A plan to destroy Pakistan, we must have a counterplan

[Jango]

Relocation had already happened in Balochistan. Pashtuns might outnumber Balochis living in Balochistan. No need to aggravate situation.

To placate Balochistan, the following steps can be taken by Pakistan government:

1. Build cost-effective apartment developments near industrial centers in Gwadar or with road access to them. These apartments can be given to the poorest of Balochis for free or at least for certain number of years until they earn enough income. China did something similar for its citizens that were dislocated due to national projects like dams, etc.
2. Set up industrial centers in populated areas along with vocational training schools. These schools can train people in manufacturing, mechanics skills, clerical work, etc.
3. Primary schools are set up to impart education, geared towards patriotism towards their country.
4. Some Baloch can be given loans & grants to start businesses, along with business management education to ensure they don't become typical Pakistani business suffering from nepotism.

Completely agree with all of this.

Unless and until you introduce human and socioeconomic development, you are just running in circles.

Steps #2 and #3 have already been implemented in Waziristan after the army operation and has been pretty successful. You can see WSK's Mahaaz documentary.

This is where it all breaks down though.

The development efforts have to be civilian led.

The efforts in Waziristan and ex-FATA are also now either stagnant, or breaking down (@PanzerKiel or someone else with more recent experience of the area or projects can better comment though). It is not the job of the army to create a school and introduce development work there or uplift the people.

This isn't the ISAF in Afghanistan, it is the Pakistan Army in Waziristan or wherever or Balochistan, all integral parts of the country with a functioning provincial government. The PA can clear the area, hold it, sanitize it, and maintain a presence, but it cannot do local development. Apart from the usual fauj paisa kha jati hai, div funds being used for schools and stationary items or whatnot, the major issue is the sustainability of the project. If the army continues to run these matters, then the area effectively becomes under army control with no civilian accountability or people representation.

You are still stuck with the army dealing with the tribal elders or the Maliks. The sooner you introduce proper governance to the areas, the better.

This is not to say that the army does this voluntarily. Sure, army does want to be head honcho and maintain influence, but it is in equal part fault of the civilian government for shying away from it's responsibilities. Not to make this political, but the PTI government was the only one which made substantial progress in asserting civilian oversight into ex-FATA. As soon as PDM came, all the funds to KP government were stopped and everything screeched to a halt. Do not know the current status.

In Balochistan, the sardars are happy with their cut of the pie, they get the royalties and the bhatta money and commission, are allowed to do as they please by the FC, and in return they don't give a damn what happens. The CM of Balochistan only rules over Quetta, the rest is a hodge podge of either ISI or FC or Army. The AC's and DC's in the smaller districts treat a posting there as a sight seeing trip rather than anything to do with public service. Gwadar is totally under army control. You cannot have sustainable progress within this framework. And no one is interested in changing the status quo.

I do not mean this post to be an army bashing one, I do plenty of that in political threads, but this is a genuine issue which needs to be objectively resolved for almost half of the country's land mass. I could extend this to GB and AJK as well, although to a lesser extent.

 

[HerbertPervert]

The development efforts have to be civilian led.

The efforts in Waziristan and ex-FATA are also now either stagnant, or breaking down (@PanzerKiel or someone else with more recent experience of the area or projects can better comment though). It is not the job of the army to create a school and introduce development work there or uplift the people.

This isn't the ISAF in Afghanistan, it is the Pakistan Army in Waziristan or wherever or Balochistan, all integral parts of the country with a functioning provincial government. The PA can clear the area, hold it, sanitize it, and maintain a presence, but it cannot do local development. Apart from the usual fauj paisa kha jati hai, div funds being used for schools and stationary items or whatnot, the major issue is the sustainability of the project. If the army continues to run these matters, then the area effectively becomes under army control with no civilian accountability or people representation.

You are still stuck with the army dealing with the tribal elders or the Maliks. The sooner you introduce proper governance to the areas, the better.

Agree with what you are saying. It has to be civilian led. However, FATA was only recently integrated with KPK, which has struggled to mainstream the area quickly enough and with a limited budget. It needs a bit more time & money. Recall Imran Khan speeches on 3G phone network in ex-FATA.

Also, you already know that the removal of Imran Khan & PTI has aggravated Pashtuns who for two or three decades had no stake in governing Pakistan. PTM propaganda resonates a lot more now with the disillusioned.

Recall the strong separatist sentiments in Sindh after the assassination of Benazir Bhutto? Even now, establishment has given a free hand to PPP in Sindh at the expense of Karachi because PPP-Zardari is a counter to Sindh separatist movements.

Pakistan is a ticking time-bomb and the recent political turmoil has shaved a lot if time off.

 

[epebble]

unrealistic ? I don't think so, if you want a better Pakistan or rather a Pakistan you have to pull resources to do so, Start with Tribal Areas... take every mehsud or whatever tribe and put them in camps, educate them there, every Pashtoon should be transported back to KPK region and those camps, these people must be forced to drop their customs and culture, massive curfews must be imposed and if necessary their children should be taken and put them in Govt run schools (of course our govt schools ka tu Allah hi hafiz hai). But yes the idea is cruel and impossible but if done correctly Pakistan will see ever lasting peace, but without controlling the Pashtoons and Baloch, Pakistan has no future cause these people are not compatible with civilized societies, even in UAE specially in Al-Ain Area, Pashtoons/Afghans have started their Gunda gardi and Barbarism.

Why stop at these halfhearted attempts? Utter some magic incantations (you can learn them at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry) and replace 240 million Pakistanis with Japanese. Presto Chango, you have a great country.

 

[Jango]

Agree with what you are saying. It has to be civilian led. However, FATA was only recently integrated with KPK, which has struggled to mainstream the area quickly enough and with a limited budget. It needs a bit more time & money. Recall Imran Khan speeches on 3G phone network in ex-FATA.

Agreed. That does give some hope that the realization is there somewhere in the corridors of power, but the people who had that realization are now evading arrests.

Also, you already know that the removal of Imran Khan & PTI has aggravated Pashtuns who for two or three decades had no stake in governing Pakistan. PTM propaganda resonates a lot more now with the disillusioned.

Again agreed. For the first time perhaps Pukhtoons actually thought they had a say in how the country should be run rather than being subservient to a Punjabi ruler. This is the opinion of many educated pashtoons I talked to.

Recall the strong separatist sentiments in Sindh after the assassination of Benazir Bhutto? Even now, establishment has given a free hand to PPP in Sindh at the expense of Karachi because PPP-Zardari is a counter to Sindh separatist movements.

Pakistan is a ticking time-bomb and the recent political turmoil has shaved a lot if time off.

Our short conversation shows why the political fiasco in the country of the past 16 months or whatever cannot be seen in isolation as PTI bad, Bajwa Immi fight, Immi cocaine, or whatever. It has much much wider repercussions.

We have devolved the running of a whole goddamn country with 250 million people into a fight of egos as if some edgy teenagers are squabbling. Just look at the level of press conferences and talks which are routinely done, just look at what Ata Tarar said the other day. @akramishaqkhan , this reminds me of your comment regarding the level of conversation that takes place in our power circles.

 

[TheSolution]

Relocation had already happened in Balochistan. Pashtuns might outnumber Balochis living in Balochistan. No need to aggravate situation.

To placate Balochistan, the following steps can be taken by Pakistan government:

1. Build cost-effective apartment developments near industrial centers in Gwadar or with road access to them. These apartments can be given to the poorest of Balochis for free or at least for certain number of years until they earn enough income. China did something similar for its citizens that were dislocated due to national projects like dams, etc.
2. Set up industrial centers in populated areas along with vocational training schools. These schools can train people in manufacturing, mechanics skills, clerical work, etc.
3. Primary schools are set up to impart education, geared towards patriotism towards their country.
4. Some Baloch can be given loans & grants to start businesses, along with business management education to ensure they don't become typical Pakistani business suffering from nepotism.

Steps #2 and #3 have already been implemented in Waziristan after the army operation and have been pretty successful. You can see WSK's Mahaaz documentary.

As for Pashtuns, leave them alone as they are just fine with PTI. You won't see Pashtuns having independence sentiments like you do in Sindh & Balochistan. Neither are Pashtuns fighting for independence like Bengalis did.

Give the provinces their rights as per the Constitution and ensure they all have a stake in governing Pakistan. You can't have statements like "whoever wins Punjab wins Pakistan", ignore the socio-economic development of other provinces and then expect a stable country, lol.

Everything you wrote is already going on, especially the economic suggestions you gave.

But some of BLAs support is from people who don't care how much development is given and want to secede regardless, so that requires my solution of dilution. Which I think has been done with small amounts of Afghan refugees.

But a stable Balochistan is good for Pakistan's economy definitely

 

[Mirzali Khan]

As for Pashtuns, leave them alone as they are just fine with PTI.

Can confirm

You won't see Pashtuns having independence sentiments like you do in Sindh & Balochistan.

Kinda false. There's a large amount of resentment following what has happened to PTI.

Again agreed. For the first time perhaps Pukhtoons actually thought they had a say in how the country should be run rather than being subservient to a Punjabi ruler. This is the opinion of many educated pashtoons I talked to.

PTI was able to connect North Balochistan and FATA to the mainstream. Qurat-ul-Aain Wazir became a female office holder in Pashtunkhwa, which was UNTHINKABLE 10 years ago.

Many Pashtun nationalist parties are seen as puppets and sell outs now. Ali Wazir was released from jail just to kick Imran Khan out.

However, FATA was only recently integrated with KPK, which has struggled to mainstream the area quickly enough and with a limited budget.

Beauty of PTI.

 

[TheSolution]

Removing Imran Khan was the most low IQ move the establishment could have made, likely on orders from their slave master America unfortunately

Literally should've kept him in power for as long as his age allowed him, he had decent policy (ignoring security here) and was integrating parts of the country into the mainstream

 

[Mirzali Khan]

It needs a bit more time & money. Recall Imran Khan speeches on 3G phone network in ex-FATA.

All we need is a plan. We have PTI who has the WILL to make needed changes, but what I will never understand about Pakistan is why does it hamper its own progress?

Other countries have had big issues, crises, and corruption like Egypt and Algeria. Both of those countries have their armies actively involved in their politics. Yet they still progress, do development projects, and make moves geopolitically with regards to Russia-Ukraine.

 

[HerbertPervert]

Our short conversation shows why the political fiasco in the country of the past 16 months or whatever cannot be seen in isolation as PTI bad, Bajwa Immi fight, Immi cocaine, or whatever. It has much much wider repercussions.

We have devolved the running of a whole goddamn country with 250 million people into a fight of egos as if some edgy teenagers are squabbling. Just look at the level of press conferences and talks which are routinely done, just look at what Ata Tarar said the other day. @akramishaqkhan , this reminds me of your comment regarding the level of conversation that takes place in our power circles.

While the future of Pakistan is grim, I still find a good laugh at the thought that an entire country's economic future, it's social fabric, the cohesion between its ethnic groups and the chaos that would ensue if not preserved, everything is thrown aside just because the ego of one man.

And the country has been sacrificed for one man's ego, again and again. The most significant consequence was Bangladesh, but the 70,000 dead and irreparable economic damage done by WoT was another, and now this. I guess the same thing could be said of North Korea where one man's ego risked a nuclear war. Or another African leader's hold on power created the 100 trillion dollar bill.

There always must be checks & balances to power. Without this, chaos follows. Had the establishment been truly protecting Pakistan, a COAS would have never been able to sacrifice the country for his ego. There would have been internal mechanisms in place to ensure he would have been removed if found unfit.

Instead we now see the establishment is literally one man, the COAS. Had the establishment been more like the American or Russian establishment, one man would have never wielded as much power as the COAS. The COAS position is one that must disappear, it must never be allowed to exist again with this much power if the country is to have any future.

Everything you wrote is already going on, especially the economic suggestions you gave.

But some of BLAs support is from people who don't care how much development is given and want to secede regardless, so that requires my solution of dilution. Which I think has been done with small amounts of Afghan refugees.

But a stable Balochistan is good for Pakistan's economy definitely

There will always be hardliners too stubborn to accept. The goal is to ensure the separatist hardliners remain a minority and the rest of the people are too fat from economic prosperity to ally with them.

AFAIK none of the Baloch received free housing. They feel their land is being stolen and given to developers and to an extent, they are right. Why not give them free housing? Impart vocational training on them? Building roads and airports in an impoverished region will not bring economic benefit to any of the people if they can't even use them.

 

[Mav3rick]

This man has guts of steel.

The men in uniform literally think that civilians are stupid and hence everything falls upon their shoulders. The sheer number of civilian positions being held by serving or retired military officers is mind boggling. And although I have seen some of them to work harder and with more dedication than any civilian, their training eventually leads to the downfall as they are masters of 1 trade and jack of none but are led to believe that they are masters of all trades.

I can assure people here that intention of the organization is not evil; it is their misled belief that they have to save Pakistan from everything and everyone.

 

[Goritoes]

Why stop at these halfhearted attempts? Utter some magic incantations (you can learn them at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry) and replace 240 million Pakistanis with Japanese. Presto Chango, you have a great country.

Lets replace Pashtoon/Baloch with any other human beings who are not violent, replace Sindhi's with Bengali's/Biharis, Punjabis/Saraiki's can be worked on it will be hard but with some dedication you can teach them how to be civilized. Do all that and then Pakistan will have better future, and yes give the Administration of Pakistan to Urdu speaking community.

 

[Cash GK]

Dr Baqar Hasnain December 10, 2022


The Elite have a plan to destroy Pakistan. They’ve had it for decades. And it’s been working. We must have a counterplan — a plan to save our homeland — for our children and our future generations.

“All hope abandon, ye who enter here,” reads an inscription on the Gate of Hell in Dante’s Divine Comedy. For us, this may be the darkest hour in our nation’s history. Many of us have abandoned hope, but… what if the appointment of Gen Asim Munir as Pakistan’s new Army Chief is the silver lining that we had been searching for? What if this is the beginning of the end of dynastic and fascist politics and hybrid governments? What if this is the time to look beyond Zardari, Sharif and Khan? But how?

New zia and aik aur truk ki bati...

 

[TigerOfMysore]

Agreed. That does give some hope that the realization is there somewhere in the corridors of power, but the people who had that realization are now evading arrests.



Again agreed. For the first time perhaps Pukhtoons actually thought they had a say in how the country should be run rather than being subservient to a Punjabi ruler. This is the opinion of many educated pashtoons I talked to.



Our short conversation shows why the political fiasco in the country of the past 16 months or whatever cannot be seen in isolation as PTI bad, Bajwa Immi fight, Immi cocaine, or whatever. It has much much wider repercussions.

We have devolved the running of a whole goddamn country with 250 million people into a fight of egos as if some edgy teenagers are squabbling. Just look at the level of press conferences and talks which are routinely done, just look at what Ata Tarar said the other day. @akramishaqkhan , this reminds me of your comment regarding the level of conversation that takes place in our power circles.

9 years ago I ran in the opposite direction from things I cannot write here openly.

This was in an area where supposedly we have the best minds and "Country loving people". The best of the best. All I saw was BS. What a shambles of execution, critical thinking, and imagination. This cursory thinking and planning permeates everywhere. It is in some measure driven by limited interest, in some measure by lack of capacity and planning, by a lack of intellect, by a lack of education and experience, by a lack of desire, by a lack of focus, by a lack of purposeful disregard of ones occupation and tradecraft, by focus of only managing up not down, by corruption, by insidious and willful purposes and by fear. You can pick the reasons they exist.

All you are left with is an environment where people with the minds and capabilities become disappointed and frustrated.
When the head of a powerful agency brings in questionable people to develop a "system", that is identified as swiss cheese. The identification and the people who found these issues are given the nice "shut up" call, and things proceed because the big man wants it. And then years later those very reasons lead to one of the largest penetrations in this agency's history, and not a single person (especially the agency head) is taken to account even in the slightest (those questionable people are black-balled for a limited time and afforded a clean exit out of country) - then you know you have a culture of Yes men who will sink the ship called Pakistan. In situations like that you run in the opposite direction.

 

[Clutch]

.,.,.
View attachment 952814

I didn't know pigs could fly?????

 

[One_Nation]

Every bureaucrat and Army officer must be put on exit list, they should not be allowed to send their kids for foreign education neither they can go outside for medical treatment.

Same rule should apply to mna, mpas and senators etc.