Pakistan Naval Aviation - Updated

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

How far away is the T-629 and T-625? I think Pak military is in a bit of a hurry. AW-139 is a good idea still,don't think Leonardo would make a hassle about fitting out. They are desperate to make a sale.

Re: AW139 I think Leonardo would have to do the conversion if the PN asks for it.

Re: T629 and T625. I'd rather we wait for those instead of rushing into costly off-the-shelf purchases. We know the Turks are offering an element of ToT and offsets, so there's an economic gain (esp. if we channel the offset juice to the right private sector actors). Is the 'wait' risky? Yes, but even if we order new helicopters today, we will not get them in a day. So, the 'urgency' argument doesn't stand, unless we're talking 2nd-hand UH-60s, which we know the PN had been interested in... Heck, I wouldn't mind any spare ex-PLAN Z-9ECs either.

 

[Armchair]

Re: AW139 I think Leonardo would have to do the conversion if the PN asks for it.

Re: T629 and T625. I'd rather we wait for those instead of rushing into costly off-the-shelf purchases. We know the Turks are offering an element of ToT and offsets, so there's an economic gain (esp. if we channel the offset juice to the right private sector actors). Is the 'wait' risky? Yes, but even if we order new helicopters today, we will not get them in a day. So, the 'urgency' argument doesn't stand, unless we're talking 2nd-hand UH-60s, which we know the PN had been interested in... Heck, I wouldn't mind any spare ex-PLAN Z-9ECs either.

Chinese gear doesn't last very well. So buying second hand chinese helicopters is a least favorable move. Though, PN is in a situation where it hasn't figured out what its prinicipal ship-borne helicopter should be. This is actually a bad state of affairs and will be costly in a war. The closest thing is the Z-9s but they are unsatisfactory. Whatever decision is made, needs to be made reasonably fast (unlikely to meet a Turkish T-625 timeline).

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Chinese gear doesn't last very well. So buying second hand chinese helicopters is a least favorable move. Though, PN is in a situation where it hasn't figured out what its prinicipal ship-borne helicopter should be. This is actually a bad state of affairs and will be costly in a war. The closest thing is the Z-9s but they are unsatisfactory. Whatever decision is made, needs to be made reasonably fast (unlikely to meet a Turkish T-625 timeline).

If it's a temporary/stop-gap need, scrounging for surplus Z-9ECs may not be a bad idea. I'd rather go that route (as we can use the existing support overhead for those helicopters) if it means buying just enough time for a navalized T-625 to come online. But my instinct tells me the PN could simply order AW159s in small batches.

 

[Yasser76]

If it's a temporary/stop-gap need, scrounging for surplus Z-9ECs may not be a bad idea. I'd rather go that route (as we can use the existing support overhead for those helicopters) if it means buying just enough time for a navalized T-625 to come online. But my instinct tells me the PN could simply order AW159s in small batches.

Certainly I imagine if we are going for the Turkish equipment fit on the Yarmooks and Jinnahs then a western type like AW159 makes sense and maybe more Z-9s for the Chinese frigates. Unsure, what I do know is that very soon PN will be in the position where we will have more ships then seaborne choppers. Which is an insane position to end up in. Sea Kings old and too heavy so only 6 Z-9s and soon 16 odd major surface vessels. Even if we order brand new choppers now we will need to wait 2 years

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Certainly I imagine if we are going for the Turkish equipment fit on the Yarmooks and Jinnahs then a western type like AW159 makes sense and maybe more Z-9s for the Chinese frigates. Unsure, what I do know is that very soon PN will be in the position where we will have more ships then seaborne choppers. Which is an insane position to end up in. Sea Kings old and too heavy so only 6 Z-9s and soon 16 odd major surface vessels. Even if we order brand new choppers now we will need to wait 2 years

It makes me wonder...what if the PN's still gunning for ex-US S-70s?

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

Certainly I imagine if we are going for the Turkish equipment fit on the Yarmooks and Jinnahs then a western type like AW159 makes sense and maybe more Z-9s for the Chinese frigates. Unsure, what I do know is that very soon PN will be in the position where we will have more ships then seaborne choppers. Which is an insane position to end up in. Sea Kings old and too heavy so only 6 Z-9s and soon 16 odd major surface vessels. Even if we order brand new choppers now we will need to wait 2 years

Even the sea Although Turkey is much higher budget, state made ready in production and land forces, and found much in the internal security forces BlackHawk / Seahawk use, and so spare parts problem and minimize the cost of education. Why is Pakistan looking so different alternative helo because the power of the Z-9 is not enough?

 

[Yasser76]

It makes me wonder...what if the PN's still gunning for ex-US S-70s?

Yes, it would make sense, Turkey has much experiance in the helicopter and I imagine that all it's sub systems we are buying have been integrated into it.

Even the sea Although Turkey is much higher budget, state made ready in production and land forces, and found much in the internal security forces BlackHawk / Seahawk use, and so spare parts problem and minimize the cost of education. Why is Pakistan looking so different alternative helo because the power of the Z-9 is not enough?

Agree, Turkey can provide much training and logistics help on this chopper and spares. Its systems we are buying are integrated into it. The fact India has purchased it may also mean US would be more inclined to offer it to us too as balance in region not effected I think simple matter is cost.

 

[nomi007]

Cockpit of an Atlantic

 

[air marshal]

https://falcons.pk/photo/Westland-WS-61-Sea-King-MK45/2905

 

[air marshal]

https://falcons.pk/photo/Westland-WS-61-Sea-King-MK45/2915

 

[Incog_nito]

PN should get some surplus Sea Kings for MSA.

Moreover, coast guards which I guess is under Pak Army's control should look into these helicopters as there role is increasing day by day from East to West.

 

[Yasser76]

PN should get some surplus Sea Kings for MSA.

Moreover, coast guards which I guess is under Pak Army's control should look into these helicopters as there role is increasing day by day from East to West.

Tough issue, everyone is replacing these now, I could be wrong but could be soon only India and Pak are left as operators of these helicopter. Maybe Egypt too. Spares will soon become an issue, so worth buying older airframes for spares (like we did from UK recently) but world and technology has moved on. Zarb surface to surface missile and our coastal radar can now do the job that required a Sea King with Exocet. For sub hunting it is too short ranged when based on coast. Most useful job now is probably as SSGN transport for Creek areas.

 

[Incog_nito]

Then PN should evaluate EH-101s / NH-90 to replace Sea Kings and get them in good numbers to support PN & MSA and maybe some for Coast Guards.

 

[Incog_nito]

Or Sea Kings should be upgraded and transfer to Coast Guards for SAR operations.

But honestly, I think AW-101 / NH-90 are the ones that can fill the gap in PN roles along with the AW-139s and AW109.

Even, I think PN doesn't love the Z-9C which can be sold to other operators.

 

[Yasser76]

Or Sea Kings should be upgraded and transfer to Coast Guards for SAR operations.

But honestly, I think AW-101 / NH-90 are the ones that can fill the gap in PN roles along with the AW-139s and AW109.

Even, I think PN doesn't love the Z-9C which can be sold to other operators.

Of course you are right but money is the issue