

But I would also like to add here, and agree with the rest of the gents
that it will take a revolution of some sorts and shape to get this done.

It may not be violent, and it may not be chaotic.

A revolution can be very peaceful and very controlled and well planned.

What do you guys think of that ?

:pakistan:
 
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Only way to remove these feudels is to simply get rid of them, if you know what i mean. Thats why someone has to get their hands dirty. There is no way you can change the state without doing that. We have to do it like they do in rang de basanti:azn:
 
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These feudals inherited their land -- much of it before independence under dubious circumstances -- and do not obey the laws of normal industry. They do not pay fair taxes; their employees (slaves) do not have adequate compensation or living/working conditions; their employees (slaves) are not free to change employers (masters) or to lodge any kind of complaint.

This is institutionalized slavery


There is truth in what you say, but lets see if we can reframe :

We want the fuedals to pay taxes, right? Maljis can impose those taxes - and yes, maljis members are themselves feudals but they need your votes - you can organize conscious raising, sensitizing campaign to show how these fuedals not paying taxes hurts the nation.

And as for the "slaves" - well, they are "serfs" not slaves.

But allow me suggest the following: Why do feudals do what they do, why are there feudals?

Answer: Because it pays -- People are Rational, they pursue those alternatives that brings the greatest reward for the least effort -- now if the state had a industrial/business policy that rewarded entrepreneurial activity, industrial scale business -- guess what what, the feudals would be a lot less important, to the point that they would either be involved in industrial scale farming or go for some other activity that has greater rewards.

Look at Salman's suggestions - Salman, can you please give us greater details about the items you suggest we may review and what their impication is?
 
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We already know what happens in rallies.People destroy public property.You know in Pakistan revolution this will happen.
Thugs will loot all property from rich people..not all rich people earned from illegal methods.People will destroy every damn thing in country..infrastructure will be in ruins and there you have your revolution.Revolution wont fix a damn thing.Pakistanis mindset has to chance.Leadership can't do much if people give more importance to political parties then their very own country.
 
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We want the fuedals to pay taxes, right? Maljis can impose those taxes

Tax holiday for feudal lords | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

Shaukat Tarin's views about the agricultural tax which he expressed soon after his induction into the administration sent alarming bells ringing among the farmers' lobby. The opposition to the idea started from Punjab where in November last year, the assembly passed a near unanimous resolution against the agricultural tax tabled by a PML-N MPA. Law Minister Rana Aftab and PPP's Raja Riaz infact vied with each other in the resolution's support. Losing self-control, PPP's Nazim Hussain Shah said he was willing to go to jail or face gallows while opposing farm tax.
Later in May 2009, the Chamber of Agriculture and Sindh Abadgar Board rejected the tax and termed it illegal and unconstitutional. The leaders of the two major representative organisations of Sindh growers said that the farmer were already heavily taxed.
Similarly the resolution passed by the Punjab Assembly claimed that farmers paid a number of direct and indirect taxes and it was therefore injustice to levy farm tax on them. The facts however tell a different story.
The current share of agriculture in GDP stands at 20.9 percent but its share in taxes is only 1.2 percent. Compared to it the share of the manufacturing sector in GDP is 18.9 percent while its contribution to taxes is 50.8 percent The share of agriculture in taxes is derived not from farm income but from land tax levied by the provinces. Even this meagre contribution is on continuous decline. In 2000-01 tax collection from Sindh Agricultural sector was Rs 444.77 million. In 2001-02 it fell to Rs 397million and in 2002-03 to Rs 251million. Sindh landowners had paid only Rs 7 million till November 2008 while the government target was Rs 336 million.
With the big landlords enjoying a tax holiday, and the government unwilling to cut down its expenses, the common man is being fed on empty promises, the emptiest of them being the development budget described as the highest ever. We are told that a part of it would come from the commitments made by the foreign donors. This is risky as the pledges made are rarely fully met, as the example of the commitments made to the earthquake victims would bear out.
While the big landlords earn extra billions on account of the rise in wheat procurement prices, the common man is to be the main suffer. The looming massive cut in power subsidy would hit him hard. So would the replacement of petroleum development levy with carbon tax which would increase the price of oil for end consumers. Inflation that hits the poor hardest may further go up. The budget safeguards the interests of a rapacious ruling elite while it provides little succour to the poor.

- and yes, maljis members are themselves feudals but they need your votes - you can organize conscious raising, sensitizing campaign to show how these fuedals not paying taxes hurts the nation.

Catch-22. There is no way feudal interests can be outvoted. They keep their serfs poor, uneducated and in servitude. These farmers will vote exactly as they are told -- not because they are stupid, but because the police and everybody else is in the feudals' pay.
 
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We already know what happens in rallies.People destroy public property.You know in Pakistan revolution this will happen.
Thugs will loot all property from rich people..not all rich people earned from illegal methods.People will destroy every damn thing in country..infrastructure will be in ruins and there you have your revolution.Revolution wont fix a damn thing.Pakistanis mindset has to chance.Leadership can't do much if people give more importance to political parties then their very own country.


One thing that we can not afford at this time, is any type of anarchy.
IF there is any turbulence, the indians, americans, and jews are waiting to take advantage of the situation.

What is required for people like yourself to take charge and organize the movement.

Our local politicians and leaders rule by spreading anger and anarchy,
it is very easy to arouse the masses and then get the reaction of their will from them.

If we can organize, plan a movement I think we can have the same effect.

What do you guys think about that ?
:pakistan:
 
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One thing that we can not afford at this time, is any type of anarchy.
IF there is any turbulence, the indians, americans, and jews are waiting to take advantage of the situation.

What is required for people like yourself to take charge and organize the movement.

Our local politicians and leaders rule by spreading anger and anarchy,
it is very easy to arouse the masses and then get the reaction of their will from them.

If we can organize, plan a movement I think we can have the same effect.

What do you guys think about that ?
:pakistan:

Well, I don't know of any decent politicians at the moment.

Maybe Imran Khan? I don't agree with everything he says, but he seems the least objectionable of the lot.

I don't know if he would have the guts or support to take on the feudals.
 
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Well, I don't know of any decent politicians at the moment.

Maybe Imran Khan? I don't agree with everything he says, but he seems the least objectionable of the lot.

I don't know if he would have the guts or support to take on the feudals.


Nopes none of those .....
If some of them who are clean join in voluntarily that is ok

but i dream of US politicians, we the leaders and we the Mujahid of Pakistan.

The assemblies, and the generals and the politicians had their time and way,,, I think its the time for the youth of Pakistan to take charge.


:pakistan:
 
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Nopes none of those .....
If some of them who are clean join in voluntarily that is ok

but i dream of US politicians, we the leaders and we the Mujahid of Pakistan.

The assemblies, and the generals and the politicians had their time and way,,, I think its the time for the youth of Pakistan to take charge.


:pakistan:

The youth have a very important role to play with grassroots information and voter registration programs.

But there needs to be a charismatic leader who can rally the masses and provide legitimacy to the movement.

A combination of Ayub Khan, Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto and Imran Khan.
 
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Ischaudry

I believe it is unity and reviving the true spirit of a Momin.

Amen brother/sister! But you also know that the Thaikedars of Islam are also waiting to hijack that bit of business -- that's how we got into the mess we are in now.

Catch-22. There is no way feudal interests can be outvoted.

In that case we have lost before we ever got started.

We blame extremists for a good bit of our problems, we blame politicians - but we must also acknowledge that these people have been successful because they have worked hard to bring society into acceptance of their ideas - they have built from the neighborhood up, if we are not willing to do that, lets not waste our time and effort, because that's what it takes -- there is no majic pill, no short cut.

In advertising there is a principle, a "tipping point", that suggests that once you can get 3% (threee percent) of the population to accept a proposition and to publically forward their position, you will begin to see a wave of sorts that carries the proposition forward - the same was true when Musharraf came to power, the same was true when the so called black coats carried the day.

Many in Pakistan imagine democracy as a ideal, a kind of religion that must be "perfect" - it's nothing of the kind, it's merely a way to organize so that transfer of power is bloodless, that is all it is; "Of the peoople, for the people and by the people" is rhetoric, not organizing principle, after all, what exactly does it mean?? Representative governance reflected in a elected Majlis of LAWMAKERS, by whatever other names and labels is found in a variety of countries we would not necessarily call "democratic" -- so, what is it that we seek for Pakistan??

It is not so called Westminster democracy, or a French 5th republic style or a US two party style or whatever, what we want is effective, responsive, accountable governance -- as Dung Shiao Ping has said, "what do we care whether the cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice" or in our terms, "you care about eating mango or where the seed came from".

Our experience of goverenance is that it is entirely unresponsive and unaccountable, at least to us - but this is not the entirety of the situation, Pakistani governance is responsive and is accountable to those elements of society that can effect it - once again, Pakistani governance is responsive and accountable to those elements of society that can effect it.

All Pakistani readers should make it a point to read Dr. Mancur Olsen's "The logic of Collective Action" and "Peace and Prosperity: Outgrowing Communist and Capitalist Ditatorship" --- int he first book, you may arrive at some understanding as to why large groups nearly always FAIL and why small groups, "minorities" nearly always SUCCEED - in the second book you may arrive at a deeper understanding of state formation, the historic role of taxation and freedom understood as economic freedom. These are not challeneging reads, please read them.

You may also then, conclude that as in any endeavor, leadership, is key, even as you begin at the neighborhood level, even Lt.Generals begin sometimes as privates or LT's. The old truths about "Qatra Qatra Darya..." are just that, truths.
 
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You, I and most every other who writes on this forum or who has a strong opinion about this situation does not live in rural areas - as a matter of fact, Pakistan is the most urbanized country in that part of the world - in other words, it is the urban population that is most concerned about the situation, it is the urban population that is in the forefront opposing inequity and injustice --- which is why feudals hate urban populations, because urban populations see no need for feudals, they don't see why there should be any feudals.
 
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Muse is hitting a home run here !

Agreed that

1. We have to start from grass root level up, really it will be college to college up.
2. It will take it's own time, dynamics can not be accelerated.
3. No need to worry about leaders, leader will come when we get together.

I will suggest that we study the spread of Islam.
For many many Mecca years Islam did not spread too quickly.
It will only a small group of people, who were dedicated to the cause
Those group of small people became the core group in Madina

Once the critical mass was achieved there, the tipping point was achieved
and after that it was an avalanche effect.

We should take the same project plan blue print, and form a core group.

Is this a good suggestion ?

can we invite more people to contribute to this thread ?

What more suggestions can we have to improve our approach ?
 
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