PAF & the ramifications of Rafale's sale to India

[Asian.Century]

For Pakistan which cannot be outgunned, this should alarm PAF. India tested k-77 which is new Russian missile with it's own aesa seeker and range much greater than our amraam. India also bought Barak-8 Israeli missiles.

British short range missile also ordered by IAF. They are even buying more su-30s for next coming aerial attack and plan. Pakistan must integrate pl-15 on at least block 2. they already tested couple of missiles.during Trump Khan meeting,imran Khan should ask Trump to provide either amraam c-7 or amraam d series or Amraam-X.we need new missiles for our f-16s and JF17s fleet from all over the world now.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

imran Khan should ask Trump to provide either amraam c-7

There is no free lunch,might have to pay a big strategic price to get American goodies!!

 

[ziaulislam]

There is no free lunch,might have to pay a big strategic price to get American goodies!!

You are already hosting the usa exist.
Just asking pompeo a simple waiver to buy second hand f16 shouldnt be that difficult provided we play our cards right.

 

[Trailer23]

You are already hosting the usa exist.
Just asking pompeo a simple waiver to buy second hand f16 shouldnt be that difficult provided we play our cards right.

One would've thought that after signing the Afghan Peace Deal - that might of happened.

 

[ziaulislam]

One would've thought that after signing the Afghan Peace Deal - that might of happened.

It might have...we dont know..actual deal will come to light only once finalized

 

[CriticalThought]

Recently, Pakistan's top serving and retired military officers have given blunt statements, trivializing the threat posed by India's newly acquired Rafale jets. For the reader's benefit, we summarize these statements here:

https://www.dawn.com/news/1574208/5-rafales-or-500-pakistan-is-absolutely-ready-for-india-dg-ispr

5 Rafales or 500, Pakistan is 'absolutely ready' for India: DG ISPR

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/q-a-with-paf-fighter-pilot-kaiser-tufail.680606/

5 - Chinese radars, particularly the newer AESA radars are every bit as good as their western counterparts.
6 - The PAF is confident that the Block III JF-17 is going to be as capable as the Rafale in BVR engagements, and have an edge in WVR engagements.
7 - The PAF is confident that its F-16s and JF-17s are going to be able to deal with India's Rafales, given the aforementioned parity in technology and also the PAF's decades of experience in operating its platforms.

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-knows-rafale-better-than-iaf.680362/

PAF Knows Rafale Better Than IAF

In this article, we shed light on these cryptic statements given by seasoned professionals.

RBE2 - Technology from the last decade

We start our discussion by reviewing what Thales, the manufacturer of RBE2 radar used in Rafale, has to say:

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/d.../document/2020-08/Thales RBE2 -2020-HD2_0.pdf
NOTE: Document attached with article as historic proof

The very first thing we note is Thales' description of the T/R modules used in RBE2:

MMIC/GaAs technologies

AESA radars explained

In order to understand the full significance of this short description, let us review AESA radars and the role GaAs and GaN play. Active electronically scanned array radars consist of an array of small transmit/receive modules, each of which is capable of transmitting and receiving radar beams. This differs from classical Pulse Doppler radars where there was a single transmitter and a single receiver. The array of T/R modules create new possibilities:

1. By using principles of electromagnetic superpositioning these radars can ensure a very high quality beam of radiation sent at a precise angle at the target. Similarly, the receiving modules can be tuned towards a specific direction, thus ignoring noise from the surroundings.
2. By dividing the array into sub-arrays, multiple targets can be tracked simultaneously.
3. By using different frequencies in different T/R modules, the radar becomes resilient from jamming.

Each T/R module comprises an antenna element, which feeds signals into an amplifier or transmits signals from the amplifier. Radars used in fighter jets work at frequencies ranging from 2-12 GHz. When these high frequencies are fed into/emitted from the amplifier, the crystal lattice inside the amplifier needs an abundance of electrons, and these electrons need to be able to move around very quickly. In classical semiconductor materials such as Silicon, there aren't enough electrons available, and the mobility of the electrons is also limited. This results in a break down of the semi-conductor properties at high frequencies.

The GaAs vs GaN battle

Using GaAs as the semi-conductor was the first breakthrough which made AESA radars possible. The second breakthrough was the development of MMICs or Monolithic Microwave Integrated Circuits, which allowed GaAs processing units to be deposited in the form of integrated circuits which can compactly fit behind the antenna arrays on an AESA radar.

But, GaAs has its limitations. When compared with GaN, GaAs has limited performance. The interested reader can read the details here:
https://www.electronicdesign.com/te...ence-between-gaas-and-gan-rf-power-amplifiers

The importance of GaN is further explained in a White Paper by China Telecom which was published in 2018:
NOTE: Document attached with article as historical proof
http://www.chinatelecom.com.cn/2018/ct5g/201806/P020180626325685163826.pdf

5G supports higher frequency band, larger carrier bandwidth and more channels, which also puts forward higher demands on analog devices, mainly including ADC/DAC, power amplifier and filter. To support larger carrier bandwidth, ADC/DAC requires higher sampling rate (such as 1GHz). To support frequency above 4GHz and higher power efficiency, power amplifier needs to use GaN materials. The number of filters increases correspondingly with the rapid increase of channels in the base station. Consequently, the volume and weight of the filter should be further reduced by adopting effective methods such as ceramic filter or miniaturization of cavity filter, etc.

The main challenge of analog chipset is lack of industry scale. The output power/efficiency, volume, cost and power consumption of the new power amplifier, and performance of the new filter cannot satisfy commercial requirement of 5G. Especially for RF chipset and terminal chipset integrated with RF front-end, although certain development and production capability have been achieved, further improvement is still needed in terms of industry scale, yield rate, stability and cost-performance. As for millimeter wave band in the future, the industry is required to make greater efforts to meet the higher performance requirements of active and passive component.

This was in 2018. In 2020, we find major Western nations expressing fear of China's superiority in wireless design, which is being attributed to advances in GaN MMICs:

https://www.5gradar.com/news/open-ran-alone-cant-beat-huaweis-5g-dominance-says-parallel-wireless

However, in response to the news from Altiostar and Mavenir, Parallel Wireless says that until the industry can produce Massive MIMO active antennas to the high standards of Huawei, it will be in a constant game of catch-up. And the company says that Huawei’s dominance is largely down to its investment in a single area: gallium nitride semiconductors.

“These 5G active antennas (Massive MIMO) are where Huawei has their lead and developing this line of radios is not going to change that lead,” Papa explained. “Huawei has developed the most power-efficient radios because it’s been investing in gallium nitride semiconductor solutions much more than Ericsson, Nokia, and other independent radio vendors.

Understanding why RBE2 was obsolete before it even arrived in South Asia

This Chinese superiority in GaN chipsets is directly relevant to the blunt claims made by Pakistani military officials. Insha Allah, the AESA radar featured on JF-17 Block 3 shall have GaN MMIC logic. This means, it will be able to handle larger electric power, which results in a longer range for the Block 3 radar as compared to Rafale's RBE2. When paired with PL-15 or PL-XX, Insha Allah, JF-17 Block 3 will maintain PAF's ability to look first and shoot first.

I wish all my fellow Pakistani countrymen a very happy Independence Day. I end with the prayer that May Allah the Almighty Accept Pakistan and Pakistanis for the service of His religion, and make us a source of strength for Islam and Muslims throughout the world. Aameen.

 

[vi-va]

Awesome analysis. PDF should encourage those kind of post.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

It has been stated on different occasions that we are well equipped to deal with the Rafale in its present induction phase. By the time the Indians will get a nick of it our JF-17 block 3 will have sufficient gadgets to counter the Rafale threat effectively.

 

[Trailer23]

Rafale Topics currently running on the Pakistan Air Force Thread:

1. This one.
2. PAF Knows Rafale Better Than IAF !
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-knows-rafale-better-than-iaf.680362/
3. Rafale is not a Game Changer - Senior Analyst Shahzad Chaudhry
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/rafale-is-not-a-game-changer-senior-analyst-shahzad-chaudhry.680031/
4. If Pakistani pilots trained on Rafale, then its weapons system has already been compromised
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/if-p...s-system-has-already-been-compromised.678781/

#2 & #4 are basically the same thing.

Could the Mods please-please just move everything in a single Topic with a title like: Lets talk Rafale

I say this 'cause by the end of the week, there will most certainly be 2 more Topics discussing God knows the weak landing gear or the uncomfortable seat in the cockpit.

@waz @Foxtrot Alpha @LeGenD

 

[Hassan Guy]

So the JF-17 Block 3 is capable no question, slight problem tho...


Where is it?

 

[Vortex]

Recently, Pakistan's top serving and retired military officers have given blunt statements, trivializing the threat posed by India's newly acquired Rafale jets. For the reader's benefit, we summarize these statements here:

https://www.dawn.com/news/1574208/5-rafales-or-500-pakistan-is-absolutely-ready-for-india-dg-ispr


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/q-a-with-paf-fighter-pilot-kaiser-tufail.680606/


https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paf-knows-rafale-better-than-iaf.680362/


In this article, we shed light on these cryptic statements given by seasoned professionals.

RBE2 - Technology from the last decade

We start our discussion by reviewing what Thales, the manufacturer of RBE2 radar used in Rafale, has to say:

https://www.thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/database/document/2020-08/Thales RBE2 -2020-HD2_0.pdf
NOTE: Document attached with article as historic proof

The very first thing we note is Thales' description of the T/R modules used in RBE2:

MMIC/GaAs technologies

AESA radars explained

In order to understand the full significance of this short description, let us review AESA radars and the role GaAs and GaN play. Active electronically scanned array radars consist of an array of small transmit/receive modules, each of which is capable of transmitting and receiving radar beams. This differs from classical Pulse Doppler radars where there was a single transmitter and a single receiver. The array of T/R modules create new possibilities:

1. By using principles of electromagnetic superpositioning these radars can ensure a very high quality beam of radiation sent at a precise angle at the target. Similarly, the receiving modules can be tuned towards a specific direction, thus ignoring noise from the surroundings.
2. By dividing the array into sub-arrays, multiple targets can be tracked simultaneously.
3. By using different frequencies in different T/R modules, the radar becomes resilient from jamming.

Each T/R module comprises an antenna element, which feeds signals into an amplifier or transmits signals from the amplifier. Radars used in fighter jets work at frequencies ranging from 2-12 GHz. When these high frequencies are fed into/emitted from the amplifier, the crystal lattice inside the amplifier needs an abundance of electrons, and these electrons need to be able to move around very quickly. In classical semiconductor materials such as Silicon, there aren't enough electrons available, and the mobility of the electrons is also limited. This results in a break down of the semi-conductor properties at high frequencies.

The GaAs vs GaN battle

Using GaAs as the semi-conductor was the first breakthrough which made AESA radars possible. The second breakthrough was the development of MMICs or Monolithic Microwave Integrated Circuits, which allowed GaAs processing units to be deposited in the form of integrated circuits which can compactly fit behind the antenna arrays on an AESA radar.

But, GaAs has its limitations. When compared with GaN, GaAs has limited performance. The interested reader can read the details here:
https://www.electronicdesign.com/te...ence-between-gaas-and-gan-rf-power-amplifiers

The importance of GaN is further explained in a White Paper by China Telecom which was published in 2018:
NOTE: Document attached with article as historical proof
http://www.chinatelecom.com.cn/2018/ct5g/201806/P020180626325685163826.pdf


This was in 2018. In 2020, we find major Western nations expressing fear of China's superiority in wireless design, which is being attributed to advances in GaN MMICs:

https://www.5gradar.com/news/open-ran-alone-cant-beat-huaweis-5g-dominance-says-parallel-wireless


Understanding why RBE2 was obsolete before it even arrived in South Asia

This Chinese superiority in GaN chipsets is directly relevant to the blunt claims made by Pakistani military officials. Insha Allah, the AESA radar featured on JF-17 Block 3 shall have GaN MMIC logic. This means, it will be able to handle larger electric power, which results in a longer range for the Block 3 radar as compared to Rafale's RBE2. When paired with PL-15 or PL-XX, Insha Allah, JF-17 Block 3 will maintain PAF's ability to look first and shoot first.

I wish all my fellow Pakistani countrymen a very happy Independence Day. I end with the prayer that May Allah the Almighty Accept Pakistan and Pakistanis for the service of His religion, and make us a source of strength for Islam and Muslims throughout the world. Aameen.

your message made this happy independence day a more happy day. Thanks.

Happy Independence Day to you too Dear Brother.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

A great analysis...

Devils lie in the details!!! Unless you've 100% controls over the design and fabrication of GaAs/GaN devices and MMICs (Monolithic Microwave Integrated Circuits) you're always back to the square one!!! For all brilliant "algorithms" to counter your enemy by optimizing the geography, tactics, training etc. aren't truly realized unless every device parameter is well within your capability to modify....

ASELSAN MEHPOD is one such "disruptive" technology vis-à-vis the mortal enemies:

 

[crankthatskunk]

So the JF-17 Block 3 is capable no question, slight problem tho...


Where is it?

Last time I saw it was parked in my back garden.

Slight problem tho.........

The wings were spread to the neighbours gardens.

 

[LeGenD]

@CriticalThought

While that was an informative read but people need to understand that terms such as PESA, AESA, GaA and GaN have 'marketing connotations' and actualized output level will vary from product to product in lieu with numerous design-related considerations beneath the surface (i.e. architecture complexity).

To give all a rough idea:

You see how the actualized output level of each product vary irrespective of the GaN and GaAs factor?

GaN is a leap from GaAs on several counts because of its netpositive impact on design-related considerations of applications (Size; Weight; Power; Cost) in theory but actualized output level of a product is to be taken at face value, and not theoretical considerations when drawing a comparison between products.

This statement: "This means, it will be able to handle larger electric power, which results in a longer range for the Block 3 radar as compared to Rafale's RBE2." - is a THEORETICAL consideration and not actually established.

KLJ-7A (AESA) is a major leap from earlier the earlier KLJ-7 (Pulse Doppler) radar system on many counts without any doubt and a welcome development for JF-17 Thunder platform (much thanks to China) - this is based on a rough comparison between officially disclosed actualized output levels of both products from NRIET (developer) as well as general difference between AESA and Pulse Doppler technologies even in theory.

However, a rough comparison between actualized output levels of NRIET KLJ-7A (AESA) and Thales RBE2-AA (AESA) should be considered for a fair understanding of this theme. This will be possible when JF-17 Thunder Block III will be inducted and more information about KLJ-7A (AESA) will hopefully surface.

NOTE: I am not asserting that Thales RBE2-AA (AESA) is one of the best AESA radar systems out there [on its own] - it is certainly not in the high-end spectrum of Western AESA products in existence. However, you simply declared RBE2-AA (AESA) obsolete based on GaAs factor? Dang...

The older RBE2 (PESA) can notice and track a target having a uniform RCS of 3m^2 around 111 KM mark (Notice-only range around 130 KM mark). The newer RBE2-AA (AESA) is claimed to offer over 50% leap in this parameter alone. RBE2-AA (AESA) also enable engagement of up to 8 targets in one go (impressive capability).

Some of the most powerful radar systems in service contain GaAs TRMs with certain design-related amendments which are not public knowledge and/or rather openly-taught knowledge (Architecture complexity beneath the surface). Blunt explanation(s) of superiority of GaN over GaAs in a Public source is not very telling [on its own].

GaN is certainly enabling emergence of more efficient and powerful products in hindsight - American AMDR and LRDR are two glaring examples - implied to be most advanced and powerful AESA radar systems in the world by far. However, sheer amount of research and resources poured into these projects is also phenomenal to say the least.

Above being said; combat aircraft are expected to receive cues from AWACS in potential airborne battles. It is therefore important to understand what kind of AWACS platforms IAF is inducting lately and which one is compatible with the emerging Rafale F3R fleet.

 

[The Eagle]

We had the same discussion on the board for year but we are in-fact too lazy to search for it and not to create duplicate threads. If we keep up with existing discussion and add our valuable comments; these sort of arguments, discussions, suggestions and exploring the ideas will benefit every reader as well as enhance our knowledge and so will change the way of thinking. Since the information or arguments are scattered all over the Forum due to some sort of a race to create a thread; it will rarely benefit anyone or even if we want to be heard at some high places. Lets all keep it together and also, members are advised to read the OP and continue discussion.

Regards,